Master mode support in iwlagn?

Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Erwin Van de Velde]

Dear all,

Are there any plans to add Master mode support to iwlagn? 

Regards,
Erwin

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Johannes Berg]

On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:09 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Are there any plans to add Master mode support to iwlagn? 

Depending on the device, it is (partially) supported as part of P2P/GO
mode, but other than that there are no plans.

johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Erwin Van de Velde]

In my opinion it is a rather big issue. It is available on other platforms and 
can come in handy, it is not just a minor feature that is missing. One wonders 
why Intel does not provide it...

Erwin


On Wednesday 30 May 2012 14:31:11 Johannes Berg wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:09 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > Are there any plans to add Master mode support to iwlagn?
> 
> Depending on the device, it is (partially) supported as part of P2P/GO
> mode, but other than that there are no plans.
> 
> johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Dan Williams]

On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:31 +0200, Johannes Berg wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:09 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > Are there any plans to add Master mode support to iwlagn? 
> 
> Depending on the device, it is (partially) supported as part of P2P/GO
> mode, but other than that there are no plans.

What's the list of devices that will support Master mode?  I recall that
3945 and 4965 never will.  And I assume anything 6xxx-based will get it.
But I was somewhat fuzzy on where the 5xxx series stand.

Dan

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Johannes Berg]

On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 17:32 -0500, Dan Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:31 +0200, Johannes Berg wrote:
> > On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:09 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > > Dear all,
> > > 
> > > Are there any plans to add Master mode support to iwlagn? 
> > 
> > Depending on the device, it is (partially) supported as part of P2P/GO
> > mode, but other than that there are no plans.
> 
> What's the list of devices that will support Master mode?  I recall that
> 3945 and 4965 never will.  And I assume anything 6xxx-based will get it.
> But I was somewhat fuzzy on where the 5xxx series stand.

That's not completely correct. Today, we have released firmware with
support for it for 100, 105, 135, 2000, 2030, 6205, 6030, 1030 and 6x50
devices. 6x00 doesn't have it, and I don't think it will.

I'm pretty sure any 5xxx series (there are a few different ones for
Wimax etc.) will not get it.

johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Erwin Van de Velde]

What is the reasoning behind it? Why provide it for some wireless NICs and not 
for others? Seems quite odd for me and features like Internet sharing over 
wireless are not that exotic, are they?

Best regards,
Erwin


On Thursday 31 May 2012 09:40:22 Johannes Berg wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 17:32 -0500, Dan Williams wrote:
> > On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:31 +0200, Johannes Berg wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 14:09 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > > > Dear all,
> > > > 
> > > > Are there any plans to add Master mode support to iwlagn?
> > > 
> > > Depending on the device, it is (partially) supported as part of P2P/GO
> > > mode, but other than that there are no plans.
> > 
> > What's the list of devices that will support Master mode?  I recall that
> > 3945 and 4965 never will.  And I assume anything 6xxx-based will get it.
> > But I was somewhat fuzzy on where the 5xxx series stand.
> 
> That's not completely correct. Today, we have released firmware with
> support for it for 100, 105, 135, 2000, 2030, 6205, 6030, 1030 and 6x50
> devices. 6x00 doesn't have it, and I don't think it will.
> 
> I'm pretty sure any 5xxx series (there are a few different ones for
> Wimax etc.) will not get it.
> 
> johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Johannes Berg]

Please don't top-post.

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 11:03 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> What is the reasoning behind it? Why provide it for some wireless NICs and not 
> for others? Seems quite odd for me and features like Internet sharing over 
> wireless are not that exotic, are they?

This features requires extensive testing, space in the firmware that not
all devices have, integration, etc. It's not trivial to port to
different devices.

johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Florian Fainelli]

Hi,

On Thursday 31 May 2012 11:09:59 Johannes Berg wrote:
> Please don't top-post.
> 
> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 11:03 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > What is the reasoning behind it? Why provide it for some wireless NICs and 
not 
> > for others? Seems quite odd for me and features like Internet sharing over 
> > wireless are not that exotic, are they?
> 
> This features requires extensive testing, space in the firmware that not
> all devices have, integration, etc. It's not trivial to port to
> different devices.

It certainly is not, but you can get some help from the software mac with that 
regard. Since your device is capable of beaconing for P2P and GO modes, 
Erwin's question is perfectly legitimate with respect to AP support. I suppose 
that you could get it working without too much firmware work.

At the same time, since Intel's iwlwifi series are targetted at the laptop 
market, and not AP/router solutions, it certainly was not in a roadmap to get 
AP mode supported. Apart from pleasing people, that won't make you sell more 
adapters.

My 2 cents.
--
Florian

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Erwin Van de Velde]

On Thursday 31 May 2012 11:20:49 Florian Fainelli wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thursday 31 May 2012 11:09:59 Johannes Berg wrote:
> > Please don't top-post.
> > 
> > On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 11:03 +0200, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > > What is the reasoning behind it? Why provide it for some wireless NICs
> > > and
> 
> not
> 
> > > for others? Seems quite odd for me and features like Internet sharing
> > > over
> > > wireless are not that exotic, are they?
> > 
> > This features requires extensive testing, space in the firmware that not
> > all devices have, integration, etc. It's not trivial to port to
> > different devices.
> 
> It certainly is not, but you can get some help from the software mac with
> that regard. Since your device is capable of beaconing for P2P and GO
> modes, Erwin's question is perfectly legitimate with respect to AP support.
> I suppose that you could get it working without too much firmware work.
> 
> At the same time, since Intel's iwlwifi series are targetted at the laptop
> market, and not AP/router solutions, it certainly was not in a roadmap to
> get AP mode supported. Apart from pleasing people, that won't make you sell
> more adapters.
> 

I am unable to give an opinion about the difficulty of this request, since I 
have never had a look at the code :-) However, theoretically I would expect 
that it is very similar to what is being done for other wireless drivers, but 
I can be wrong...

The interface may be targeted for the laptop market, but as I said, Internet 
sharing is quite handy sometimes and that is why I was looking for the AP 
mode.
I do not understand the last sentence... If you please customers, does that 
not lead to selling more of  your products? So, the question is: how many 
people would like to have this feature? And considering the availability of 
this option in other drivers, software like e.g. NetworkManager, other OSs 
like e.g. Max OSX, etc. I would like to argue that there is indeed a need for 
this feature in the market.

Best regards,
Erwin

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Arend van Spriel]

On 05/31/2012 11:57 AM, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> The interface may be targeted for the laptop market, but as I said, Internet 
> sharing is quite handy sometimes and that is why I was looking for the AP 
> mode.

Looking at your request from a higher level, I think you do not
necessarily need AP mode, right. Or I am just confused by your use of
the term "Internet sharing". What exactly is your usage scenario?

Gr. AvS

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Erwin Van de Velde]

I have one ethernet connection and want to share that connection over 
wireless, preferably in AP mode although I guess ad hoc mode is possible too. 
Just not sure if NetworkManager supports that.

Grz,
Erwin


On Thursday 31 May 2012 14:01:40 Arend van Spriel wrote:
> On 05/31/2012 11:57 AM, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > The interface may be targeted for the laptop market, but as I said,
> > Internet sharing is quite handy sometimes and that is why I was looking
> > for the AP mode.
> 
> Looking at your request from a higher level, I think you do not
> necessarily need AP mode, right. Or I am just confused by your use of
> the term "Internet sharing". What exactly is your usage scenario?
> 
> Gr. AvS

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Arend van Spriel]

On 05/31/2012 02:16 PM, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> I have one ethernet connection and want to share that connection over 
> wireless, preferably in AP mode although I guess ad hoc mode is possible too. 
> Just not sure if NetworkManager supports that.

NetworkManager does support ad-hoc, but your hardware need to support
beacon transmission for that as well. You could consider buying an AP.
They are not that expensive ;-)

Gr. AvS

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Johannes Berg]

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 14:26 +0200, Arend van Spriel wrote:
> On 05/31/2012 02:16 PM, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > I have one ethernet connection and want to share that connection over 
> > wireless, preferably in AP mode although I guess ad hoc mode is possible too. 
> > Just not sure if NetworkManager supports that.
> 
> NetworkManager does support ad-hoc, but your hardware need to support
> beacon transmission for that as well. You could consider buying an AP.
> They are not that expensive ;-)

iwlwifi does support IBSS for all devices, just not AP mode.

johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Dan Williams]

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 14:26 +0200, Arend van Spriel wrote:
> On 05/31/2012 02:16 PM, Erwin Van de Velde wrote:
> > I have one ethernet connection and want to share that connection over 
> > wireless, preferably in AP mode although I guess ad hoc mode is possible too. 
> > Just not sure if NetworkManager supports that.
> 
> NetworkManager does support ad-hoc, but your hardware need to support
> beacon transmission for that as well. You could consider buying an AP.
> They are not that expensive ;-)

The problem with Ad-Hoc as "hotspot" is that many devices like Android
phones simply ignore adhoc networks due to security issues (as stupid as
that may be, since anyone can set up an AP-mode network too).  Which is
why real AP mode is nice, but clearly not all wifi hardware is going to
support it.

Dan

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Dan,

> > > I have one ethernet connection and want to share that connection over 
> > > wireless, preferably in AP mode although I guess ad hoc mode is possible too. 
> > > Just not sure if NetworkManager supports that.
> > 
> > NetworkManager does support ad-hoc, but your hardware need to support
> > beacon transmission for that as well. You could consider buying an AP.
> > They are not that expensive ;-)
> 
> The problem with Ad-Hoc as "hotspot" is that many devices like Android
> phones simply ignore adhoc networks due to security issues (as stupid as
> that may be, since anyone can set up an AP-mode network too).  Which is
> why real AP mode is nice, but clearly not all wifi hardware is going to
> support it.

the security issue is the missing proper encryption for IBSS networks.
Even while in theory you can have RSN, but who is really supporting this
on the other end.

For example ConnMan ignores IBSS networks as well for the exact above
reason. And it only provides Tethering via AP mode with RSN. If the
hardware does not support it, then you can not use Tethering.

We have enough crappy Windows machines and printers trying to play IBSS
tricks all the time. We do not need any extra ones ;)

Regards

Marcel

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Johannes Berg]

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 18:52 +0200, Marcel Holtmann wrote:

> > The problem with Ad-Hoc as "hotspot" is that many devices like Android
> > phones simply ignore adhoc networks due to security issues (as stupid as
> > that may be, since anyone can set up an AP-mode network too).  Which is
> > why real AP mode is nice, but clearly not all wifi hardware is going to
> > support it.
> 
> the security issue is the missing proper encryption for IBSS networks.
> Even while in theory you can have RSN, but who is really supporting this
> on the other end.

We are actually supporting this now, and supposedly it interoperates
with Windows too :-)

johannes

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Johannes,

> > > The problem with Ad-Hoc as "hotspot" is that many devices like Android
> > > phones simply ignore adhoc networks due to security issues (as stupid as
> > > that may be, since anyone can set up an AP-mode network too).  Which is
> > > why real AP mode is nice, but clearly not all wifi hardware is going to
> > > support it.
> > 
> > the security issue is the missing proper encryption for IBSS networks.
> > Even while in theory you can have RSN, but who is really supporting this
> > on the other end.
> 
> We are actually supporting this now, and supposedly it interoperates
> with Windows too :-)

I still don't see the benefit of it. Android and iOS do proper Tethering
via AP mode. And so does Tizen since it uses ConnMan.

IBSS and also WEP support can be remove for all I care ;)

Regards

Marcel

Re: Master mode support in iwlagn?

[Erwin Van de Velde]

On Thursday 31 May 2012 14:26:49 Arend van Spriel wrote:
> 
> NetworkManager does support ad-hoc, but your hardware need to support
> beacon transmission for that as well. You could consider buying an AP.
> They are not that expensive ;-)

True, but I have enough to carry around already :-) And what if the MAC 
address needs to be registered first? From my point of view, it would be a lot 
easier if AP mode was supported... But you already guessed that probably, 
otherwise I would not have asked it in the first place, would I? ;-)

It is still (too) hard for Linux users to find a laptop with a wireless card 
that supports monitor mode, AP mode, decent packet injection, etc.

If you are wondering why I need that, I give a course about wireless 
networking and it is easier if I can test things from my own machine instead 
of having to run to the lab all the time :-)

Grz,
Erwin