405 TLB miss reduction

405 TLB miss reduction

[Wolfgang Grandegger]

Hello,

we are suffering from TLB misses on a 405GP processor, eating up to
10% of the CPU power when running our (rather big) application. We
can regain a few percent by using the kernel option CONFIG_PIN_TLB
but we are thinking about further kernel modifications to reduce
TLB misses. What comes into my mind is:

 - using a kernel PAGE_SIZE of 8KB (instead of 4KB).
 - using large-page TLB entries.

Has anybody already investigated the effort or benefit of such
changes or knows about other (simple) measures (apart from
replacing the hardware)?

TIA.

Wolfgang.


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Matt Porter]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 03:43:41PM +0100, Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> we are suffering from TLB misses on a 405GP processor, eating up to
> 10% of the CPU power when running our (rather big) application. We
> can regain a few percent by using the kernel option CONFIG_PIN_TLB
> but we are thinking about further kernel modifications to reduce
> TLB misses. What comes into my mind is:
>
>  - using a kernel PAGE_SIZE of 8KB (instead of 4KB).
>  - using large-page TLB entries.
>
> Has anybody already investigated the effort or benefit of such
> changes or knows about other (simple) measures (apart from
> replacing the hardware)?

David Gibson and Paul M. implemented large TLB kernel lowmem
support in 2.5/2.6 for 405.  It allows for large TLB entries
to be loaded on kernel lowmem TLB misses.  This is better than
the CONFIG_PIN_TLB since it works for all of your kernel lowmem
system memory rather than the fixed amount of memory that
CONFIG_PIN_TLB covers.

I've been thinking about enabling a variant of Andi Kleen's patch
to allow modules to be loaded into kernel lowmem space instead of
vmalloc space (to avoid the performance penalty of modular drivers).
This takes advantage of the large kernel lowmem 405 support above
and on 440 all kernel lowmem is in a pinned tlb for architectural
reasons.

I've also been thinking about dynamically using large TLB/PTE mappings
for ioremap on 405/440.

In 2.6, there is hugetlb userspace infrastructure that could be enabled
for the large page sizes on 4xx.

Allowing a compile time choice of default page size would also be useful.

Basically, all of these cases can provide a performance advantage
depending on your embedded application...it all depends on what your
application is doing.

-Matt

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Wolfgang Grandegger]

On 12/10/2003 05:03 PM Matt Porter wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 03:43:41PM +0100, Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> we are suffering from TLB misses on a 405GP processor, eating up to
>> 10% of the CPU power when running our (rather big) application. We
>> can regain a few percent by using the kernel option CONFIG_PIN_TLB
>> but we are thinking about further kernel modifications to reduce
>> TLB misses. What comes into my mind is:
>>
>>  - using a kernel PAGE_SIZE of 8KB (instead of 4KB).
>>  - using large-page TLB entries.
>>
>> Has anybody already investigated the effort or benefit of such
>> changes or knows about other (simple) measures (apart from
>> replacing the hardware)?
>
> David Gibson and Paul M. implemented large TLB kernel lowmem
> support in 2.5/2.6 for 405.  It allows for large TLB entries
> to be loaded on kernel lowmem TLB misses.  This is better than
> the CONFIG_PIN_TLB since it works for all of your kernel lowmem
> system memory rather than the fixed amount of memory that
> CONFIG_PIN_TLB covers.

Ah, I will have a look to 2.5/2.6. Is there a backport for 2.4?

> I've been thinking about enabling a variant of Andi Kleen's patch
> to allow modules to be loaded into kernel lowmem space instead of
> vmalloc space (to avoid the performance penalty of modular drivers).
> This takes advantage of the large kernel lowmem 405 support above
> and on 440 all kernel lowmem is in a pinned tlb for architectural
> reasons.

Is this patch available somewhere? It would be interesting to measure
the improvement for our application.

> I've also been thinking about dynamically using large TLB/PTE mappings
> for ioremap on 405/440.

OK, I expect not so much benefit from this measure but it depends on the
application, of course.

> In 2.6, there is hugetlb userspace infrastructure that could be enabled
> for the large page sizes on 4xx.

But this sounds more promising. Same questing as above. Is there a
backport for 2.4?

> Allowing a compile time choice of default page size would also be useful.

Increasing the page size from 4 to 8 kB should, in theory, halve the
page misses (if no large TLB pages are used). Unfortunately, increasing
the page size seem not straight forward as it's statically used in
various places and maybe the GLIBC needs to be rebuild as well.

> Basically, all of these cases can provide a performance advantage
> depending on your embedded application...it all depends on what your
> application is doing.

Of course, and tweaking the kernel for a dedicated application might not
been worth the effort. Anyhow, I have now a better idea what else can be
done.

Thanks.

Wolfgang.


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Dan Malek]

Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:

> Increasing the page size from 4 to 8 kB should, in theory, halve the
> page misses (if no large TLB pages are used).

It depends entirely on locality of reference.  Without doing any
kind execution analysis (which isn't the proper engineering practice)
you could assume it would help instruction pages and have little effect
on data pages.

> ... Unfortunately, increasing
> the page size seem not straight forward as it's statically used in
> various places and maybe the GLIBC needs to be rebuild as well.

The MIPS port uses various (but static) page sizes depending upon
the requirements of the processor core.  IIRC, their glibc can handle
this at run time.  Maybe Drow can add some comments here.  In any case
there are already kernel and user reference ports we should leverage
if we intend to go down this path.


Thanks.


	-- Dan


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Matt Porter]

On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 10:06:32AM +0100, Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>
> On 12/10/2003 05:03 PM Matt Porter wrote:
> > David Gibson and Paul M. implemented large TLB kernel lowmem
> > support in 2.5/2.6 for 405.  It allows for large TLB entries
> > to be loaded on kernel lowmem TLB misses.  This is better than
> > the CONFIG_PIN_TLB since it works for all of your kernel lowmem
> > system memory rather than the fixed amount of memory that
> > CONFIG_PIN_TLB covers.
>
> Ah, I will have a look to 2.5/2.6. Is there a backport for 2.4?

No.

> > I've been thinking about enabling a variant of Andi Kleen's patch
> > to allow modules to be loaded into kernel lowmem space instead of
> > vmalloc space (to avoid the performance penalty of modular drivers).
> > This takes advantage of the large kernel lowmem 405 support above
> > and on 440 all kernel lowmem is in a pinned tlb for architectural
> > reasons.
>
> Is this patch available somewhere? It would be interesting to measure
> the improvement for our application.

Google is your friend.
http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2002/Oct/6522.html
IIRC, there's a later version with some minor differences.

> > I've also been thinking about dynamically using large TLB/PTE mappings
> > for ioremap on 405/440.
>
> OK, I expect not so much benefit from this measure but it depends on the
> application, of course.

Yes, I've seen a lot of apps with huge shared memory areas across PCI
that can benefit from this...they used BATs on classic PPCs.

> > In 2.6, there is hugetlb userspace infrastructure that could be enabled
> > for the large page sizes on 4xx.
>
> But this sounds more promising. Same questing as above. Is there a
> backport for 2.4?

No.

> > Allowing a compile time choice of default page size would also be useful.
>
> Increasing the page size from 4 to 8 kB should, in theory, halve the
> page misses (if no large TLB pages are used). Unfortunately, increasing
> the page size seem not straight forward as it's statically used in
> various places and maybe the GLIBC needs to be rebuild as well.

Possibly, as Dan mentions, there are other arches already doing this
type of thing.  I know ia64 does and sounds like MIPS is another.

> > Basically, all of these cases can provide a performance advantage
> > depending on your embedded application...it all depends on what your
> > application is doing.
>
> Of course, and tweaking the kernel for a dedicated application might not
> been worth the effort. Anyhow, I have now a better idea what else can be
> done.

When I used to do apps work we were very performance sensitive (depends
on you project, of course) and we were very willing to make kernel
tweaks (proprietary RTOS) to me our requirements.  It all depends on
your requirements, constraints, budget, etc. :)

-Matt

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Wolfgang Grandegger]

On 12/11/2003 06:45 PM Matt Porter wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 10:06:32AM +0100, Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>>
>> On 12/10/2003 05:03 PM Matt Porter wrote:
>> > David Gibson and Paul M. implemented large TLB kernel lowmem
>> > support in 2.5/2.6 for 405.  It allows for large TLB entries
>> > to be loaded on kernel lowmem TLB misses.  This is better than
>> > the CONFIG_PIN_TLB since it works for all of your kernel lowmem
>> > system memory rather than the fixed amount of memory that
>> > CONFIG_PIN_TLB covers.
>>
>> Ah, I will have a look to 2.5/2.6. Is there a backport for 2.4?
>
> No.
>
>> > I've been thinking about enabling a variant of Andi Kleen's patch
>> > to allow modules to be loaded into kernel lowmem space instead of
>> > vmalloc space (to avoid the performance penalty of modular drivers).
>> > This takes advantage of the large kernel lowmem 405 support above
>> > and on 440 all kernel lowmem is in a pinned tlb for architectural
>> > reasons.
>>
>> Is this patch available somewhere? It would be interesting to measure
>> the improvement for our application.
>
> Google is your friend.
> http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2002/Oct/6522.html
> IIRC, there's a later version with some minor differences.
>
>> > I've also been thinking about dynamically using large TLB/PTE mappings
>> > for ioremap on 405/440.
>>
>> OK, I expect not so much benefit from this measure but it depends on the
>> application, of course.
>
> Yes, I've seen a lot of apps with huge shared memory areas across PCI
> that can benefit from this...they used BATs on classic PPCs.
>
>> > In 2.6, there is hugetlb userspace infrastructure that could be enabled
>> > for the large page sizes on 4xx.
>>
>> But this sounds more promising. Same questing as above. Is there a
>> backport for 2.4?
>
> No.
>
>> > Allowing a compile time choice of default page size would also be useful.
>>
>> Increasing the page size from 4 to 8 kB should, in theory, halve the
>> page misses (if no large TLB pages are used). Unfortunately, increasing
>> the page size seem not straight forward as it's statically used in
>> various places and maybe the GLIBC needs to be rebuild as well.
>
> Possibly, as Dan mentions, there are other arches already doing this
> type of thing.  I know ia64 does and sounds like MIPS is another.
>
>> > Basically, all of these cases can provide a performance advantage
>> > depending on your embedded application...it all depends on what your
>> > application is doing.
>>
>> Of course, and tweaking the kernel for a dedicated application might not
>> been worth the effort. Anyhow, I have now a better idea what else can be
>> done.
>
> When I used to do apps work we were very performance sensitive (depends
> on you project, of course) and we were very willing to make kernel
> tweaks (proprietary RTOS) to me our requirements.  It all depends on
> your requirements, constraints, budget, etc. :)

Well, time and money is usually a scarce resource :-(. Anyhow, this
thread showed me that it might be worth tweaking the kernel and that
there are already various implementations which could be followed after
a more detailed analysis of the TLB misses. Thank you and Dan very much
for the valuable input.

Wolfgang.


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RE: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Joakim Tjernlund]

> > > I've also been thinking about dynamically using large
> TLB/PTE mappings
> > > for ioremap on 405/440.
> >
> > OK, I expect not so much benefit from this measure but it
> depends on the
> > application, of course.
>
> Yes, I've seen a lot of apps with huge shared memory areas across PCI
> that can benefit from this...they used BATs on classic PPCs.

hmm, I wonder if this would be useful for systems using JFFS2/MTD?
JFFS2/MTD usually ioremaps the underlying FLASH memory, which can be
many MB.

 Jocke

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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Dan Malek]

Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:

> ....We
> can regain a few percent by using the kernel option CONFIG_PIN_TLB
> but we are thinking about further kernel modifications to reduce
> TLB misses. What comes into my mind is:

If you have a large application I doubt any kernel modification
will gain much.  It's the application causing the huge amounts
of tlb misses, you probably need to evaluate changes that will
reduce that.

It's always easy to pick on the kernel and make some changes
becaue it is a very static and well behaved application.  It
seems your biggest performance increase would come from the
analysis of the application and some redesign to improve its
use of system resources.

Thanks.


	-- Dan


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Wolfgang Grandegger]

On 12/10/2003 06:08 PM Dan Malek wrote:
> Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>
>> ....We
>> can regain a few percent by using the kernel option CONFIG_PIN_TLB
>> but we are thinking about further kernel modifications to reduce
>> TLB misses. What comes into my mind is:
>
> If you have a large application I doubt any kernel modification
> will gain much.  It's the application causing the huge amounts
> of tlb misses, you probably need to evaluate changes that will
> reduce that.
>
> It's always easy to pick on the kernel and make some changes
> becaue it is a very static and well behaved application.  It
> seems your biggest performance increase would come from the
> analysis of the application and some redesign to improve its
> use of system resources.

We have been surprised, that CONFIG_PIN_TLB was able to reduce the page
miss rate already by approx. 40%. We are also working on the
optimization/tuning of our application and likely there we can gain more
than by further squeezing the TBL management of the Linux kernel, I agree.

Thanks.

Wolfgang.


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Jon Masters]

Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:

| We have been surprised, that CONFIG_PIN_TLB was able to reduce the page
| miss rate already by approx. 40%. We are also working on the
| optimization/tuning of our application and likely there we can gain more
| than by further squeezing the TBL management of the Linux kernel, I agree.

I noticed a possible improvement in performance however have not yet
done a set of tests to back this up. I saw the huge TLB stuff in
2.6.0-test11 and nearly fell off my chair - can someone here provide
some reference to read on this so I can be more useful talking about it?

Jon.


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Wolfgang Grandegger]

On 12/11/2003 05:48 PM Jon Masters wrote:
>
> Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>
> | We have been surprised, that CONFIG_PIN_TLB was able to reduce the page
> | miss rate already by approx. 40%. We are also working on the
> | optimization/tuning of our application and likely there we can gain more
> | than by further squeezing the TBL management of the Linux kernel, I agree.
>
> I noticed a possible improvement in performance however have not yet
> done a set of tests to back this up. I saw the huge TLB stuff in
> 2.6.0-test11 and nearly fell off my chair - can someone here provide
> some reference to read on this so I can be more useful talking about it?

I found "Documentation/vm/hugetlbpage.txt" in linuxppc-2.5 from BK.

Wolfgang.


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Jon Masters]

Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:

| I found "Documentation/vm/hugetlbpage.txt" in linuxppc-2.5 from BK.

Yeah I have that too but want to know whether there is a resource I am
missing where this stuff is getting discussed and sorted.

Jon.


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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Matt Porter]

On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 05:06:25PM +0000, Jon Masters wrote:
>
>
> Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>
> | I found "Documentation/vm/hugetlbpage.txt" in linuxppc-2.5 from BK.
>
> Yeah I have that too but want to know whether there is a resource I am
> missing where this stuff is getting discussed and sorted.

In the past, there's been lots of discussion about hugetlb support on
lkml. google for it.

-Matt

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Re: 405 TLB miss reduction

[Jon Masters]

Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:

| Has anybody already investigated the effort or benefit of such
| changes or knows about other (simple) measures (apart from
| replacing the hardware)?

I have been thinking about doing something slightly more intelligent
with tLB miss handling and selecting the next entry to write.

At the moment I am doing stuff like setting up PTXdist (which does
indeed rule by the way once you get the right configuration) however I
could do with something for the holiday period so please keep me updated
~ and I will try to fit bits in when I get time with a board to do it.

There is an EPPC405 which I am hoping to borrow for a while because it
is not particularly being used but I will see what happens about it.

Cheers,

Jon.

P.S. I am going to be at FOSDEM and welcome the idea of meeting other
ppc 405 or Virtex II Pro or indeed anyone from this list.


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