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[199.106.103.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a92af1059eb24-1233693c619sm3331263c88.7.2026.01.14.11.15.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Jan 2026 11:15:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <63ff0362-4ee4-4f13-a212-dc1351eefe08@oss.qualcomm.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2026 11:15:16 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [DESIGN RFC v3] AP Architecture for Wi-Fi-8 Multi-AP Coordination (MAPC) To: Johannes Berg , Abhishek Rajkapur Suryawanshi , ath12k@lists.infradead.org, hostap@lists.infradead.org Cc: linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org References: <653a4207-38f8-408c-8067-c4960c11a71f@oss.qualcomm.com> <05381371a41f154058429f0a1079204c4a454f45.camel@sipsolutions.net> <59cec65b29ded381c85d1be943d88e956a4b7e74.camel@sipsolutions.net> From: Jeff Johnson Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <59cec65b29ded381c85d1be943d88e956a4b7e74.camel@sipsolutions.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-GUID: CkxF8ANe04wdkG4oOJs_FGqKYve04GH- X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: CkxF8ANe04wdkG4oOJs_FGqKYve04GH- X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjYwMTE0MDE2MCBTYWx0ZWRfX/HtKvbBQ71oA 94NLeui0Y9xVZ11+eBO3l/y0UKp3cYR/c5iKFK41y6ngOWGcmxFoAajcaOy5iq1USRqmkCtubUV lNL8DUokqgYKevVm78ZRKfdhbgy/WDekvoufiXJNBLTWUc14HW4DL0vwM8a+PR6AUxWZc2l4f8h /WMycc4VGcIHPzJjjT4BOVv4UKTEvHPXtV23/NiGl9EzftWoflS2+UWAWj6RYziXzZxVuVfD0eH b8Uhqd9xcaH8o0m2wBGmBp5fv3yKWEYkVqAzGF6q7+wrBIFiZoahB+UsAssNPlo4+zaNK/JbEN+ JUQN1NqEcFlVboVKC9vmvw+cD1Hr8tJ0Fb77Rtc6Q5UOy4OIxbaOmhX4R34nyZTEM/JIBytdg6j JLhCqas7HMpqsyLkiyIuIhHCUgbWs4B8EOYqgR6pwGctt6KoDuOz/khc6JM2zft7HijrKD79H4m tlz3qJoNSn01wgdNdRw== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=JvT8bc4C c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6967eb47 cx=c_pps a=kVLUcbK0zfr7ocalXnG1qA==:117 a=JYp8KDb2vCoCEuGobkYCKw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=vUbySO9Y5rIA:10 a=s4-Qcg_JpJYA:10 a=VkNPw1HP01LnGYTKEx00:22 a=qCjLGQ0mDaV0PH0PGrMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=vr4QvYf-bLy2KjpDp97w:22 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1121,Hydra:6.1.9,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-01-14_06,2026-01-14_01,2025-10-01_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=typeunknown authscore=0 authtc= authcc= route=outbound adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.22.0-2512120000 definitions=main-2601140160 On 1/12/2026 11:18 AM, Johannes Berg wrote: > On Mon, 2026-01-12 at 20:12 +0100, Johannes Berg wrote: >> >> Why do you always want to let firmware be in control of everything? >> Seems at least for some of this you'd really want the upper layers to >> control it for purposes of coordination? How does the FW even know which >> other AP it can coordinate with, isn't that something a network >> controller would determine? > > A less generous reading of this could be: you guys want everything to be > controlled by FW, so you don't have to open-source it in hostapd. Now > you realize oops, don't really want to do all the security handshake in > FW, so we need to ask hostapd and then we need keys and stations and all > this stuff. So let's build something nobody else can use, upstream it > and we get the best of both worlds - others will maintain the mac80211 > code for us anyway. > > Am I wrong? Is there a technical reason for not simply doing MAPC > discovery/agreement negotiation etc. in hostapd as well, based on > driver/hw/fw capabilities, and then you don't need all these strange > "triggered by firmware" flows? My perception is that Qualcomm would love for all the Wi-Fi 8 functionality to be in userspace and nl/cfg/mac80211 since then there would be no code maintenance overhead on our part -- just you and the userspace maintainers. But there are concerns about latency, and internal consensus is that some aspects of this functionality has to be handled in firmware (or even hardware) in order to meet customer KPIs. This comes from our history of supporting large-scale deployments of APs, and the expectations of how Wi-Fi 8 will make things better. That is why we are posting design RFCs, so that you, as well as engineers from other vendors, can review our proposals and give your feedback and counter-proposals. We want to avoid developing what might be an architecturally pure design that doesn't actually meet customer needs. And apologies for the "firehose" of both design and code, but we have a desire to ship Wi-Fi 8 products using upstream code. I've passed along information that you want our engineering team to focus on the base NPCA patches so that there is the appropriate foundation. But in parallel we do also hope there is engagement from other vendors on the Design RFCs we are posting. Our goal is to upstream as much AP functionality as you can absorb. /jeff