What's up with this list?

What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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Hi,

Now an then I get messages like this:

++·································
Your membership in the mailing list xfs has been disabled due to
excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
18-Sep-2014.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more reminders like
this before your membership in the list is deleted.

To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message
(leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at

...

·································++-


Bounces? I'm subscribed to several mail lists, and this is the only one 
"complaining". And as I do not know what messages bounced, I can not 
investigate it.

My guess is that those emails were clear and flagrant spam, and as such 
were rejected by my ISP.

The mail list should refuse them on entry and not resend them to the 
listers.

- -- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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_______________________________________________
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Re: What's up with this list?

[Troy McCorkell]

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On 09/18/2014 07:46 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Now an then I get messages like this:
>
> ++·································
> Your membership in the mailing list xfs has been disabled due to
> excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> 18-Sep-2014.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
> you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more reminders like
> this before your membership in the list is deleted.
>
> To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message
> (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at
>
> ...
>
> ·································++-
>
>
> Bounces? I'm subscribed to several mail lists, and this is the only 
> one "complaining". And as I do not know what messages bounced, I can 
> not investigate it.
>
> My guess is that those emails were clear and flagrant spam, and as 
> such were rejected by my ISP.
>
> The mail list should refuse them on entry and not resend them to the 
> listers.
>
> - -- Cheers,
>        Carlos E. R.
>        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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> =CBjB
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xfs mailing list
> xfs@oss.sgi.com
> http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs
>    
Carlos,

I will forward your email to the SGI IT group.

Thanks,
Troy McCorkell


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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.11.1509161452080.25528@minas-tirith.valinor>


El 2014-09-18 a las 10:33 -0500, Troy McCorkell escribió:
> On 09/18/2014 07:46 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>       Hi,
>
>       Now an then I get messages like this:
>
>       ++·································
>       Your membership in the mailing list xfs has been disabled due to
>       excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
>       18-Sep-2014.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
>       you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more reminders like
>       this before your membership in the list is deleted.
>
>       To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message
>       (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at
>
>       ...
>
>       ·································++-
> 
>
>       Bounces? I'm subscribed to several mail lists, and this is the only one "complaining". And as I do not know
>       what messages bounced, I can not investigate it.
>
>       My guess is that those emails were clear and flagrant spam, and as such were rejected by my ISP.
>
>       The mail list should refuse them on entry and not resend them to the listers.
>
>       - -- Cheers,
>              Carlos E. R.
>              (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
> 
> Carlos,
> 
> I will forward your email to the SGI IT group.

Well, I got no further feedback, and the issue continues, a year later.

As I see it, it goes like this:

Spam is sent to the list. The list forwards it to subscribers. Some mail 
servers, like my ISP, point blank refuse to accept what is flagrant spam; 
not a doubt about it, it doesn't reach the spam folder. That spam probably 
breaks a rule such as having no valid sender domain, breaking SPF, 
something. I don't know for sure, because I can not see the logs of my 
ISP. But the oss.sgi.com admin can, surely.


The problem for me is that this list server automatically unsubscribes me, 
and I have to re-subscribe, posibly loosing interveening posts.


I suggest that the list server implements filters to remove those spam 
mails on entry, instead of forwarding them. Alternatively, other mail list 
servers send a probe email to the subscriber; if the probe bounces, twice, 
then the subscription is temporarily disabled. But they don't unsubscribe 
people because some "list" posts bounce, unless it is excesive.


- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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_______________________________________________
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http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs

Re: What's up with this list?

[Troy McCorkell]

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On 09/16/2015 07:53 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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> Hash: SHA256
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> Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.11.1509161452080.25528@minas-tirith.valinor>
>
>
> El 2014-09-18 a las 10:33 -0500, Troy McCorkell escribió:
>> On 09/18/2014 07:46 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>>       Hi,
>>
>>       Now an then I get messages like this:
>>
>>       ++·································
>>       Your membership in the mailing list xfs has been disabled due to
>>       excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
>>       18-Sep-2014.  You will not get any more messages from this list 
>> until
>>       you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more 
>> reminders like
>>       this before your membership in the list is deleted.
>>
>>       To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this 
>> message
>>       (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation 
>> page at
>>
>>       ...
>>
>>       ·································++-
>>
>>
>>       Bounces? I'm subscribed to several mail lists, and this is the 
>> only one "complaining". And as I do not know
>>       what messages bounced, I can not investigate it.
>>
>>       My guess is that those emails were clear and flagrant spam, and 
>> as such were rejected by my ISP.
>>
>>       The mail list should refuse them on entry and not resend them 
>> to the listers.
>>
>>       - -- Cheers,
>>              Carlos E. R.
>>              (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
>>
>> Carlos,
>>
>> I will forward your email to the SGI IT group.
>
> Well, I got no further feedback, and the issue continues, a year later.
>
> As I see it, it goes like this:
>
> Spam is sent to the list. The list forwards it to subscribers. Some 
> mail servers, like my ISP, point blank refuse to accept what is 
> flagrant spam; not a doubt about it, it doesn't reach the spam folder. 
> That spam probably breaks a rule such as having no valid sender 
> domain, breaking SPF, something. I don't know for sure, because I can 
> not see the logs of my ISP. But the oss.sgi.com admin can, surely.
>
>
> The problem for me is that this list server automatically unsubscribes 
> me, and I have to re-subscribe, posibly loosing interveening posts.
>
>
> I suggest that the list server implements filters to remove those spam 
> mails on entry, instead of forwarding them. Alternatively, other mail 
> list servers send a probe email to the subscriber; if the probe 
> bounces, twice, then the subscription is temporarily disabled. But 
> they don't unsubscribe people because some "list" posts bounce, unless 
> it is excesive.
>
>
> - -- Cheers
>        Carlos E. R.
>
>        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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> =oF/M
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xfs mailing list
> xfs@oss.sgi.com
> http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs
>    

I'll chat with the SGI IT group again.

Thanks,
Troy

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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On 2015-09-17 18:54, Troy McCorkell wrote:
> On 09/16/2015 07:53 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:


> I'll chat with the SGI IT group again.

Thanks :-)

- -- 
Cheers / Saludos,

		Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: What's up with this list?

[Troy McCorkell]

On 09/17/2015 01:31 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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>
> On 2015-09-17 18:54, Troy McCorkell wrote:
>    
>> On 09/16/2015 07:53 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>      
>
>    
>> I'll chat with the SGI IT group again.
>>      
> Thanks :-)
>
> - -- 
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> 		Carlos E. R.
>
>    (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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>
> _______________________________________________
> xfs mailing list
> xfs@oss.sgi.com
> http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs
>    
Carlos,

I discussed the spam issue on the xfs@oss.sgi.com mailing list with SGI IT.

xfs@oss.sgi.com is an open list and does not require people to be members
of the list to post to it.    The spam filters applied to 
xfs@oss.sgi.com are
as aggressive as they can be and still allow for an open list.

Next option would be to add a moderator to the list.   Adding a moderator
would interfere with non-list members posting to the list.

Thanks,
Troy

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Dave Chinner]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:01:45AM -0500, Troy McCorkell wrote:
> xfs@oss.sgi.com is an open list and does not require people to be members
> of the list to post to it.    The spam filters applied to
> xfs@oss.sgi.com are
> as aggressive as they can be and still allow for an open list.
> 
> Next option would be to add a moderator to the list.   Adding a moderator
> would interfere with non-list members posting to the list.

Moderation is not an option because of this interference and the
burden it puts on the moderator to respond in a timely fashion.

If the spam rejection does not improve our next option is to move to
the linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org list - the vger infrastructure is not
perfect, but it does have better spam rejection than the current
filtering on this list.  This may be the best long-term solution to
the problem, but it does involve short term pain for everyone.

Cheers,

Dave.
-- 
Dave Chinner
david@fromorbit.com

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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El 2015-09-19 a las 08:56 +1000, Dave Chinner escribió:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:01:45AM -0500, Troy McCorkell wrote:
>> xfs@oss.sgi.com is an open list and does not require people to be members
>> of the list to post to it.    The spam filters applied to
>> xfs@oss.sgi.com are
>> as aggressive as they can be and still allow for an open list.
>>
>> Next option would be to add a moderator to the list.   Adding a moderator
>> would interfere with non-list members posting to the list.
>
> Moderation is not an option because of this interference and the
> burden it puts on the moderator to respond in a timely fashion.

There is no need to go to extreme measures; I think it is easier than 
that. I do not have access to the oss.sgi.com logs, but surely the admins 
can, and find out what were the posts that bounced and for what reason.

My guess is that they were sent from an invalid domain (no dns), or no 
reverse dns, or something like that (not content analysis, that comes 
once the mail is accepted and stored). Surely a filter for those is simple 
enough to implement, and should not harm other participants.

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Fanael Linithien]

2015-09-19 0:56 GMT+02:00 Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>:
> If the spam rejection does not improve our next option is to move to
> the linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org list - the vger infrastructure is not
> perfect, but it does have better spam rejection than the current
> filtering on this list.  This may be the best long-term solution to
> the problem, but it does involve short term pain for everyone.

I'd say do it. I don't remember getting any spam from vger lists,
while here it's several mails a day.

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Arkadiusz Miśkiewicz]

On Saturday 19 of September 2015, Dave Chinner wrote:
> our next option is to move to
> the linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org list - the vger infrastructure is not
> perfect, 

Ough.

That's replacing bad infrastructure with better infrastructure and hostile 
postmaster as a "bonus".

> Cheers,
> Dave.

-- 
Arkadiusz Miśkiewicz, arekm / ( maven.pl | pld-linux.org )

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.11.1509191350240.24753@minas-tirith.valinor>


El 2015-09-19 a las 02:30 +0200, Carlos E. R. escribió:

> There is no need to go to extreme measures; I think it is easier than
> that. I do not have access to the oss.sgi.com logs, but surely the admins
> can, and find out what were the posts that bounced and for what reason.
>
> My guess is that they were sent from an invalid domain (no dns), or no
> reverse dns, or something like that (not content analysis, that comes
> once the mail is accepted and stored). Surely a filter for those is simple
> enough to implement, and should not harm other participants.

Alternatively, don't automatically disable subscriptions that fast:

    Your membership in the mailing list xfs has been disabled due to
    excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
    16-Sep-2015.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
    you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more reminders like
    this before your membership in the list is deleted.

    To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message
    (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at


THAT is the problem I'm having. The spam I get I can filter out, it is not 
that bad.

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos Maiolino]

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 08:56:24AM +1000, Dave Chinner wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:01:45AM -0500, Troy McCorkell wrote:
> > xfs@oss.sgi.com is an open list and does not require people to be members
> > of the list to post to it.    The spam filters applied to
> > xfs@oss.sgi.com are
> > as aggressive as they can be and still allow for an open list.
> > 
> > Next option would be to add a moderator to the list.   Adding a moderator
> > would interfere with non-list members posting to the list.
> 
> Moderation is not an option because of this interference and the
> burden it puts on the moderator to respond in a timely fashion.
> 
> If the spam rejection does not improve our next option is to move to
> the linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org list - the vger infrastructure is not
> perfect, but it does have better spam rejection than the current
> filtering on this list.  This may be the best long-term solution to
> the problem, but it does involve short term pain for everyone.
> 

+1 for that, the pain is not that much, and we've discussed moving xfs list to
vger.kernel.org for a while, I really don't see a reason to do so, other than
people needing to update their e-mail addresses and maybe git configurations. To
relief even more the pain, xfs@sgi, could just forward the e-mails to linux-xfs
with a InReplyTo modified to linux-xfs even.

Althouh, I'm not sure how feasible is the last part.

> Cheers,
> 
> Dave.
> -- 
> Dave Chinner
> david@fromorbit.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> xfs mailing list
> xfs@oss.sgi.com
> http://oss.sgi.com/mailman/listinfo/xfs

-- 
Carlos

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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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El 2015-09-19 a las 13:52 +0200, Carlos E. R. escribió:

>   To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message
>   (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at
>
>
> THAT is the problem I'm having. The spam I get I can filter out, it is not
> that bad.

See how frequent it is:

X   4434 14-08-31 16:20 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3931)   confirm c706bfb352b42c74758b652ef1378b81002b724b 
X   4769 14-09-18 01:53 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4169)   confirm e22de168da621e139335f532773c160ba9e26da9 
X   5291 14-10-17 11:28 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4169)   confirm fd7fd355f3c9235210d1db382713e95e29760dd5 
X   5628 14-11-06 06:46 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4165)   confirm 61426741797fd5050e2f1f55d0dc5260cd4f9684 
X   6196 14-12-27 05:42 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4166)   confirm 8a23e93612ea5b3287ab1b47dfeeb40ff96c6db7 
X   6787 15-02-10 05:20 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3733)   confirm 8417559808c8eee163d93343717004747a589fe9 
X   7282 15-03-15 22:13 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3733)   confirm 5f12062a2ad09d461a99e934af624b776abb64ae 
X   7529 15-03-28 13:29 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3735)   confirm 5cadd0c89284d0ec3e6e1dbf4e26d7717eb3770c 
X   8062 15-05-14 04:35 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4224)   confirm 0d8739847c3b8c11df497bd57e4f39831a110fe4 
X   8100 15-05-25 09:57 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4224)   confirm b0967d8558a96e20601b3259c8cb512f61f73212 
X   8260 15-06-06 22:02 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4221)   confirm 1f01a2b717a50d6df4fdb37eec5628bd645e105b 
X   8430 15-06-20 08:43 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4223)   confirm 2d9b43b9bf7db276432ef4e527dbcd81ed6b3c12 
X   8556 15-06-30 11:44 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3736)   confirm 4953159bc1315891147b0b3d0e3a34adaeccff34 
X   8719 15-07-16 09:00 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3735)   confirm 72781f7c7177a3fd5e21d3f487bae5d42082abfe 
X   8747 15-07-23 10:04 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (3736)   confirm b11f194b6da57b46a62a13ae185bbc4677fd9120 
X   8885 15-08-03 10:36 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4220)   confirm 94cf2c9ffd5f48909d3aa5d0159d310756ae8a14 
X   9077 15-08-12 10:03 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4223)   confirm 12ee9b4720921c68209e95255fbe1e130444c4b6 
X   9311 15-08-23 10:31 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4223)   confirm fd0b55cf93d7323c177de55f7a981bf13c7f699b 
X   9635 15-09-04 10:55 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4222)   confirm bd1e72efe20cf78e76a605db5d0a7c7de0ab3318 
X   9854 15-09-16 01:08 xfs-request@oss.sgi.com  (4225)   confirm c107ce18b6e885bcc572a65cd7dc73ecba7334dc

- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: What's up with this list?

[Troy McCorkell]

On 09/18/2015 05:56 PM, Dave Chinner wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:01:45AM -0500, Troy McCorkell wrote:
>    
>> xfs@oss.sgi.com is an open list and does not require people to be members
>> of the list to post to it.    The spam filters applied to
>> xfs@oss.sgi.com are
>> as aggressive as they can be and still allow for an open list.
>>
>> Next option would be to add a moderator to the list.   Adding a moderator
>> would interfere with non-list members posting to the list.
>>      
> Moderation is not an option because of this interference and the
> burden it puts on the moderator to respond in a timely fashion.
>
> If the spam rejection does not improve our next option is to move to
> the linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org list - the vger infrastructure is not
> perfect, but it does have better spam rejection than the current
> filtering on this list.  This may be the best long-term solution to
> the problem, but it does involve short term pain for everyone.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave.
>    

I understand moderation is not an option.   Just reviewing the options.

oss.sgi.com is not a stand alone system when it comes to email.   All 
emails received
by oss.sgi.com first pass through the SGI corporate spam filters.    
Several of the
old defunct mailing lists on oss.sgi.com have been configured as spam-traps.
Additional spam filters have been added specifically for oss.sgi.com.
And yet spam continues to hit the list.

I'll continue the conversation with the SGI IT group.

Thanks,
Troy


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Re: What's up with this list?

[Carlos E. R.]

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El 2015-09-21 a las 10:13 -0500, Troy McCorkell escribió:

> I understand moderation is not an option.   Just reviewing the options.
>
> oss.sgi.com is not a stand alone system when it comes to email.  All 
> emails received by oss.sgi.com first pass through the SGI corporate spam 
> filters.  Several of the old defunct mailing lists on oss.sgi.com have 
> been configured as spam-traps. Additional spam filters have been added 
> specifically for oss.sgi.com. And yet spam continues to hit the list.
>
> I'll continue the conversation with the SGI IT group.


At opensuse mail lists they tried for a year or two opening some mail 
lists, so that subscription was not required for posting, on some of the 
lists. The ammount of spam increased. Aparently all measures they tried 
failed, and they eventually went back to the old system or requring 
registration previous to emailing.

Curtailing that amount of spam would take aggresive filtering, so agresive 
as to make difficult for normal people to post.


However, most of that spam was filtered out at my inbox. Ocassionally, a 
post would bounce at my ISP, yes, same as here. But I never got 
unsuscribed. Instead, I get probing posts like this:

+++-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Subject:  Bouncing messages from opensuse@opensuse.org

Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the <opensuse at opensuse.org> 
mailing list.

Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this
message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your
information.

Here is the list of the bounced messages:
- - 176321
- - 176324
- - 176323
- - 176320
- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.++-

If I try to retrieve one of those failed posts, get it resent, it never 
arrives. Apparently it bounces again. Sometimes I'm able to locate it at 
the web mail archive, and it is certainly spam, with an invalid "from:" or 
similar issue.


The problem, for me, is that sgi.com's Mailman doesn't probe. Instead, it 
shooes me out inmediately if one post can not be sent. Aparently it does 
not consider that other posts are sent without problem, nor sends a probe.

That's the problem that concerns me: that my subscription is deactivated 
on bounces. And it is the only mail list that I'm subscribed to where this 
happens, as far as I remember.


- -- 
Cheers
        Carlos E. R.

        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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