Where do we go from here?

Where do we go from here?

[L. S.]

With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and since 
LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power Macintoshes--unlike 
IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen when Apple changes 
hardware architectures to a degree that the specifications for Apple hardware 
are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers or reverse-enginneered so late that 
Apple is miles ahead with their Mach/BSD/Mac OS?
See: Anyone can step on Micromaggot's foot, but Apple owns their own 
architecture.

(I'm a long-time Apple user who maintained, configured, was in charge of an L. 
A. school Macintosh lab and AppleTalk network and also am studying Comp. Sci. 
Working closely with Macs and trying to get them to bend over backwards to act 
like secure, multi-user, network workstations made me sick. I also refused to 
learn ancient and doomed Macintosh APIs and needed a more challenging user 
experience. So, while waiting for years of promised, new OSes-of-the-month 
from Apple, I found MkLinux, first, then LinuxPPC. So, I'm slowly replacing 
Mac apps with LinuxPPC and its apps while starting to develop for LinuxPPC. 
That's why I ask. Pow!)

L. S.

:-| :-) ;-) :-)
*


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Re: Where do we go from here?

[Hollis R Blanchard]

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, L. S. wrote:
> 
> With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and
> since LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power
> Macintoshes--unlike IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen
> when Apple changes hardware architectures to a degree that the
> specifications for Apple hardware are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers
> or reverse-enginneered so late that Apple is miles ahead with their
> Mach/BSD/Mac OS?  See: Anyone can step on Micromaggot's foot, but Apple owns
> their own architecture.

You know, I'm not one for flowery poetic stuff, so I'd just like to remind you
that LinuxPPC was created without Apple's help, and since then Apple *has*
changed their designs more than once. Like the iMac, for example - USB wasn't
included for LinuxPPC developer's convenience. And the Blue & White G3's,
which are currently too recent to work with LinuxPPC yet.

But you get that anywhere - even in the Intel world, the most well-supported
hardware are the old standby's, like the Matrox Millenium. Most hardware
vendors aren't too helpful with their specs, although more of them are being
helpful these days. But the latest technologies are always slower to be
supported in Linux, because the proprietary vendors develop develop develop,
then release, and it's only after that release that Linux hackers can start
their work.

> (I'm a long-time Apple user who maintained, configured, was in charge of an
> L. A. school Macintosh lab and AppleTalk network and also am studying Comp.
> Sci. Working closely with Macs and trying to get them to bend over backwards
> to act like secure, multi-user, network workstations made me sick.  I also
> refused to learn ancient and doomed Macintosh APIs and needed a more
> challenging user experience. So, while waiting for years of promised, new
> OSes-of-the-month from Apple, I found MkLinux, first, then LinuxPPC. So, I'm
> slowly replacing Mac apps with LinuxPPC and its apps while starting to
> develop for LinuxPPC. That's why I ask. Pow!)

Right. Linux rocks, etc. The Mac OS, while it *can* be used as a web server,
mail server, etc, wasn't made for that. The Mac OS is very pretty and
polished, but Linux has the power you need for a server.

Don't listen to the "news analysts" telling you Open Source is about to
disappear forever. They've been saying that about Apple for a decade and a
half now...

-Hollis


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Re: Where do we go from here?

[Cort Dougan]

Apple is moving to more "open" standards, actually.  Things should get
easier not more difficult.  With sheepshaver Apple views LinuxPPC as
another platform to run their software - not a competitor right now.

> With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and since 
> LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power Macintoshes--unlike 
> IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen when Apple changes 
> hardware architectures to a degree that the specifications for Apple hardware 
> are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers or reverse-enginneered so late that 
> Apple is miles ahead with their Mach/BSD/Mac OS?
> See: Anyone can step on Micromaggot's foot, but Apple owns their own 
> architecture.


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Re: Where do we go from here?

[harry eaton]

L. S. wrote:

> With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and since
> LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power Macintoshes--unlike
> IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen when Apple changes
> hardware architectures to a degree that the specifications for Apple hardware
> are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers or reverse-enginneered so late that
> Apple is miles ahead with their Mach/BSD/Mac OS?

Well lets see.  That was the position we were in prior to today, and I don't
think Apple is exactly miles ahead.  Ahead yes, but not by miles.  Today Steve
Jobs broke down and actually revealed some hardware info (or near as I can tell,
there's new revelations there).  I'm talking here about:
http://www.publicsource.apple.com/   Get it while it lasts (I'm not talking about
using this code, just looking at it for register bit definitions etc.).  Hurry
hurry, before Apple does one of its famous reversals.
The good stuff seems to mostly be in the file with the link name "kernel".

h.



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RE: Where do we go from here?

[Michael Millsap]

Look how long it took Apple to get 68K code out of their OS. I sincerely
doubt Apple is going to make a swift move to a new architecture, and to what
advantage? MacOS(non-X) is going to be around for sometime after X. I still
have not seen a working 'blue box'. If it breaks the OS, its probably going
to break a lot of apps.

Mike



With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and
since 
LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power
Macintoshes--unlike 
IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen when Apple changes 
hardware architectures to a degree that the specifications for Apple
hardware 
are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers or reverse-enginneered so late that

Apple is miles ahead with their Mach/BSD/Mac OS?
See: Anyone can step on Micromaggot's foot, but Apple owns their own 
architecture.

(I'm a long-time Apple user who maintained, configured, was in charge of an
L. 
A. school Macintosh lab and AppleTalk network and also am studying Comp.
Sci. 
Working closely with Macs and trying to get them to bend over backwards to
act 
like secure, multi-user, network workstations made me sick. I also refused
to 
learn ancient and doomed Macintosh APIs and needed a more challenging user 
experience. So, while waiting for years of promised, new OSes-of-the-month 
from Apple, I found MkLinux, first, then LinuxPPC. So, I'm slowly replacing 
Mac apps with LinuxPPC and its apps while starting to develop for LinuxPPC. 
That's why I ask. Pow!)

L. S.

:-| :-) ;-) :-)
*


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Re: Where do we go from here?

[Peter Bierman]

>With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and since
>LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power Macintoshes--unlike
>IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen when Apple changes
>hardware architectures to a degree that the specifications for Apple hardware
>are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers or reverse-enginneered so late that

Why do you think Apple will take steps to intentionally sabotage LinuxPPC
work? Wouldn't the opposite seem more likely, given the history of Apple's
cooperation with Linux goals through mkLinux, and informal assistance to
LinuxPPC?


>Working closely with Macs and trying to get them to bend over backwards to
>act
>like secure, multi-user, network workstations made me sick. I also refused to
>learn ancient and doomed Macintosh APIs and needed a more challenging user

Not like you're bitter or anything, right?


Sounds too much like a troll. If you want to start a flame war, try
somewhere else.

-pmb

--
"UNIX shells in Mac OS X should be unneeded but functional...
                        and have the same installed base as MPW."



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Re: Where do we go from here?

[Arun Rodrigues]

On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Peter Bierman wrote:

> 
> >With Apple Computers coming into the arena of Linux(PPC) territory, and since
> >LinuxPPC is playing on Apple's territory, and since Power Macintoshes--unlike
> >IBM compatibles--are closed systems, what will happen when Apple changes
> >hardware architectures to a degree that the specifications for Apple hardware
> >are out of reach for LinuxPPC developers or reverse-enginneered so late that
> 
> Why do you think Apple will take steps to intentionally sabotage LinuxPPC
> work? Wouldn't the opposite seem more likely, given the history of Apple's
> cooperation with Linux goals through mkLinux, and informal assistance to
> LinuxPPC?
> 

indeed, for all the talk about how apple is closed and against other OSes
(such as the BeOS complaints) Apple is ultimately a hardware company which
makes its cash by selling boxes, not software. This move will help - I
would love linux for the servers and for people who want to play around
with the system and a MacOS with a UNIX/Mach kernel for the people who
just want to use end-user apps and not develop. 



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