Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Min Shin (CS)]

I'm not a Linux expert at all and I tried to download the files that you
have at ppclinux.apple.com/~benh.  But, I some difficulty setting  stuff
up.  So, I'll explain what I did, and perhaps you can give me a lift.
Then, I'll write it up and post it on the web on how to set it up for the
beginners. :)

* SETTING :
- Powerbook 400Mhz + 192MB RAM...
- Mac OS 9.0.2
- Attempt to use 1 harddrive to setup LinuxPPC2000.

* STEPS :
1.  partitioned the HD into three partititions: MacOS, Linux, Swap
2.  download the image file of LinuxPPC2000 from the mirror site and
placed it in the swap disk.
3.  using 'diskcopy", installed the linuxppc2000 image in the swap disk
	creating LinuxPPC 2000 install directory.
4.  downloaded the kernels from ppclinux.apple.com/~benh at swap disk
	vmlinux...
	system.map...
	modules...
	patches...

5.  downloaded yaboot from ppclinux.apple.com/~benh as well.
	-> to boot yaboot?
	- but I saw yaboot in Linuxppc2000 install directory as well.
	But reading the file, it seems as it's assuming to read boot file
		from CD rom.

6.  ran LinuxPPC installer.
7.  reboot, but it will go with BootX.

Would you tell me what are the other steps that I need to take?  Such as
where to place those four files, if I need to uncompress them...

Thanks


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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Ethan Benson]

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On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0800, Henry Worth wrote:

> > * STEPS :
> > 1.  partitioned the HD into three partititions: MacOS, Linux, Swap
> 
> I'd strongly recommend a small HFS boot partition (~32MB).

32MB??  lord no, 800K is more then enough for yaboot.

this partition should also be given a partition type of
Apple_Bootstrap to prevent Macos from mounting, and subsquently
screwing it up.  (it removes the `blessing' from anything that might
not be a valid macos system folder)

> 2) Set up a "blessed" system folder in the HFS boot partition
>    containing yaboot and yaboot.conf. There is a link to tool
>    on Ben's website to help with that (or copy the system folder
>    from the LinuxPPC 2000 CD). You can then:

the tool i think you are refering to is ybin, which i wrote to format
bootstrap partitions in such a way that OpenFirmware will boot from
them with its default settings.

the following is required for this to work:

* bootstrap partition must be placed BEFORE the macos partition.

* bootstrap partition must NOT be mountable by macos, otherwise it
will undo my changes.  so you MUST use the Apple_Bootstrap partition
type.

once you have this, you can run the following command with ybin 0.11
(0.12 will be a bit better)

mkofboot --boot /dev/hda5 --magicboot /boot/ofboot.b 

you must have yaboot installed at /boot/yaboot and the yaboot.conf at
/etc/yaboot.conf, if not specify the paths with -i /path/to/yaboot and
-c /path/to/yaboot.conf 

ofboot.b is a small openfirmware script, i include 2, one is intendted
for linux only systems, the other has a mini boot menu, you need to
edit them to correct the OF partitions for macos and the bootstrap
partition.  

now what mkofboot does for you is create the HFS filesystem on the
bootstrap partition (example above is /dev/hda5, adjust for your
system) and copy yaboot, yaboot.conf, and the ofboot.b OF script to
the boot partition.  it then sets the filetype on the ofboot.b script
to `tbxi' and blesses the root directory.  this way when you reboot
you can hold down:

command option o f 

while your system boots to reset OF to default values, and up comes
the multiboot menu. neat eh? no need to enter OF at all under most
circumstances. 

>    a> Set that partition as the default boot partition from
>       the MacOS partition.

no need. and you can't, if macos is allowed to mount the bootstrap
partition it will remove the blessing and OF will reject the partition
as bootable.
	
> 
>    c> The OF boot-device and boot-file variables can be set to change
>       the default boot partition and file. With this approach you
>       don't need the system folder, see the maillist archives.

if you must set the boot-device (i have not had to on my blue g3, you
might for a scsi system) set it to:

hd:<#>,\\:tbxi

where <#> is the partition number of the bootstrap partition.

> 
> 3) There are examples of some slick dual-boot OF scripts in the
>    recent mail archives. I need to find them again myself (there was
>    a thread with a good writeup), and set my system up that way, it's

there is a simple one with ybin, fancier ones may be found elsewhere,
just drop whichever one you prefer in /boot/ofboot.b and ybin will use
it.

ybin is available at my web page (.sig) or at
http://www.linuxppc.org/ybin/


-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Olaf Hering]

On Wed, Mar 29, Ethan Benson wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0800, Henry Worth wrote:
>
> > > * STEPS :
> > > 1.  partitioned the HD into three partititions: MacOS, Linux, Swap
> >
> > I'd strongly recommend a small HFS boot partition (~32MB).
>
> 32MB??  lord no, 800K is more then enough for yaboot.

What about different kernel images? 32 MB is a good value.
And it is more secure, even for older Macs with BootX.
I don't trust the hfs.o

> this partition should also be given a partition type of
> Apple_Bootstrap to prevent Macos from mounting, and subsquently
> screwing it up.  (it removes the `blessing' from anything that might
> not be a valid macos system folder)

There is nothing on that partition that can be screwed up and the user
can change the yaboot.conf and the os-chooser file from the MacOS side.

I had never problems with my faked system folder, I move it around, to
CDs, to netatalk servers and where ever I want. This can be a "feature"
of OS9 that it doesn't remove the information, I don't know.

What makes this blessing so special??

I have the Finder from MiBoot.smi, I changed the type/creator to
FNDR/MACS. The System is the same from MiBoot, unchanged. There is a
faked RomFile = yaboot and its .conf. Thats all.

You have to move the Finder file out of that folder and move it back
onto the closed folder icon and it is bootable. All you have to do now
is to open the control panel Startup volume and you are done.

I don't see the problem. What we really need is an app that creates the
os-chooser file, what we need is the partition number and the path to a
bootable SCSI device. I could do that from the Linux side via a bootable
CD, but it would be nice to do it with a Mac application.

Gruss Olaf

--
 $ man 1 current_release

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Ethan Benson]

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On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 03:58:34PM +0200, Olaf Hering wrote:
> 
> What about different kernel images? 32 MB is a good value.
> And it is more secure, even for older Macs with BootX. 
> I don't trust the hfs.o 

kernel images do not belong on this partition, they belong on your
ext2 root filesystem in the /boot directory, this is where yaboot will
load them from.

> There is nothing on that partition that can be screwed up and the user
> can change the yaboot.conf and the os-chooser file from the MacOS side.

yes there is, the blessing WILL get removed by macos, if it has not
happened to you, then your lucky, macos for me NEVER fails to ruin
fake system folders. don't play with fire is my philosophy on this.

> I had never problems with my faked system folder, I move it around, to
> CDs, to netatalk servers and where ever I want. This can be a "feature"
> of OS9 that it doesn't remove the information, I don't know.
> 
> What makes this blessing so special??

OF will not boot automatically with its default configuration
otherwise.  unless you LIKE screwing with its variables ;-)

> I have the Finder from MiBoot.smi, I changed the type/creator to
> FNDR/MACS. The System is the same from MiBoot, unchanged. There is a
> faked RomFile = yaboot and its .conf. Thats all.

miboot has nothing to do with yaboot. creating fake system files
SOMETIMES prevents macos from deblessing, but usually it does not.
(take my word for it i have much experience dealing with fake system
folders like this for other purposes)

also yaboot cannot be given type tbxi because its an ELF executable,
and OF refuses to boot a type tbxi file unless its a CHRP script.
that is why we have to use that wrapper instead.

> You have to move the Finder file out of that folder and move it back
> onto the closed folder icon and it is bootable. All you have to do now
> is to open the control panel Startup volume and you are done.

i have found this is very unreliable and usually does NOT work.  my
method allows for default OF settings with no modification. and
guarenteed access to the boot menu.

-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2000, Olaf Hering <olh@suse.de> wrote:

>I had never problems with my faked system folder, I move it around, to
>CDs, to netatalk servers and where ever I want. This can be a "feature"
>of OS9 that it doesn't remove the information, I don't know.
>
>What makes this blessing so special??

The "blessing" is a combination of two things:

 - The directory ID of the "blessed" folder is written somewhere in the
disk catalog (I think in the MDB, I don't remember for sure)

 - Valid boot blocs are written to bloc 0 and 1 of the volume

OF may still be able to boot if the bootblocs are not present (but miBoot
can't).

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2000, Olaf Hering <olh@suse.de> wrote:

>I have the Finder from MiBoot.smi, I changed the type/creator to
>FNDR/MACS. The System is the same from MiBoot, unchanged. There is a
>faked RomFile = yaboot and its .conf. Thats all.
>
>You have to move the Finder file out of that folder and move it back
>onto the closed folder icon and it is bootable. All you have to do now
>is to open the control panel Startup volume and you are done.
>
>I don't see the problem. What we really need is an app that creates the
>os-chooser file, what we need is the partition number and the path to a
>bootable SCSI device. I could do that from the Linux side via a bootable
>CD, but it would be nice to do it with a Mac application.

The good news is that I have the algorithm for writing to NVRAM on new
machines. That means that I'll be able to make a version of nvsetenv (or
nvtool) that works on all supported macs, probably this week-end.

There's still the problem of figuring out the correct OF path however.
Note that in my latest trees (and in bk 2.3.x), I've changed ide-pmac.c
to set it's own interface type so that /proc returns "mac-io" instead of
generic IDE. This should help differenciate the mac-io built-in IDE and
the CMD646 on B&W G3.

Ben.


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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Henry A. Worth]

> From: Ethan Benson <erbenson@alaska.net>


> --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 11:03:29PM -0800, Henry Worth wrote:

> > > * STEPS :
> > > 1.  partitioned the HD into three partititions: MacOS, Linux, Swap
> >=20
> > I'd strongly recommend a small HFS boot partition (~32MB).

> 32MB??  lord no, 800K is more then enough for yaboot.

I filled 32MB up quite easily with test kernels. Of course
normal users won't have that problem.  You should
leave enough room for several kernels so you can have a
basic rescue kernel and ramdisk, a good stable kernel, and
that spiffy new kernel that's going to mess everything up
and require you to use that rescue kernel. Also if you start
experimenting with the system folder approach you'll be dupping
yaboot and conf into the system folder.


> this partition should also be given a partition type of
> Apple_Bootstrap to prevent Macos from mounting, and subsquently
> screwing it up.  (it removes the `blessing' from anything that might
> not be a valid macos system folder)

Hm, didn't have that problem when I was using that.

> > 2) Set up a "blessed" system folder in the HFS boot partition
> >    containing yaboot and yaboot.conf. There is a link to tool
> >    on Ben's website to help with that (or copy the system folder
> >    from the LinuxPPC 2000 CD). You can then:

> the tool i think you are refering to is ybin, which i wrote to format
> bootstrap partitions in such a way that OpenFirmware will boot from
> them with its default settings.

> the following is required for this to work:

> * bootstrap partition must be placed BEFORE the macos partition.

> * bootstrap partition must NOT be mountable by macos, otherwise it
> will undo my changes.  so you MUST use the Apple_Bootstrap partition
> type.

> once you have this, you can run the following command with ybin 0.11
> (0.12 will be a bit better)

> mkofboot --boot /dev/hda5 --magicboot /boot/ofboot.b=20

> you must have yaboot installed at /boot/yaboot and the yaboot.conf at
> /etc/yaboot.conf, if not specify the paths with -i /path/to/yaboot and
> -c /path/to/yaboot.conf=20

> ofboot.b is a small openfirmware script, i include 2, one is intendted
> for linux only systems, the other has a mini boot menu, you need to
> edit them to correct the OF partitions for macos and the bootstrap
> partition. =20

> now what mkofboot does for you is create the HFS filesystem on the
> bootstrap partition (example above is /dev/hda5, adjust for your
> system) and copy yaboot, yaboot.conf, and the ofboot.b OF script to
> the boot partition.  it then sets the filetype on the ofboot.b script
> to `tbxi' and blesses the root directory.  this way when you reboot
> you can hold down:

> command option o f=20

> while your system boots to reset OF to default values, and up comes
> the multiboot menu. neat eh? no need to enter OF at all under most
> circumstances.=20

> >    a> Set that partition as the default boot partition from
> >       the MacOS partition.

> no need. and you can't, if macos is allowed to mount the bootstrap
> partition it will remove the blessing and OF will reject the partition
> as bootable.

Didn't have that problem with OS/9, and it is a widely suggested
method. Still it's not the nice solution.

> =09
> >=20
> >    c> The OF boot-device and boot-file variables can be set to change
> >       the default boot partition and file. With this approach you
> >       don't need the system folder, see the maillist archives.

> if you must set the boot-device (i have not had to on my blue g3, you
> might for a scsi system) set it to:

> hd:<#>,\\:tbxi

> where <#> is the partition number of the bootstrap partition.

You shouldn't need the system folder nonsense if you also set boot-file.
Which is one of the nice things about this approach if a Linux-only
system.

> >=20
> > 3) There are examples of some slick dual-boot OF scripts in the
> >    recent mail archives. I need to find them again myself (there was
> >    a thread with a good writeup), and set my system up that way, it's

> there is a simple one with ybin, fancier ones may be found elsewhere,
> just drop whichever one you prefer in /boot/ofboot.b and ybin will use
> it.

> ybin is available at my web page (.sig) or at
> http://www.linuxppc.org/ybin/


The problem I had with ybin (of course my perpective is someone
trying to debug support for a machine that will not boot and
install Linux yet), is that this has to be done from Linux.
It would be a lot more usefull if it was a MacOS tool
or you at least had seperate docs, after downloading it I couldn't
unpackage it in MacOS and with no docs decided it wasn't worth
the trouble to transfer to my x86 system to see what it consisted
of. Until someone produces some definitative consolidated
documentation for yaBoot and these other tools, so users can plan
ahead, they are already going to have their system repartioned and
have reinstalled MacOS and install Linux to find out they are going
to have to do it all over again, yeh...right.

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Olaf Hering]

On Wed, Mar 29, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:

>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2000, Olaf Hering <olh@suse.de> wrote:
>
> >I don't see the problem. What we really need is an app that creates the
> >os-chooser file, what we need is the partition number and the path to a
> >bootable SCSI device. I could do that from the Linux side via a bootable
> >CD, but it would be nice to do it with a Mac application.
>
> The good news is that I have the algorithm for writing to NVRAM on new
> machines. That means that I'll be able to make a version of nvsetenv (or
> nvtool) that works on all supported macs, probably this week-end.
>
> There's still the problem of figuring out the correct OF path however.
> Note that in my latest trees (and in bk 2.3.x), I've changed ide-pmac.c
> to set it's own interface type so that /proc returns "mac-io" instead of
> generic IDE. This should help differenciate the mac-io built-in IDE and
> the CMD646 on B&W G3.

I did a small update to the show_of_path.sh script, it display now
everything correct. It assumes that ultra0 is always the first hd,
ultra1 is the second. hdb can also be a cdrom drive, we have it in on of
our iMacs. The OF to SCSI devices is "guessed" from bootpath.
I think there is no real need for the exact path to an IDE controller.

It is available from
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/ppc/update/BETA/show_of_path.sh

Everybody is invited to send us the output of
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/ppc/update/BETA/suse_hw_info.sh

It is a little tar.gz file, 30kb.

New kernels with the status from linux-pmac-benh monday morning will
arrive tomorrow, we do some internal tests. It includes also pcmcia
support. They will support pmac, chrp and prep machines.

A newer quik.rpm for RS/6000 booting is available from
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/ppc/update/6.3/a1/quik-2.0-7.ppc.rpm
It scans now every partition on sda for quik.conf, take the kernel from
that partition and mount it as the root device if there is no root=
argument.


Gruss Olaf

--
 $ man 1 current_release

BUGS
       Users never read manuals...

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Olaf Hering]

On Wed, Mar 29, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:

>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2000, Olaf Hering <olh@suse.de> wrote:
>
> >I had never problems with my faked system folder, I move it around, to
> >CDs, to netatalk servers and where ever I want. This can be a "feature"
> >of OS9 that it doesn't remove the information, I don't know.
> >
> >What makes this blessing so special??
>
> The "blessing" is a combination of two things:
>
>  - The directory ID of the "blessed" folder is written somewhere in the
> disk catalog (I think in the MDB, I don't remember for sure)
>
>  - Valid boot blocs are written to bloc 0 and 1 of the volume
>
> OF may still be able to boot if the bootblocs are not present (but miBoot
> can't).

In this case it is for the new world machines and as I said it works
always and ever. I drag it from the partition to a netatalk volume, go
to another mac and drag the folder into the Linux boot partition and it
is shown as a system folder. We have only OS9 here, the older B&W
machines can not be bootet from a OS 8.5 CDs and the original CDs are
gone. So I can't test it with OS 8.6.

I will post a smi the next days, I guess when you open it and drag it
onto another partition it will be bootable.

Gruss Olaf

--
 $ man 1 current_release

BUGS
       Users never read manuals...

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Ethan Benson]

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On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 11:20:17AM -0800, Henry A. Worth wrote:
> 
> I filled 32MB up quite easily with test kernels. Of course
> normal users won't have that problem.  You should 
> leave enough room for several kernels so you can have a 
> basic rescue kernel and ramdisk, a good stable kernel, and 
> that spiffy new kernel that's going to mess everything up
> and require you to use that rescue kernel. Also if you start
> experimenting with the system folder approach you'll be dupping
> yaboot and conf into the system folder.
> 

kernels do not belong on the HFS boot partition, they belong on the
ext2 root filesystem.  yaboot != bootx it boots the kernels from ext2
bootx does not.
> 
> Hm, didn't have that problem when I was using that. 

some don't, when i worked on a similer project we would have multiple
machines with the EXACT same OS version, one would consistently remove
the blessing and boot blocks, the other hardly ever...  

> You shouldn't need the system folder nonsense if you also set boot-file.
> Which is one of the nice things about this approach if a Linux-only
> system.

people hate messing with OF settings.  deal with it.  that is why i
reccomend a non macos mountable bootstrap partition, with this
configuration you do not need to touch OF.

> 
> The problem I had with ybin (of course my perpective is someone 
> trying to debug support for a machine that will not boot and 
> install Linux yet), is that this has to be done from Linux.

ybin is a linux utility.  macos does not provide the infrstructure for
me to build something similer, it would require a C program, I am not
a macos programmer and don't want to be.  

> It would be a lot more usefull if it was a MacOS tool

it might be useful to have a macos tool but my goal is to eliminate
the need to do everything from macos, also if you would read the web
page it explains quite clealy that the point of ybin is to provide a
quik/lilo like way to manage a bootstrap partition.  if that is not
what you want then ybin is not for you.

> or you at least had seperate docs, after downloading it I couldn't 
> unpackage it in MacOS and with no docs decided it wasn't worth 

tar.gz is hardly difficult to unpackage under macos.  lets leave the
misinformation out please.  there IS docs in the ybin package, not as
much as i would like, but 0.12 will have more.  

> the trouble to transfer to my x86 system to see what it consisted 

this is rubbish you don't need to transfer it to a intel system to
unpack it.  you seem to think that macos is only capable of extracting
stuffit archives. 

> of. Until someone produces some definitative consolidated 
> documentation for yaBoot and these other tools, so users can plan
> ahead, they are already going to have their system repartioned and 
> have reinstalled MacOS and install Linux to find out they are going 
> to have to do it all over again, yeh...right. 

I happen to be working on documenting all of this, and am more then
halfway there.  if you don't have a bootstrap partition then yes you
have to repartition or keep things on your macos partition. ybin will
allow you to install yaboot to a macos partition, but that
configuration forces you to screw with OF and that is why i don't
reccommend it.  i will not reccomend methods that require fscking with
OF becuase i know people don't want that.

-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Ramprasad Rao]

Extracting *.tar.gz in MacOS - find
a) macgzip
b) suntar
in your favourite info-mac mirror in the directory 'cmp'


ftp://ftp.amug.org/pub/mirrors/info-mac/cmp/macgzip.hqx
ftp://ftp.amug.org/pub/mirrors/info-mac/cmp/suntar-222.hqx




> On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 11:20:17AM -0800, Henry A. Worth wrote:
>
> > or you at least had seperate docs, after downloading it I couldn't
> > unpackage it in MacOS and with no docs decided it wasn't worth
>


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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Olaf Hering]

On Wed, Mar 29, Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:

>
> So I take it from this lengthy discussion that there is no concrete list of
> steps to install LinuxPPC on a Pismo Powerbook.  If there is one, could
> someone post it, since my brand spankin new pb is arriving Friday :-).
> Thanks.

Just create four partitions, one for MacOS, one small for Linux Boot in
HFS (32MB), one Linux Swap 128MB, one for Linux.
Then reinstall MacOS and play with it until the new install instructions
arrive at www.suse.com/ppc.


Gruss Olaf

--
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       Users never read manuals...

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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Henry A. Worth]

> From ramp@oddjob.uchicago.edu  Wed Mar 29 20:13:03 2000
> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:12:14 -0600 (CST)
> From: Ramprasad Rao <ramp@oddjob.uchicago.edu>
> cc: "Henry A. Worth" <haworth@ncal.verio.com>, linuxppc-dev@lists.linuxppc.org
> Subject: Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook
> MIME-Version: 1.0


> Extracting *.tar.gz in MacOS - find
> a) macgzip

Won't unzip ybin, and I've seen reports of others having the
same problems. Probably version problems, but it was
freshly downloaded.


> b) suntar
> in your favourite info-mac mirror in the directory 'cmp'


> ftp://ftp.amug.org/pub/mirrors/info-mac/cmp/macgzip.hqx
> ftp://ftp.amug.org/pub/mirrors/info-mac/cmp/suntar-222.hqx




> > On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 11:20:17AM -0800, Henry A. Worth wrote:
> >
> > > or you at least had seperate docs, after downloading it I couldn't
> > > unpackage it in MacOS and with no docs decided it wasn't worth
> >


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Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Henry A. Worth]

Argh, didn't add the maillist in my first response, so once again
from scratch.

> From: Ethan Benson <erbenson@alaska.net>

> On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 11:20:17AM -0800, Henry A. Worth wrote:
> >=20
> > I filled 32MB up quite easily with test kernels. Of course
> > normal users won't have that problem.  You should=20
> > leave enough room for several kernels so you can have a=20
> > basic rescue kernel and ramdisk, a good stable kernel, and=20
> > that spiffy new kernel that's going to mess everything up
> > and require you to use that rescue kernel. Also if you start
> > experimenting with the system folder approach you'll be dupping
> > yaboot and conf into the system folder.
> >=20

> kernels do not belong on the HFS boot partition, they belong on the
> ext2 root filesystem.  yaboot !=3D bootx it boots the kernels from ext2
> bootx does not.

That's interesting to know, I'd been wondering about that.

> >=20
> > Hm, didn't have that problem when I was using that.=20

A bit hard to boot off a root partition that doesn't exist, or
a CD that doesn't support your machine. Any good installation
is also going to have provisions for a rescue boot that doesn't
depend upon any of the Linux partitions. With floppies going the
way of the dodo, that usually means some form of boot partition.

In my case I also needed a setup that would allow me to use
MacOS to download test kernels until they worked reliably
enough to do a full install.

> some don't, when i worked on a similer project we would have multiple
> machines with the EXACT same OS version, one would consistently remove
> the blessing and boot blocks, the other hardly ever... =20

> > You shouldn't need the system folder nonsense if you also set boot-file.
> > Which is one of the nice things about this approach if a Linux-only
> > system.

> people hate messing with OF settings.  deal with it.  that is why i
> reccomend a non macos mountable bootstrap partition, with this
> configuration you do not need to touch OF.

I largely agree with you, but there are always alternative needs and
solutions.

> >=20
> > The problem I had with ybin (of course my perpective is someone=20
> > trying to debug support for a machine that will not boot and=20
> > install Linux yet), is that this has to be done from Linux.

> ybin is a linux utility.  macos does not provide the infrstructure for
> me to build something similer, it would require a C program, I am not
> a macos programmer and don't want to be. =20

> > It would be a lot more usefull if it was a MacOS tool

> it might be useful to have a macos tool but my goal is to eliminate
> the need to do everything from macos, also if you would read the web
> page it explains quite clealy that the point of ybin is to provide a
> quik/lilo like way to manage a bootstrap partition.  if that is not
> what you want then ybin is not for you.

Actually, ybin is probably a part of what I need, but I couldn't
determine that from Ben's link or your webpage.

> > or you at least had seperate docs, after downloading it I couldn't=20
> > unpackage it in MacOS and with no docs decided it wasn't worth=20

> tar.gz is hardly difficult to unpackage under macos.  lets leave the
> misinformation out please.  there IS docs in the ybin package, not as
> much as i would like, but 0.12 will have more. =20

The macgzip I downloaded would not unzip it, and I've seen other
complaints of the same. Probably not the latest version or IE
munged the download, but most potential users are not going
to spend their limited time debugging a tools packaging when they
have no reason to believe that tool is going to help them. That's
why enough seperate documentation is needed to know if this is
a must have and to be able to plan how and when it will be used.

> > the trouble to transfer to my x86 system to see what it consisted=20

> this is rubbish you don't need to transfer it to a intel system to
> unpack it.  you seem to think that macos is only capable of extracting
> stuffit archives.=20

Not at all, but there are limits to how much time I, or anyone else,
is going spend downloading tools for MacOs to support a utility that
they had not been convinced would be of use. I'm not interested in
MacOS or downloading a bunch of tools that I would only use once.
If it wasn't for DVD's, MacOS would have already been flushed from
my system as soon as I didn't need it to download kernels for testing.

> > of. Until someone produces some definitative consolidated=20
> > documentation for yaBoot and these other tools, so users can plan
> > ahead, they are already going to have their system repartioned and=20
> > have reinstalled MacOS and install Linux to find out they are going=20
> > to have to do it all over again, yeh...right.=20

> I happen to be working on documenting all of this, and am more then
> halfway there.  if you don't have a bootstrap partition then yes you
> have to repartition or keep things on your macos partition. ybin will
> allow you to install yaboot to a macos partition, but that
> configuration forces you to screw with OF and that is why i don't
> reccommend it.  i will not reccomend methods that require fscking with
> OF becuase i know people don't want that.

That's good news and badly needed, the two putative end-user
distributions have dropped the ball here. Since they are
the ones trying to make a buck pushing this on end users, I
view them as having the ultimate responsibility to throughly
document this stuff. With SUSE getting involved and some signs
that Mandrake is interested in PPC, there is hope for
improvement in that arena.

But any comprehensive document needs to cover all the options
and their pros and cons. Make your recommendations, but don't
forget that other users have different needs and biases. And
please make the document available seperate from your package
in plain text, HTML, or pdf. Wish I could help you, this is
badly needed, but until a few weeks ago I hadn't touched a
Mac in nearly a decade, and only have all the conflicting
opinions and facts I could glean, largely from these mailists,
to go by. I'd be happy to review your document if you'd like.


** Sent via the linuxppc-dev mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: LinuxPPC and Pismo Powerbook

[Ethan Benson]

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On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 12:07:44PM -0800, Henry A. Worth wrote:

> A bit hard to boot off a root partition that doesn't exist, or
> a CD that doesn't support your machine. Any good installation
> is also going to have provisions for a rescue boot that doesn't
> depend upon any of the Linux partitions. With floppies going the
> way of the dodo, that usually means some form of boot partition. 

yaboot will boot off ANY partition it knows how to read, including
HFS+ since it can just use OF's HFS+ support. you could boot a kernel
off your /home /var or /usr/local partition if you have them.  if you
have a macos partition i suggest dropping your kernel there and
booting it with yaboot.  this does not require the yaboot partition to
be macos readable.  

> In my case I also needed a setup that would allow me to use
> MacOS to download test kernels until they worked reliably
> enough to do a full install.

again no need for a macos readable bootstrap partition, keep your
kernels and initial yaboot on the macos partition and OF boot them
directly.  in this case no matter what you are going to have to screw
with OF.  there is not reason to ensure that you have to screw with OF
permanatly by making a macos mountable bootstrap partition.

> I largely agree with you, but there are always alternative needs and
> solutions. 

i have yet to see a compelling argument against the Apple_Bootstrap
partition type.  

> Actually, ybin is probably a part of what I need, but I couldn't 
> determine that from Ben's link or your webpage. 

ybin will do nothing for you on macos, that should be clear to anyone
who bothers to read the web page.  i don't care about macos and am not
going to learn to program macos to make something for it.

> The macgzip I downloaded would not unzip it, and I've seen other 
> complaints of the same. Probably not the latest version or IE
> munged the download, but most potential users are not going 
> to spend their limited time debugging a tools packaging when they 
> have no reason to believe that tool is going to help them. That's
> why enough seperate documentation is needed to know if this is
> a must have and to be able to plan how and when it will be used.

i fail to see how its my problem that people don't know how to
download a bloody file off the web without destroying it.   I also
have gotten exactly ZERO reports of this.  if people are having
problems they sure are not complaining very loudly. 

just to make sure the file on the server is not damaged:

[eb@socrates eb]$ md5sum src/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
6c97abe1edd55dd9b2ef141c89a2e1a7  src/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
[eb@socrates eb]$ ssh www.linuxppc.org
eb@www.linuxppc.org's password:
[eb@www ybin]$ md5sum ybin-0.11.tar.gz
6c97abe1edd55dd9b2ef141c89a2e1a7  ybin-0.11.tar.gz
[eb@www ybin]$

[eb@socrates eb]$ wget http://www.linuxppc.org/ybin/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
--19:29:41--  http://www.linuxppc.org:80/ybin/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
           => `ybin-0.11.tar.gz'
Connecting to www.linuxppc.org:80... connected!
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 22,400 [application/x-gunzip]

    0K -> .......... .......... . [100%]

19:29:46 (5.36 KB/s) - `ybin-0.11.tar.gz' saved [22400/22400]

[eb@socrates eb]$ md5sum ybin-0.11.tar.gz
6c97abe1edd55dd9b2ef141c89a2e1a7  ybin-0.11.tar.gz
[eb@socrates eb]$ md5sum src/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
6c97abe1edd55dd9b2ef141c89a2e1a7  src/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
[eb@socrates eb]$

[eb@socrates eb]$ wget http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ybin/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
--19:23:27--
http://www.alaska.net:80/%7Eerbenson/ybin/ybin-0.11.tar.gz
           => `ybin-0.11.tar.gz'
Connecting to www.alaska.net:80... connected!
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 22,400 [application/x-tar]

    0K -> .......... .......... . [100%]

19:23:32 (4.83 KB/s) - `ybin-0.11.tar.gz' saved [22400/22400]

[eb@socrates eb]$ md5sum ybin-0.11.tar.gz
6c97abe1edd55dd9b2ef141c89a2e1a7  ybin-0.11.tar.gz
[eb@socrates eb]$

as you can see no matter how i get it i always get a matching md5sum
with my original copy.

just in case you don't trust md5s:

[eb@socrates eb]$ cp src/ybin-0.11.tar.gz.asc .
[eb@socrates eb]$ gpg --verify ybin-0.11.tar.gz.asc
gpg: Signature made Mon 13 Mar 2000 06:54:03 AM AKST using DSA key ID 2C447AFC
gpg: Good signature from "Ethan R. Benson <erbenson@alaska.net>"
[eb@socrates eb]$

my local copy of the GnuPG signature the linuxppc.com copy of ybin.  

the file extracts just fine from linux, and just for good measure i
copied it to a floppy (the one downloaded from linuxppc.org) with
hfsutils and tried to extract it with Stuffit Expander 4.5 on my
powerbook 540c (running macos 8.1) it ungziped and untared it without
a single complaint, every file was perfectly intact.

I don't know what to tell, it looks to me like improperly downloaded
file, which will destroy your kernels just as well as a tarball.
maybe that is why you have problems booting your machine?

> Not at all, but there are limits to how much time I, or anyone else,
> is going spend downloading tools for MacOs to support a utility that

macos comes with stuffit expander which extracts tarballs just fine.
if it doesn't then there was a problem downloading, which would
destroy your kernels just as well as a tarball.  again i fail to see
how this is my problem.  

> they had not been convinced would be of use. I'm not interested in
> MacOS or downloading a bunch of tools that I would only use once.
> If it wasn't for DVD's, MacOS would have already been flushed from 

DeCSS, it removes cascading style sheets from web pages ;-)

> my system as soon as I didn't need it to download kernels for testing.
> 
> That's good news and badly needed, the two putative end-user 
> distributions have dropped the ball here. Since they are
> the ones trying to make a buck pushing this on end users, I 
> view them as having the ultimate responsibility to throughly
> document this stuff. With SUSE getting involved and some signs
> that Mandrake is interested in PPC, there is hope for 
> improvement in that arena.

debian's installation will take care of creating this bootstrap
partition and probably setup yaboot as part of the installtion.

> But any comprehensive document needs to cover all the options
> and their pros and cons. Make your recommendations, but don't
> forget that other users have different needs and biases. And 

i will mention that the bootstrap partition CAN but should not be a
regular HFS partition for the reasons i have stated.  but i am not
going to obfuscate the docs with lots of info about methods i have
found DO NOT WORK RELIABLY.

> please make the document available seperate from your package 
> in plain text, HTML, or pdf. Wish I could help you, this is

they are man pages, they will be posted to the internet in HTML format
and available in the distribution in nroff and probably HTML as well.

> badly needed, but until a few weeks ago I hadn't touched a 
> Mac in nearly a decade, and only have all the conflicting 
> opinions and facts I could glean, largely from these mailists,
> to go by. I'd be happy to review your document if you'd like.
> 

-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/

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