From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sipsolutions.net (s3.sipsolutions.net [168.119.38.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C22BA479897; Thu, 6 Aug 2026 14:49:52 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=168.119.38.16 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1786027796; cv=none; b=tM4mbeEZsHTAMS0LEiX6s2S0fQ6QYMpwemdpRiPCbEZYiK70bJaX3CG0gACAEiwnLs+AA1m17mfyQ4SOFiFU21UA76qlEvk3vmz1kyxazqdShR5HvW9qUjSlarWwehqoY1dHZF+q6XqZZ4iE6Aznq+SYPgaf65LUVtjH2Wf8dDw= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1786027796; c=relaxed/simple; bh=9A4kNYJ+OPQWURMkmJmD/xejOeQ0Mt7S6vGtMcOcM8g=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=IKMKAp4DoWBv8Hi1fyG2PIQq1aA4ZckZTdv1B7Wbr8iRzKll+e700Kci1MLP6JEwhegHUgB0W8czcdquO40RskFuN7dvWrCsb3IPWTT32AXsiUcsI1+9zflSkaWzK8SC4/8nmFCCAIVkp0luc3e3BpmliBkOg7hd2/3ZefLAfY0= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=permerror header.from=sipsolutions.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sipsolutions.net; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sipsolutions.net header.i=@sipsolutions.net header.b=GoulDxPa; arc=none smtp.client-ip=168.119.38.16 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=permerror header.from=sipsolutions.net Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sipsolutions.net Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sipsolutions.net header.i=@sipsolutions.net header.b="GoulDxPa" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sipsolutions.net; s=mail; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:References:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-To: Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID; bh=9A4kNYJ+OPQWURMkmJmD/xejOeQ0Mt7S6vGtMcOcM8g=; t=1786027793; x=1787237393; b=GoulDxPaySwG664ao8DPwoQGVK1JJ0brMLSi8gBqMui9Gcw nO7xFnZeAGql6TeQxW7eBp2CFjLVpFRskkqXe2yNNuhYyVuvsUacjPnf3PK6XGhvHE5rBxK60fBsQ ycOdyhSXOqT6/zUySHjyg4C3KYBt91vLNvRVg0zVm2TwdNlSUoOC9t9QOmgTXCe+S6hXUGj34R5/r dYC1AIxDk8G2gvEP8Ke9IWIIKFD2W85n3fObOM2raqGS5iH62uX6gDwRPK5MrrbDW35LN3/2ZudHM FYa9lyy9ZzifInsX5sGDGldxvTFucpcLZjL7viZKT12wpYbdUBY9NhtSRz++Cgrw==; Received: by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__ECDSA_SECP256R1_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.98.2) (envelope-from ) id 1wrzPm-00000009EPO-2YzA; Thu, 06 Aug 2026 16:49:46 +0200 Message-ID: <8a0020fb5318ed645b0331d3790a75f83c0ee443.camel@sipsolutions.net> Subject: Re: sysbot AI patches and wireless From: Johannes Berg To: Slawomir Stepien Cc: Aleksandr Nogikh , syzbot , syzkaller-bugs@googlegroups.com, linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, syzbot@lists.linux.dev, Krystian Kaniewski Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2026 16:49:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <068e46b5-0c88-4432-959a-b9400d9691ee@mail.kernel.org> <3b6c46b6d79f3a0e0ded2967db3cfd469314b05c.camel@sipsolutions.net> <6007f37089d14eb14deed54d34921f0ef691e1fa.camel@sipsolutions.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.60.2 (3.60.2-1.fc44) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-malware-bazaar: not-scanned Hi Slawomir, > > But I really cannot make that judgement call myself for every single > > issue like that, if I could, see above, I could be doing all of this > > myself. Need the contributors to do that. Slawomir did that after I > > prompted (pun intended!) him to do that, and it didn't work out so well >=20 > It didn't? Or it did? :) Sorry, indeed, it *did* - thank you. > Well I do not have new version of the patch yet, but I'm still > investigating correct approach and testing a lot. I see now, that I shoul= d do that in the 1st place. > I'm sorry for that. No worries. This in just after our exchange here: https://lore.kernel.org/ksummit/87y0ekm9nw.fsf@trenco.lwn.net/ It's definitely part of the job to train new contributors, and it's actually very rewarding to see someone grow from first time contributor. Sadly, now there's basically no "first-contact signal" that says "I care about this more than landing this one patch". :-/ Getting a well-formed (and well-argued) patch used to be worth something, now it's basically not. See also Dan's "pair programming" reply. But I see the other side too; my first patch to the kernel, more than two decades ago, was a similar thing, though argued first over IRC. People need a support community to start out anywhere. Also, I think with patches part of the issue is that there's an implicit assumption that it'll get reviewed/merged/etc. - but as a submitter you don't really have anyone to ask questions about that patch and process before sending (unless you were hired into a Linux team or something). I obviously don't have a solution to this - I'm just honestly stating that it doesn't scale for me as the maintainer to be providing this, certainly not in the format that syzbot's patch-as-a-service encourages, but more generally also not. A few new folks per year is fine, a few per month can't work. Some people hang out on IRC (#linux-wireless, myself too), some people build experience in other communities like OpenWRT first (or just remain there), etc. Part of the issue is that we haven't _really_ documented any of this as the wireless or even broader kernel community, but things also shift frequently anyway. Another part is - not saying that's the case for you - that some people just don't care and all they want is land patches, so they'll go across subsystems, never learn one, and just hope something sticks somewhere. Meanwhile, I hope you're not too discouraged by all this, again, sorry you got caught in the cross-fire here. (I'm going to be on vacation, we can pick up the thread about your specific patches in September.) johannes