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From: Christoph Hellwig <hch@lst.de>
To: Geoff Back <geoff@demonlair.co.uk>
Cc: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>,
	Christoph Hellwig <hch@lst.de>, Carlos Maiolino <cem@kernel.org>,
	Christian Brauner <brauner@kernel.org>, Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>,
	"Martin K. Petersen" <martin.petersen@oracle.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-raid@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-block@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: fall back from direct to buffered I/O when stable writes are required
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2025 15:35:50 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20251030143550.GB31550@lst.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5ac7fb86-07a2-4fc6-959e-524ff54afebf@demonlair.co.uk>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 12:00:26PM +0000, Geoff Back wrote:
> I don't claim to have deep knowledge of what's going on here, but if I
> understand correctly the problem occurs only if the process submitting
> the direct I/O is breaking the semantic "contract" by modifying the page
> after submitting the I/O but before it completes.

Except that there never has been any such "contract", written or
unwritten.  Modifying in-flight I/O is perfectly fine IFF the data
is sampled once as in the usual non-checksum non-RAID mode, and nothing
ever told applications not to do it.

>   Since the page
> referenced by the I/O is supposed to be immutable until the I/O
> completes, what about marking the page read only at time of submission
> and restoring the original page permissions after the I/O completes? 
> Then if the process writes to the page (triggering a fault) make a copy
> of the page that can be mapped back as writeable for the process - i.e.
> normal copy-on-write behaviour - and write a once-per-process dmesg
> warning that the process broke the direct I/O "contract".

That would be nice, but also pretty hard.  See various previous
discussions on this topic.  Also at least for small I/O it probably
is more expensive than bounce buffering while for large enough I/O,
especially using PMD mappings or similar avoiding the copy will be
very beneficial.


  parent reply	other threads:[~2025-10-30 14:35 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 51+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2025-10-29  7:15 fall back from direct to buffered I/O when stable writes are required Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29  7:15 ` [PATCH 1/4] fs: replace FOP_DIO_PARALLEL_WRITE with a fmode bits Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 16:01   ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-11-04  7:00   ` Nirjhar Roy (IBM)
2025-11-05 14:04     ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-11-11  9:44   ` Christian Brauner
2025-10-29  7:15 ` [PATCH 2/4] fs: return writeback errors for IOCB_DONTCACHE in generic_write_sync Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 16:01   ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-10-29 16:37     ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 18:12       ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-10-30  5:59         ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-11-04 12:04       ` Nirjhar Roy (IBM)
2025-11-04 15:53         ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29  7:15 ` [PATCH 3/4] xfs: use IOCB_DONTCACHE when falling back to buffered writes Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 15:57   ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-11-04 12:33   ` Nirjhar Roy (IBM)
2025-11-04 15:52     ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29  7:15 ` [PATCH 4/4] xfs: fallback to buffered I/O for direct I/O when stable writes are required Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 15:53   ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-10-29 16:35     ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 21:23       ` Qu Wenruo
2025-10-30  5:58         ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-30  6:37           ` Qu Wenruo
2025-10-30  6:49             ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-30  6:53               ` Qu Wenruo
2025-10-30  6:55                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-30  7:14                   ` Qu Wenruo
2025-10-30  7:17                     ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-11-10 13:38   ` Nirjhar Roy (IBM)
2025-11-10 13:59     ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-29 15:58 ` fall back from direct to buffered " Bart Van Assche
2025-10-29 16:14   ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-10-29 16:33   ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-30 11:20 ` Dave Chinner
2025-10-30 12:00   ` Geoff Back
2025-10-30 12:54     ` Jan Kara
2025-10-30 14:35     ` Christoph Hellwig [this message]
2025-10-30 22:02     ` Dave Chinner
2025-10-30 14:33   ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-30 23:18     ` Dave Chinner
2025-10-31 13:00       ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-10-31 15:57         ` Keith Busch
2025-10-31 16:47           ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-11-03 11:14             ` Jan Kara
2025-11-03 12:21               ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-11-03 22:47                 ` Keith Busch
2025-11-04 23:38                 ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-11-05 14:11                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2025-11-05 21:44                     ` Darrick J. Wong
2025-11-06  9:50                       ` Johannes Thumshirn
2025-11-06 12:49                         ` hch

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