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s=20210705; t=1728101204; bh=WuBXXGtzA246CoYPmUbliP+N8JVBJ3B3vjqOZIdS8m8=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc:References:From: In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=l5ldq920mQ233EDxzUWVvBHzCcTjKNL6CR4quNDpJLim+pwB4J133JBHC3rM1TQ6w qa0vEFop4XqNesUTR9ZhIMgcKP/5uFny7y4dLp9y1j1KwPs/8LK+3dLcZK0UDEmcJi SSO2outpuDw2BKnw1da1BWK/negMmVcTJpXKnwa7ONQXxPvuCw1hq31CdEsXbjYqCi MdbFpMDPGj67BbLLlRH5xVs+nPM1uaAVhtWmLrWhExapfm7PX7nYPNUNyoppliERb6 gklf3LkRlfWhc2vLRyuU20c8HSneNvC/SH9hmWw/mjrdHr3BXX40p4N5RfxwxlUD7/ 6RV/svc8s4Wpw== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 21:06:39 -0700 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] tomoyo update for v6.12 To: Tetsuo Handa , Paul Moore Cc: Linus Torvalds , Jonathan Corbet , LKML , linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org References: <0c4b443a-9c72-4800-97e8-a3816b6a9ae2@I-love.SAKURA.ne.jp> <877cavdgsu.fsf@trenco.lwn.net> <19e29693-718c-4667-ab40-948718bcc6f5@I-love.SAKURA.ne.jp> <9387e6bb-484a-443d-ad87-24cf6e976e61@I-love.SAKURA.ne.jp> <2e182814-9317-4de1-ab96-b3b1eeb89733@canonical.com> <8114a37e-1306-47ee-b27e-a61c1c7bca94@I-love.SAKURA.ne.jp> <393a1cd5-a212-4b04-9ff2-744772c21106@canonical.com> Content-Language: en-US From: John Johansen Autocrypt: addr=john.johansen@canonical.com; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/3/24 05:59, Tetsuo Handa wrote: > On 2024/10/03 15:16, Tetsuo Handa wrote: >>>> TOMOYO is one of in-tree modules that can be signed together when building >>>> distribution kernels. Fedora can provide tomoyo.ko as a signed-but-unsupported >>>> module (i.e. excluded from main kernel package that is supported by >>>> distributors but provided as a separate package that is not supported by >>>> distributors). >>>> >>> yes it can, it has chosen not to. As I have said before that is >>> a choice/political reason, not technical. I wish I had a solution to this >>> problem for you but I don't. >> >> What does "it" referring to? Fedora has chosen not to build TOMOYO into Fedora's >> vmlinux. But I haven't heard from Fedora that Fedora won't ship tomoyo.ko as a >> separate package. > > Currently, a Linux distributor is an entity that provides kernel program and > userspace program. But as the kernel code signing getting more important, > the role of a Linux distributor regarding the kernel program might change as > below? > > Currently, people expect that "distributor takes care of handling all bugs > that happens with kernel code built by that distributor". Due to bandwidth > problem, distributor needs to disable kernel code which that distributor cannot > take care of bugs. My understanding is that some distributors started providing > separated kernel packages; the kernel package which that distributor can take > care of bugs and the kernel package which that distributor cannot take care of > bugs. The tomoyo.ko change is intended for being included in the latter package > if that distributor cannot include in the former package. > honestly its easier to just build a separate kernel package with tomoyo builtin. Module packages can be done, but they are a pita. > Since distributor needs to sign kernel code, I think this separation is becoming > more inevitable. That is, people might need to change their expectation to that > "distributor takes care of handling bugs that happens with kernel code in the > former package, and somebody takes care of handling bugs that happens with kernel > code in the latter package", and distributor's role is to compile as many kernel > code as possible and sign all compiled kernel code so that the kernel code is > compiled and shipped (and not tampered) by known entities; something like SSL > certificates providers. > Sure. Distribution already tell users they aren't using supported stuff. Ubuntu builds in selinux, tomoyo, smack. We get a bug we tell them it is community supported. That has some overhead, but really not that much more than responding to the bugs where users ask for feature X to be enabled. Or how to build a kernel with feature X, ... Ubuntu made a different decision than fedora around how best to support users. I am not going to argue its right or wrong, just different. Again getting a distro to change a config/stance is a political problem, not technical.