From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lamorak.hansenpartnership.com (lamorak.hansenpartnership.com [198.37.111.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C951227EA3; Fri, 21 Mar 2025 13:19:06 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.37.111.173 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1742563148; cv=none; b=X8jRS3baW5hEn+YY9mnHEuIDACQksWEj7ta6U2bn9nlk56K4r/anam6Sex1irLzLYXik0eAKkcC8BZYm65SUIysieeKKoeEbMlosrXdde5B3Sba6VjcmjVjNXd47wSKcBgAwNtYGwT3+Tu/hR/cq9KZgpTHkDGKGS64MqDcaHRE= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1742563148; c=relaxed/simple; bh=I2bj7WyjQOVY2ffyxmPMxhr0s758RLU3aHBp+mwT598=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=mnHk0pIVz4dTVE0Nyyk1H//S6QV0ONGZ1YZcPIoxKeGcWEBb1jwHnYYxfPW30DTloPefig6r6w4k1xfPdw9GlMb2HkklBJyf3bGQWRjQk7GlaPsX3f4nk3oWKlfkYR2OMSOWFShGjz9Cl5lM6AJewP83g9O+22zhxrmH/FVBw/c= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=HansenPartnership.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=HansenPartnership.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b=vXpB63b3; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.37.111.173 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=HansenPartnership.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=HansenPartnership.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b="vXpB63b3" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1742563145; bh=I2bj7WyjQOVY2ffyxmPMxhr0s758RLU3aHBp+mwT598=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=vXpB63b3Oj5dP/aqpyPpTS+DidSdqy3zVqSEwCzrCwx0cW7wRTUnkEthaoNwoi/hA eJSMOLWJptoOl8W4BdJfcKNwRIvpr9VDmYDMuS8X+TUuPbggzjI4xDrjS3v02W5/f2 u7XQwbThXbsdDqvkQmY1zcoZOpXcuzCy35ODRJA8= Received: from lingrow.int.hansenpartnership.com (unknown [IPv6:2601:5c4:4302:c21::a774]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by lamorak.hansenpartnership.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6ECBF1C038B; Fri, 21 Mar 2025 09:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <540169d212d09dcc412ef86c127f6c8b74fa676f.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH] Revert "integrity: Do not load MOK and MOKx when secure boot be disabled" From: James Bottomley To: lee joey , Lennart Poettering Cc: Jarkko Sakkinen , Mimi Zohar , Roberto Sassu , Dmitry Kasatkin , Eric Snowberg , Paul Moore , James Morris , "Serge E. Hallyn" , linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org, keyrings@vger.kernel.org, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, joeyli Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 09:19:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: Autocrypt: addr=James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; 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 8mT2Eh9SkH+YVOmaKsajgZgrBxA7fWmGoxXswEVxJIFj3vW7yNc0C5HaUdYa5iGOMs4kg2ht4s7yy7NRQuh7BifWjo6BQ6k4S1H+6axZucxhSV1L6zN9d+lr3Xo/vy1unzA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.50.3 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, 2025-03-21 at 15:13 +0800, lee joey wrote: > Hi Lennart, >=20 > Lennart Poettering =E6=96=BC 2025=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C= =8820=E6=97=A5 =E9=80=B1=E5=9B=9B =E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=888:02=E5=AF=AB=E9=81=93= =EF=BC=9A > >=20 > > This reverts commit 92ad19559ea9a8ec6f158480934ae26ebfe2c14f. > >=20 > > This original commit this reverts creates a strange situation: it > > ensures more restrictive behaviour if SecureBoot is off then when > > it is on, which is the opposite of what one would expect. > >=20 > > Typically, one would expect that if SB is off the validation of > > resources during the pre-kernel and kernel initialization is less > > restrictive, not more restrictive. But this check turned the world > > on its head. > >=20 >=20 > SB off means that the chain of trust is broken. Which means that all > mechanisms rely on SB are non-secure. Meanwhile, if the integrity of > kernel can be guaranteed by other mechanism (e.g. TPM), then mok > should not be loaded when SB off. I think the point being made here is that there are other integrity mechanisms than secure boot which can protect the early boot environment. A second argument would be that we still load the UEFI certificates into the chain, and they have exactly the same early boot guarantees as the MOK ones, so we're not being consistent: we should load all of them all the time or none. The boot envelope still has some protections even without secure boot or anything else. The third must be the module one: we've trained users to insert module signing certificates into MOK. If they find that mechanism doesn't work under some possible circumstances they're going to be unhappy. Part of the problem with that last is with the lockdown creep we're increasing the chances that users will see turning off secure boot as the solution to fixing some lockdown problems (say they want hibernate for instance) so having the kernel be unable to load external modules in that case when they're trying to relax protections is highly counter intuitive. Regards, James