From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lamorak.hansenpartnership.com (lamorak.hansenpartnership.com [198.37.111.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1D4B1F30A9; Fri, 13 Jun 2025 17:50:24 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.37.111.173 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1749837027; cv=none; b=W1d882rdnDpzQVHxkfjGYJbyYHBQ68h9+360XwSD0Yaz2zyzRWMbjSyTWxq2odLuQVFLIII3PrH5dMSa1KupoYqD7zXs/7e/CxO7ndc94bxuOdyyVbgwcmYpo/x4My162bDRCQaVAGn33kMdfdLmp2uWK4bqFYc2IFv4amepVLE= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1749837027; c=relaxed/simple; bh=grGD1BatuuubiWHAlkLnKJeKsVSRWGPxb+ckyopQoVM=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=TT/8j4k3ByBz/xoPTZHAwHY5W0lUCfqh2LVH4eowtzYjFeV7R4vkLL3VYIQnwzbu2mzWEcs69tzttlFOzeu8Cj5JeSCn2MLzLleNMjYYt9Xjqx+CFF5ny/81hoqBvUAPBxwYLf9pbEgL0pG8rS523wzZFmvKrwxpLDJMBCI8sMs= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=HansenPartnership.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=HansenPartnership.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b=MGXI7+Jd; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.37.111.173 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=HansenPartnership.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=HansenPartnership.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b="MGXI7+Jd" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1749837023; bh=grGD1BatuuubiWHAlkLnKJeKsVSRWGPxb+ckyopQoVM=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=MGXI7+JdL7JV8hcjQoELyCd8uCa1nl188+1So3o1HvFskKw0gTsvNOsDg3xSvE3MO QZsDsi3Xh9Df9ecR5YOnwpvuQneNCl8C3jjWJfMZ4dzSXChbY3ZFkW2fyFXlOmIt08 sSs/NVI2MtmF+l+ACPUzfCPZbUHKtyiIDcv9F2bU= Received: from [IPv6:2601:5c4:4302:c21::a774] (unknown [IPv6:2601:5c4:4302:c21::a774]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by lamorak.hansenpartnership.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 825111C004F; Fri, 13 Jun 2025 13:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3081793dc1d846dccef07984520fc544f709ca84.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Subject: Re: Module signing and post-quantum crypto public key algorithms From: James Bottomley To: Simo Sorce , Ignat Korchagin , David Howells Cc: Herbert Xu , Stephan Mueller , torvalds@linux-foundation.org, Paul Moore , Lukas Wunner , Clemens Lang , David Bohannon , Roberto Sassu , keyrings@vger.kernel.org, linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 13:50:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <501216.1749826470@warthog.procyon.org.uk> Autocrypt: addr=James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=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 8mT2Eh9SkH+YVOmaKsajgZgrBxA7fWmGoxXswEVxJIFj3vW7yNc0C5HaUdYa5iGOMs4kg2ht4s7yy7NRQuh7BifWjo6BQ6k4S1H+6axZucxhSV1L6zN9d+lr3Xo/vy1unzA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.50.3 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, 2025-06-13 at 13:33 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: > Premise: this problem can't be ignored, even if you think Quantum > Computers are BS, various government regulations are pushing all > commercial entities to require PQ signatures, so we have to deal with > this problem. I agree it's coming, but there's currently no date for post quantum requirement in FIPS, which is the main driver for this. > On Fri, 2025-06-13 at 16:21 +0100, Ignat Korchagin wrote: > > Hi David, > >=20 > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM David Howells > > wrote: > > >=20 > > > Hi, > > >=20 > > > So we need to do something about the impending quantum-related > > > obsolescence of the RSA signatures that we use for module > > > signing, kexec, BPF signing, IMA and a bunch of other things. > >=20 > > Is it that impending? At least for now it seems people are more > > concerned about quantum-safe TLS, so their communications cannot be > > decrypted later. But breaking signatures of open source modules > > probably only makes sense when there is an actual capability to > > break RSA (or ECDSA) >=20 > We do not know when Q-day (or Y2Q if you prefer) will strike, "never" > is still a possibility. >=20 > But, as a data point, IBM just announced a roadmap for a contraption > with 200 error corrected logic qubits. That is substantial progress, > so we cannot assume it will never happen, the risk is too high (it is > not me saying this, it is the cryptography community consensus). Current estimates say Shor's algorithm in "reasonable[1]" time requires around a million qubits to break RSA2048, so we're still several orders of magnitude off that. Grover's only requires just over 2,000 (which is why NIST is worried about that first). Regards, James [1] you can change this by a couple of orders of magnitude depending on how long you're willing to wait