RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Sam Ravnborg]

The linux kernel is one of the major customers of
sparse and several sparse hackers are very
active on the kernel front too.

How about combining forces and move sparse.git inside
the kernel.

I assume that we can work out something on the
license side so sparse has the correct license??

Benefits doing so:

- Easy access to sparse from within the kernel.
  Doing a make C=2 run is now trivial for everyone

- We (the kernel hackers) has the source readily
  avalibale when we need to hack it.

Drawbacks:

- We need to come up with a solution so it is
  easy to distribute sparse binaries/source packages
  without the need to distribute the full kernel source


The idea has come up before, and now that the kernel
has a tools/ directory we have a place where sparse can live.

And I think Linus can find a way to pull sparse.git
with full history so we do not loose anything doing so.

On the maintainer side of sparse one has to ask Linus to
pull now and then - this is a doable task.

	Sam

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Jeff Garzik]

Sam Ravnborg wrote:
> The linux kernel is one of the major customers of
> sparse and several sparse hackers are very
> active on the kernel front too.
> 
> How about combining forces and move sparse.git inside
> the kernel.
> 
> I assume that we can work out something on the
> license side so sparse has the correct license??
> 
> Benefits doing so:
> 
> - Easy access to sparse from within the kernel.
>   Doing a make C=2 run is now trivial for everyone
> 
> - We (the kernel hackers) has the source readily
>   avalibale when we need to hack it.
> 
> Drawbacks:
> 
> - We need to come up with a solution so it is
>   easy to distribute sparse binaries/source packages
>   without the need to distribute the full kernel source
> 
> 
> The idea has come up before, and now that the kernel
> has a tools/ directory we have a place where sparse can live.
> 
> And I think Linus can find a way to pull sparse.git
> with full history so we do not loose anything doing so.
> 
> On the maintainer side of sparse one has to ask Linus to
> pull now and then - this is a doable task.

Even though I _am_ one of those weirdos that would love to 
sparse+something become the official kernel compiler -- many years from 
now -- I think that they are best kept separate.

sparse -does- serve as "libsparse" to a few independent projects, and 
the current sparse/kernel has clear benefits for those projects.  Being 
a separate project helps keep sparse small, simple, focused and 
portable, IMO.

One specific roadblock in any case is the license issue.  sparse's 
license is incompatible with the kernel's, and it is difficult to change 
the license at present.

	Jeff

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Jeff Garzik]

Jeff Garzik wrote:
> sparse -does- serve as "libsparse" to a few independent projects, and 
> the current sparse/kernel has clear benefits for those projects.  Being 

		^^^^

"current sparse/kernel separation"

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Randy Dunlap]

Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Jeff Garzik wrote:
>> sparse -does- serve as "libsparse" to a few independent projects, and
>> the current sparse/kernel has clear benefits for those projects.  Being 
> 
>         ^^^^
> 
> "current sparse/kernel separation"

Yes, sparse is a general-purpose tool (can be used by lots of apps),
unlike tools/perf/, which is strictly for Linux kernel use.

git is also a user of sparse, and there are plenty of git developers who
are not kernel developers.

-- 
~Randy
LPC 2009, Sept. 23-25, Portland, Oregon
http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Sam Ravnborg]

> 
> Even though I _am_ one of those weirdos that would love to 
> sparse+something become the official kernel compiler -- many years from 
> now -- I think that they are best kept separate.
> 
> sparse -does- serve as "libsparse" to a few independent projects, and 
> the current sparse/kernel has clear benefits for those projects.  Being 
> a separate project helps keep sparse small, simple, focused and 
> portable, IMO.

"housing" the source inside the kernel source tree should not
be an excuse to make this kernel only.
It should rather expose the source.

And then people could extend sparse and say that they contributes
to the linux kernel. Maybe that could make it more sexy.

I at least does not see that housing the source inside the kernel
automatically will make it kernel only.
But I on the other hand are sure we will see additional
contributions / improvements and extended use.

Having sparse inside the kernel is therefore in no way a blocker
for smatch, or Jeff's x86 compilter toy.

	Sam

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Christopher Li]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org> wrote:
>
> The linux kernel is one of the major customers of
> sparse and several sparse hackers are very
> active on the kernel front too.
>
> How about combining forces and move sparse.git inside
> the kernel.

I think it is better keep it separate. The main reason is to have
a clean history.  Sparse has much lighter activity than kernel.
The sparse history will become noise compare to the kernel
one. So it is not easy to bisect sparse bugs. It will sync tons of kernel
source with it.


That being said, I think we still can make sparse friendly to kernel.
For example, we can make a sparse tree sym link under tools of the kernel
tree. The kernel makefile will use that tree if it is there, as if it is part
of the kernel. So we can have the benefit you mention without mess up
the sparse history.

We can even make some build target in the kernel to check out a copy
of the sparse tree in the tools/sparse directory. That should solve the
problem that people need to know where to check out.

Chris

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Samuel Bronson]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Li<sparse@chrisli.org> wrote:

> We can even make some build target in the kernel to check out a copy
> of the sparse tree in the tools/sparse directory. That should solve the
> problem that people need to know where to check out.

About that ... shouldn't the URL on the sparse web page be
"git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/chrisl/sparse.git", not
"git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/sparse.git"?

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Christopher Li]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Samuel Bronson <naesten@gmail.com> wrote:
> About that ... shouldn't the URL on the sparse web page be
> "git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/chrisl/sparse.git", not
> "git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/sparse.git"?

I don't have permission on the sparse web page. Josh is still
the official maintainer. But he has been very quietly on the project recently.
That is the main reason I created my tree. I don't want good patch get
lost.

I did not mean to fork the sparse project. I don't know how to resolve
it either.

Chris

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Samuel Bronson]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Christopher Li<sparse@chrisli.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Samuel Bronson <naesten@gmail.com> wrote:
>> About that ... shouldn't the URL on the sparse web page be
>> "git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/chrisl/sparse.git", not
>> "git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/sparse.git"?
>
> I don't have permission on the sparse web page. Josh is still
> the official maintainer. But he has been very quietly on the project recently.
> That is the main reason I created my tree. I don't want good patch get
> lost.
>
> I did not mean to fork the sparse project. I don't know how to resolve
> it either.

Nobody is going to hold having maybe accidentally become the
maintainer *against* you.
Not to say you won't suffer for it -- people will always be expecting
you to review patches and so forth -- but they won't hold it against
you.

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Christopher Li]

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Samuel Bronson <naesten@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nobody is going to hold having maybe accidentally become the
> maintainer *against* you.
> Not to say you won't suffer for it -- people will always be expecting
> you to review patches and so forth -- but they won't hold it against
> you.

I don't mind reviewing sparse patch at all. That is what I am currently
doing any way. Hacking sparse has been fun for me.

Chris

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[H. Peter Anvin]

Samuel Bronson wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Christopher Li<sparse@chrisli.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Samuel Bronson <naesten@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> About that ... shouldn't the URL on the sparse web page be
>>> "git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/chrisl/sparse.git", not
>>> "git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/devel/sparse/sparse.git"?
>> I don't have permission on the sparse web page. Josh is still
>> the official maintainer. But he has been very quietly on the project recently.
>> That is the main reason I created my tree. I don't want good patch get
>> lost.
>>
>> I did not mean to fork the sparse project. I don't know how to resolve
>> it either.
> 
> Nobody is going to hold having maybe accidentally become the
> maintainer *against* you.
> Not to say you won't suffer for it -- people will always be expecting
> you to review patches and so forth -- but they won't hold it against
> you.

If there is clear consensus within the Sparse devel community that Chris
is the new maintainer, I will give him write access to the relevant
directories.  That's better than having the chrisl/ directory become
official.

	-hpa

-- 
H. Peter Anvin, Intel Open Source Technology Center
I work for Intel.  I don't speak on their behalf.

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Josh Triplett]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 09:20:58PM +0200, Sam Ravnborg wrote:
> The linux kernel is one of the major customers of
> sparse and several sparse hackers are very
> active on the kernel front too.
> 
> How about combining forces and move sparse.git inside
> the kernel.
> 
> Benefits doing so:
> 
> - Easy access to sparse from within the kernel.
>   Doing a make C=2 run is now trivial for everyone
> 
> - We (the kernel hackers) has the source readily
>   avalibale when we need to hack it.
> 
> Drawbacks:
> 
> - We need to come up with a solution so it is
>   easy to distribute sparse binaries/source packages
>   without the need to distribute the full kernel source
> 
> 
> The idea has come up before, and now that the kernel
> has a tools/ directory we have a place where sparse can live.
> 
> And I think Linus can find a way to pull sparse.git
> with full history so we do not loose anything doing so.

I think that Sparse needs to exist as a separate project for the benefit
of all the non-kernel users of Sparse, but at the same time I think
having Sparse in the kernel tree would help kernel developers actually
run Sparse as part of their build process.

Fortunately, Git offers a good solution to this problem: submodules.
linux-2.6 could have Sparse as a submodule under the tools/sparse
directory.  Anyone who checked out linux-2.6 via git could then
near-automatically get a copy of Sparse via git, and release tarballs of
Linux could fairly easily include Sparse.

The way submodules work, a commit in the linux-2.6 repository would refer to
a specific commit in the sparse repostory, so linux-2.6 could always point
to a version of Sparse known to more-or-less work with that version of
Linux.

How does that sound?

- Josh Triplett

Re: RFC: Move sparse.git inside linux-kernel-2.6.git?

[Christopher Li]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Josh Triplett<josh@freedesktop.org> wrote:

> Fortunately, Git offers a good solution to this problem: submodules.
> linux-2.6 could have Sparse as a submodule under the tools/sparse
> directory.  Anyone who checked out linux-2.6 via git could then
> near-automatically get a copy of Sparse via git, and release tarballs of
> Linux could fairly easily include Sparse.

That sounds great. That is actually what I am looking for, clean history
and easy to use in kernel. I describe the similar idea without knowing the
git submodules. Now it can even sync nicely with the kernel.

Chris
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