Pismo status

Pismo status

[Chris Leishman]

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Hi all,

Just curious what is/isn't current working in the latest kernels that
Ben has made available?  In particular, is power management working?? 
(I can't seem to get APM going, and it is sure draining power...)

Also - does anyone know how well the airport cards work (and who is working on
support for them?)

Thanks!

Chris Leishman

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Re: Pismo status

[Michel Dänzer]

Chris Leishman wrote:

> Just curious what is/isn't current working in the latest kernels that
> Ben has made available?

I've installed Debian on my Pismo yesterday, and the kernel provided by the
potato boot-floppies (2.2.15pre20, don't know if it's from Ben) has been
working fine so far, only thing is sound doesn't work for me (I should be able
to hear something after tuning up volume with gmix, right?).


> In particular, is power management working?? (I can't seem to get APM going,
> and it is sure draining power...)

I also wondered, my machine was getting very warm, almost hot. But then it
didn't even kick on the fan...


Michel


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______________________________________________________________________________
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)  \  CS student and free software enthusiast
Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc,i386) user \   member of XFree86, Team *AMIGA*, AUGS

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:46:43AM +0200, Michel Dänzer wrote:
> Chris Leishman wrote:
>
> > Just curious what is/isn't current working in the latest kernels that
> > Ben has made available?
>
> I've installed Debian on my Pismo yesterday, and the kernel provided by the
> potato boot-floppies (2.2.15pre20, don't know if it's from Ben) has been
> working fine so far, only thing is sound doesn't work for me (I should be able
> to hear something after tuning up volume with gmix, right?).
>
>
> > In particular, is power management working?? (I can't seem to get APM going,
> > and it is sure draining power...)
>
> I also wondered, my machine was getting very warm, almost hot. But then it
> didn't even kick on the fan...

Isn't it supposed to have no fan ?

Friendly,

Svne LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Chris Leishman]

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On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 04:15:45PM +0200, Sven LUTHER wrote:
<snip>
> 
> Isn't it supposed to have no fan ?
> 

It has a little one to vent air out from on top of the heatsinks when it
gets too warm (though I don't notice it come on very often under OS 9).

Chris

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Re: Pismo status

[Tim Wojtulewicz]

>Isn't it supposed to have no fan ?
>
>

No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
information about it, but I'm not having much luck.  If anything, try
running Paul's pmud (you can get it from rpmfind.net).  It helps a
little.

Tim

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Re: Pismo status

[Albrecht Dre_]

Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
> No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
> The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
> understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does this mean that I can damage the machine if I just run a high-load
program?!?


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Re: Pismo status

[Michael Schmitz]

> Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
> > No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
> > The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
> > understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Does this mean that I can damage the machine if I just run a high-load
> program?!?

I strongly doubt that. The PMU should handle this autonomously, regardless
of Linux support for the PMU.

	Michael


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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:54:22PM +0200, Michael Schmitz wrote:
> > Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
> > > No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
> > > The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
> > > understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
> >                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Does this mean that I can damage the machine if I just run a high-load
> > program?!?
>
> I strongly doubt that. The PMU should handle this autonomously, regardless
> of Linux support for the PMU.

Also, i think the ppc cpu will halt itself when becoming too hot, and not let
itself burn. At elast it was so since the earlier 680x0 cpus.

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Timothy A. Seufert]

At 2:08 PM +0200 5/17/00, Sven LUTHER wrote:
>On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:54:22PM +0200, Michael Schmitz wrote:
>>  > Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
>>  > > No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
>>  > > The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
>>  > > understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
>>  >                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  > Does this mean that I can damage the machine if I just run a high-load
>>  > program?!?
>>
>>  I strongly doubt that. The PMU should handle this autonomously, regardless
>>  of Linux support for the PMU.
>
>Also, i think the ppc cpu will halt itself when becoming too hot,

No, it will not.

The PowerPC 750 (G3) and 7400 (G4) can both fire off an interrupt
when the on-die temperature sensor reading rises above a trigger
value (or falls below a second trigger value).  This feature *could*
be used by an operating system to slow down the CPU (through the
instruction cache throttling feature) or halt it to prevent
overheating.  However, there is no hardware feature which can halt
the CPU without software control.

>  and not let
>itself burn. At elast it was so since the earlier 680x0 cpus.

As far as I know none of the 680x0 CPUs even had an on-die
temperature sensor, let alone a thermal shutdown feature.



I just talked with somebody who worked on the 101 project (popularly
and incorrectly known as "Lombard").  At least for that machine, the
fan is controlled as follows:

The normal mode is that MacOS controls the fan through the PMU.  The
PMU is connected to a thermistor located somewhere on the
motherboard.  MacOS scans the value of this thermistor every so often
and uses the fan to cool the machine if it's getting warm.  MacOS
takes advantage of the speed control feature of the fan, so it won't
crank the fan up to full speed if it doesn't have to.

If MacOS fails to turn the fan on for some reason, the PMU acts as a
backup controller -- it is also monitoring the thermistor and will
force the fan to turn on at full speed if a moderately high (but not
yet unsafe) temperature is reached.

If the PMU's fan override fails to stop the computer's temperature
from rising, and the temperature begins to approach dangerous levels,
the PMU will simply shut the machine down without asking.  (Most Macs
since the Mac II have had a thermal shutdown feature like this,
including the desktops.)

So, at least for 101, the fan should still come on without operating
system support, followed by an abrupt shutdown if the computer gets
way too hot.


The current PowerBook G3, 102 (the one with FireWire, popularly and
in this case correctly known as "Pismo"), does have a different PMU
than 101.  Apple did a major upgrade to the PMU used with all Core99
chipset machines, 102 included.  But it's fairly unlikely that Apple
changed the fan control technique very much.

   Tim Seufert

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

 There is one standard feature of automobiles that has not yet been
 implemented for computers, namely if you switch off the computer the
 cooling system should stay on until needed.

 (On my 101, I often hear the fan going on just when I need to shut
 down. The fact is that when I want to shut down, I do not want to
 wait for the fan, and I also put the screen down...)

 Sergio

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 09:13:37AM +0000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
>  There is one standard feature of automobiles that has not yet been
>  implemented for computers, namely if you switch off the computer the
>  cooling system should stay on until needed.
>
>  (On my 101, I often hear the fan going on just when I need to shut
>  down. The fact is that when I want to shut down, I do not want to
>  wait for the fan, and I also put the screen down...)

Or not power off before they finished writing to the disk or other such task
to be in a stable state, try removving the power cable from a not mobile
computer ...

Freindly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

>  (On my 101, I often hear the fan going on just when I need to shut
>  down. The fact is that when I want to shut down, I do not want to
>  wait for the fan, and I also put the screen down...)

>Or not power off before they finished writing to the disk or other such task
>to be in a stable state, try removving the power cable from a not mobile
>computer ...

 ... ``shutdown'' and ``unplug'' are not synonyms in my dictionary.

 SB

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 03:33:39PM +0000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
> >  (On my 101, I often hear the fan going on just when I need to shut
> >  down. The fact is that when I want to shut down, I do not want to
> >  wait for the fan, and I also put the screen down...)
>
> >Or not power off before they finished writing to the disk or other such task
> >to be in a stable state, try removving the power cable from a not mobile
> >computer ...
>
>  ... ``shutdown'' and ``unplug'' are not synonyms in my dictionary.

Well, yes, but unplugging could be much more damaging, and i guess a not
running cpu will surely not suffer from heat, ... :)))

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

 Sorry, I do not see your point.

 My point is that if the CPU is piping hot, and you shutdown the
 computer, no cooling is provided. This is wrong, as the fan has
 nothing to do with the OS and it *must* spin until the temperature
 reaches a safe level.

 Friendly,

 Sergio

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

>>  Sorry, I do not see your point.
>>
>>  My point is that if the CPU is piping hot, and you shutdown the
>>  computer, no cooling is provided. This is wrong, as the fan has
>>  nothing to do with the OS and it *must* spin until the temperature
>>  reaches a safe level.

>Well, the fan is there to remove the exess heat generated by a running CPU, if
>you shut off the CPU, there will be no more exess heat generated, and the
>existing heat will most assuredly be dissipated to less active cooling
>mechanism. Since you cannot damage the CPU, or other pieces of the hardware,
>this should cause no problem. And i think the G3 processor is not so hot
>running, that it will be so much above the safe temperature state.

 Ok Sven. You are convinced about your idea, but I am still skeptical.
 In order to persuade me, I need a proof. Please perform this simple
 experiment, then report the result. The experiment is as follows.
 Have a nice and long trip with your car, then come back home, and
 switch the engine off ensuring that the cooling fan is not spinning.
 Let us know if your car starts again the next day.

 If you prefer, you can perform the similar experiment with your brand new
 PowerBook 500Mhz. Just run an intensive floating point application
 for a long time, then shutdown. Keep doing it every day, for a week
 or so. Let us know it your jewel works fine at the end of it.

 Friendly,

 Sergio

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Re: Pismo status

[Worth]

On Fri, 19 May 2000, Sergio Brandano wrote:

>
> >>  Sorry, I do not see your point.
> >>
> >>  My point is that if the CPU is piping hot, and you shutdown the
> >>  computer, no cooling is provided. This is wrong, as the fan has
> >>  nothing to do with the OS and it *must* spin until the temperature
> >>  reaches a safe level.
>
> >Well, the fan is there to remove the exess heat generated by a running CPU, if
> >you shut off the CPU, there will be no more exess heat generated, and the
> >existing heat will most assuredly be dissipated to less active cooling
> >mechanism. Since you cannot damage the CPU, or other pieces of the hardware,
> >this should cause no problem. And i think the G3 processor is not so hot
> >running, that it will be so much above the safe temperature state.
>
>  Ok Sven. You are convinced about your idea, but I am still skeptical.
>  In order to persuade me, I need a proof. Please perform this simple
>  experiment, then report the result. The experiment is as follows.
>  Have a nice and long trip with your car, then come back home, and
>  switch the engine off ensuring that the cooling fan is not spinning.
>  Let us know if your car starts again the next day.

Bad analogy, many cars have fans that don't run after shutdown and
they run fine every day (I've never owned own that was any other
way). The ones that run electric fans after shutdown tend to be highly
stressed small engines with thin-wall blocks in cramped engine
compartments with poor air flow and small capacity high-pressure cooling
systems. In such situations there is a potential for localized boiling of
stagnant coolant around hot spots in the block. This can result in
problems like accelerated corrosion, coolant overflow, and coolant vapor
lock. Running the fans helps to maintain some coolant movement by
convection and to also cool the enginecompartment to avoid fuel-line
vapor lock.

Notebooks, are a very different case, none are liquid cooled and
the temperature levels and differences between coolant and
components are not so extreme. Nor are you constrained by the
boiling point of the coolant and the batteries are not going
to vapor lock.

If you are worried about your Pismo:

1) Leave your screen up for a few minutes after shutdown if it seems
   unusually hot (frankly mine has never been anywhere near as hot as
   it gets just idling in MacOS -- fire up a DVD and you could roast
   marshmellows). Convection through the keyboard is the primary cooling
   mechanism, the fan isn't even secondary (and if it did run after
   shutdown, it would have very limited effectiveness with the screen
   down).

OR:

2) You are free to not run Linux, but you better not run Darwin either.
   Darwin also doesn't have any thermal management for any of the
   PowerBooks. The high-level abstract classes for thermal management,
   including fan speed control, are in the new Darwin IOKit, but no
   machine specific implementations -- yet. Even with the thermal
   management of the fan speed, all you gain is a bit of noise and perhaps
   power reduction for transient thermal increases. If the increased
   thermal load is sustained, the fan will eventually have to run full
   speed, which is what the PMU appearently does anyway as a fail-safe.


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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

 I do not know why I am wasting time with this issue. Anyway, I have a
 very different experience on cooling both cars and computers. All the
 cars I happen to see do run the fan after shutdown (I can clearly
 hear the quiet after shutdown, then the sound of the fan after a few
 seconds). This is probably due to a different design for countries
 with a warm weather, as you report otherwise. Concerning computers,
 and Linux, it is running this OS that the situation improved, as far
 as Intel processors are concerned. I can say that the cpus, before
 the advent of the caged P-II, where so cold that I could safaly touch
 them. This was, again, using Linux. Using MS-Windows, instead, I
 could *not* do the similar thing for sure. And I have been using
 Intel processors for a long, long time. I have a very different
 experience with PPC. I purchased my first one last summer, and it is
 damn hot. How is that Linux does not help here? How is that PPC is
 claimed to be cooler than Intel? The bla-bla takes a different shape
 when you touch with the finger eh? I also experienced that GNOME's
 screen saver pumps up the CPU to 100% when it is active. If the
 PowerBook is cool before triggering the screen saver, it gets boiling
 hot (with fan spinning) after 30mins. Why is that? I would expect it
 to shut the display off and similar things, rather than deliberately
 trying to fry my baby. Anyway, I am done with this topic.

 Good luck you all.

 Sergio

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Re: Pismo status

[Michel Dänzer]

Sergio Brandano wrote:

I'm not going to comment on your flamebait other than if you think Intel is
better than PowerPC, sell your Powerbook and stop complaining.


> I also experienced that GNOME's screen saver pumps up the CPU to 100% when
> it is active. If the PowerBook is cool before triggering the screen saver,
> it gets boiling hot (with fan spinning) after 30mins. Why is that? I would
> expect it to shut the display off and similar things, rather than
> deliberately trying to fry my baby.

Just turn off the screensaver in the GNOME control center and it will behave
exactly like you expect it to.


Michel


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Re: Pismo status

[David A. Gatwood]

On Sat, 20 May 2000, Sergio Brandano wrote:

>  I do not know why I am wasting time with this issue. Anyway, I have a
>  very different experience on cooling both cars and computers. All the
>  cars I happen to see do run the fan after shutdown (I can clearly
>  hear the quiet after shutdown, then the sound of the fan after a few
>  seconds). This is probably due to a different design for countries
>  with a warm weather, as you report otherwise. Concerning computers,
>  and Linux, it is running this OS that the situation improved, as far
>  as Intel processors are concerned. I can say that the cpus, before
>  the advent of the caged P-II, where so cold that I could safaly touch
>  them. This was, again, using Linux. Using MS-Windows, instead, I
>  could *not* do the similar thing for sure. And I have been using
>  Intel processors for a long, long time. I have a very different
>  experience with PPC. I purchased my first one last summer, and it is
>  damn hot. How is that Linux does not help here? How is that PPC is
>  claimed to be cooler than Intel?

Don't compare Apples and Oranges.  You're comparing a Pentium II to a G3.
A PII is somewhere near a PPC 604 in terms of speed.  If you touch a 604
heat sink, in my experience, it's luke warm even after running for several
hundred days continuously under linux.  Been there, done that.

For a fair comparison to the G3, you need to consider at least a Pentium
III (at about half again faster clock speed ;-).

> I also experienced that GNOME's
>  screen saver pumps up the CPU to 100% when it is active. If the
>  PowerBook is cool before triggering the screen saver, it gets boiling
>  hot (with fan spinning) after 30mins.

Oh, this is a PowerBook.  The machine gets hot for a lot of reasons, not
just the CPU.  Video chips generate lots of heat, as does your hard drive,
as do the power regulation circuits on the various boards.  In fact, I'd
expect the cpu to be one of the cooler devices, normally.  ;-)


>  Why is that? I would expect it
>  to shut the display off and similar things, rather than deliberately
>  trying to fry my baby. Anyway, I am done with this topic.

When the fan kicks on, you're still nowhere near a dangerous operating
temperature....  The fan usually kicks on when there's insufficient heat
dissipation from the bottom of the case (e.g. sitting on a bed, couch,
etc.).  I've never had a fan kick on if the machine was on a hard surface,
and that's with the LapBurner (err... I mean WallStreet ;-).

You can always turn off the gnome screensaver and just use xset to turn on
screen blanking, though.  :-)


Later,
David

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:52:31PM -0700, David A. Gatwood wrote:
> On Sat, 20 May 2000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
> >  I do not know why I am wasting time with this issue. Anyway, I have a
> >  very different experience on cooling both cars and computers. All the
> >  cars I happen to see do run the fan after shutdown (I can clearly
> >  hear the quiet after shutdown, then the sound of the fan after a few
> >  seconds). This is probably due to a different design for countries
> >  with a warm weather, as you report otherwise. Concerning computers,
> >  and Linux, it is running this OS that the situation improved, as far
> >  as Intel processors are concerned. I can say that the cpus, before
> >  the advent of the caged P-II, where so cold that I could safaly touch

Well, ...

not so long ago i fried a Pentium 200 because i forgot to connect the fan ...

and believe me, it was not cold when i touched it, ...

> >  them. This was, again, using Linux. Using MS-Windows, instead, I
> >  could *not* do the similar thing for sure. And I have been using
> >  Intel processors for a long, long time. I have a very different
> >  experience with PPC. I purchased my first one last summer, and it is
> >  damn hot. How is that Linux does not help here? How is that PPC is
> >  claimed to be cooler than Intel?
>
> Don't compare Apples and Oranges.  You're comparing a Pentium II to a G3.
> A PII is somewhere near a PPC 604 in terms of speed.  If you touch a 604
> heat sink, in my experience, it's luke warm even after running for several
> hundred days continuously under linux.  Been there, done that.

Also it depends if your are using a tower or desktop casing, instead of a
laptop. The laptop is tiny, has no big cooling box and i think most heat of
your laptop comes from your harddisk, graphic chip, memory and DVD drive.

> For a fair comparison to the G3, you need to consider at least a Pentium
> III (at about half again faster clock speed ;-).

well, i think the pIII are less watt hungry, since they are done in a smaller
process. IBM is advertissing their G3 as using less than 6Watss, while PII
used more than 20/30 watts, not to compare with the fast athlons which use 50
watts and up. and since used watts are dissipated more or less into heat, ...

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

 ... I am glad I have the PB. I like it. No, better, I love it!
 And it feels so good at winter time. But sometimes my hands (and
 legs) feel way too warm... It is not a matter of heavy work when it
 happens, as word processing is not that demanding for a CPU. 6W
 rather than 30W sounds good, but I have no experience on P-III
 laptops, so I really could not tell about how they feel like.
 It seems that they have the fan ON all the time, that is also more
 silent than the PB one. Sony's VAIO is also slimmer than the PB...

> not so long ago i fried a Pentium 200 because i forgot to connect
> the fan ...

 Using Linux?

 SB

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:44:18PM +0000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
>  ... I am glad I have the PB. I like it. No, better, I love it!
>  And it feels so good at winter time. But sometimes my hands (and
>  legs) feel way too warm... It is not a matter of heavy work when it
>  happens, as word processing is not that demanding for a CPU. 6W
>  rather than 30W sounds good, but I have no experience on P-III

Well the PIII mobile cpus (which by the way are not full cpus compared to
their desktop counterpart) are done in a smaller process and should be below
20Watt, i think, maybe around 18Watt (at the smaller sppeds naturally).

>  laptops, so I really could not tell about how they feel like.
>  It seems that they have the fan ON all the time, that is also more
>  silent than the PB one. Sony's VAIO is also slimmer than the PB...
>
> > not so long ago i fried a Pentium 200 because i forgot to connect
> > the fan ...
>
>  Using Linux?

Well, yes, ... what else ?

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

>>  Using Linux?

>Well, yes, ... what else ?

 The Pentium implements the sleep function, as far as I remember,
 and Linux supports it. You probably had a broken kernel.

 (I am assuming a ``normal'' use of the computer, or course, where one
 writes, stops, thinks, then writes again and so forth.)

 SB

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:01:42PM +0000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
> >>  Using Linux?
>
> >Well, yes, ... what else ?
>
>  The Pentium implements the sleep function, as far as I remember,
>  and Linux supports it. You probably had a broken kernel.

Well, i was just installing debian on the box, it was not supposed to go to
sleep, ... and rather busy unpacking stuff also, ...

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

> Well, i was just installing debian on the box, it was not supposed
> to go to sleep, ... and rather busy unpacking stuff also, ...

 That task keeps the Hard Disk fairly busy and the CPU mostly quiet.
 You were probably doing something else with that CPU before
 installing Debian. Anyway, let see if we can improve the situation
 and have the pmud package for Debian PPC.

 SB

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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:16:44PM +0000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
> > Well, i was just installing debian on the box, it was not supposed
> > to go to sleep, ... and rather busy unpacking stuff also, ...
>
>  That task keeps the Hard Disk fairly busy and the CPU mostly quiet.
>  You were probably doing something else with that CPU before

Well, maybe on your fast G3 it does not strain the CPU to much, but on a slow
p 200, i think gunziping lots of files is going to use some CPU, at least
enough to not let the kernel put the cpu to sleep.

but lets stop this thread here also, ...

>  installing Debian. Anyway, let see if we can improve the situation
>  and have the pmud package for Debian PPC.

Sure, ..

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Michael Schmitz]

> >  installing Debian. Anyway, let see if we can improve the situation
> >  and have the pmud package for Debian PPC.
>
> Sure, ..

Speaking of which: can someone point me to the URL for the 0.6 pmud
source? If no one else is interested, I'd package it for Debian.

	Michael


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Re: Pismo status

[Michel Dänzer]

Michael Schmitz wrote:
>
> > >  installing Debian. Anyway, let see if we can improve the situation
> > >  and have the pmud package for Debian PPC.
> >
> > Sure, ..
>
> Speaking of which: can someone point me to the URL for the 0.6 pmud
> source?

Look at http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/~sb/PowerBook.html


> If no one else is interested, I'd package it for Debian.

That'd be nice.


Michel


--
Me? A skeptic? Can you prove it?
______________________________________________________________________________
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)  \  CS student and free software enthusiast
Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc,i386) user \   member of XFree86, Team *AMIGA*, AUGS

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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

>Speaking of which: can someone point me to the URL for the 0.6 pmud
>source? If no one else is interested, I'd package it for Debian.

 Just visit my page:
 http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/~sb/PowerBook.html

 Look under the "Power Management" section. You will find the
 intructions for a Debian installation and relative init file (written
 by me). Please contact Stephan Leemburg (stephan@jvc.nl) for it all.

 Sergio

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Re: Pismo status

[Michael Schmitz]

> >Speaking of which: can someone point me to the URL for the 0.6 pmud
> >source? If no one else is interested, I'd package it for Debian.
>
>  Just visit my page:
>  http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/~sb/PowerBook.html

Just when I thought I'd seen all the Powerbook Linux pages :-) Thanks for
the pointer.

>  Look under the "Power Management" section. You will find the
>  intructions for a Debian installation and relative init file (written
>  by me). Please contact Stephan Leemburg (stephan@jvc.nl) for it all.

I'll send him all my patches - seems like there's been some changes in
asm/pmu.h for instance.

	Michael


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Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

On Mon, 22 May 2000, Sergio Brandano wrote:

> >Speaking of which: can someone point me to the URL for the 0.6 pmud
> >source? If no one else is interested, I'd package it for Debian.
>
>  Just visit my page:
>  http://www.dcs.qmw.ac.uk/~sb/PowerBook.html
>
>  Look under the "Power Management" section. You will find the
>  intructions for a Debian installation and relative init file (written
>  by me). Please contact Stephan Leemburg (stephan@jvc.nl) for it all.

OK, the Debian package plus diff/changes/dsc stuff is up for testing on
ftp.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de:/pub/linux/powerpc - it's not a final
version yet, I need to figure out how to have the Debian postinst
automatically create the /etc/rc*.d symlinks. If someone wants to play
with it, go ahead.

With 2.2.15pre9 kernel headers, I had to use the following patch to make
pmud-0.6 compile on LinuxPPC:

--- pmud-0.6/pmu.h.org	Mon May 22 18:26:31 2000
+++ pmud-0.6/pmu.h	Mon May 22 18:27:08 2000
@@ -19,8 +19,3 @@

 #define PMU_SMART_BATT		0x6f	/* report smart battery state */
 #define PMU_GET_VERSION		0xea	/* get pmu firmware version # */
-
-/* Kind of PMU (model) */
-enum {
-	PMU_KEYLARGO_BASED=3,	/* iBook */
-};

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Sergio Brandano]

 Thank's a lot for making this package. Did you manage to contact
 Stephan? What about the apmd patch?

 On testing, I'm out of business for a while, as the baby is being
 visited by the doctor (faulty display).

 Sergio

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

>  Thank's a lot for making this package. Did you manage to contact
>  Stephan? What about the apmd patch?

Just what I needed to get half way up to speed with Debian packaging again
:-)

I've not had an answer from Stephan but I didn't give him any heads-up
either. The apmd patch seems to be included, it's enabled by the -a option
to pmud as far as I could see. The fifo (/etc/power/apm) is created
during installation, so all it should take is adding the -a to the
PMUD_FLAGS definition in /etc/default/power. I need to document this :-)

>  On testing, I'm out of business for a while, as the baby is being
>  visited by the doctor (faulty display).

Speedy recovery for the baby ...

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Stephan Leemburg]

on 23-05-2000 20:09, Michael Schmitz at
schmitz@zirkon.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de wrote:

>> Thank's a lot for making this package. Did you manage to contact
>> Stephan? What about the apmd patch?

Yes, thanks! If you wish I can pull it to my source-tree and also distribute
the debian package on every release...

>
> Just what I needed to get half way up to speed with Debian packaging again
> :-)
>
> I've not had an answer from Stephan but I didn't give him any heads-up
> either. The apmd patch seems to be included, it's enabled by the -a option
> to pmud as far as I could see. The fifo (/etc/power/apm) is created
> during installation, so all it should take is adding the -a to the
> PMUD_FLAGS definition in /etc/default/power. I need to document this :-)

Yes, it's activated with the -a flag (see pmud --help for details). I need
to modify the manuals and /etc/power/apm. You must have a modified apm
program to use it however, as the 'standard' apm programs all read from
/proc/apm and this path is usually compile time determined...

--
Stephan

>
>> On testing, I'm out of business for a while, as the baby is being
>> visited by the doctor (faulty display).
>
> Speedy recovery for the baby ...
>
> Michael
>


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Re: PMUD vs APM

[Joseph Garcia]

Stephan Leemburg wrote:
> Yes, it's activated with the -a flag (see pmud --help for details). I need
> to modify the manuals and /etc/power/apm. You must have a modified apm
> program to use it however, as the 'standard' apm programs all read from
> /proc/apm and this path is usually compile time determined...

I also found this kind of annoying.  And as far as I can tell, APM doesn't show
everything.  This is why I wrote a plugin for GKrellM that, using PMUD, displays
battery status in a window.  Its almost as good as Batmon, but smaller.  I know
this works on Wallstreet, PDQ, and Lombard, and have untested code for other
systems.  If you already used GKrellM, this is something to try.  And I still
need testers for systems I don't have access to.

Are there any other PMU-savvy monitors out there?

Thanks.

--
Joseph P. Garcia      jpgarcia@execpc.com      jpgarcia@lidar.ssec.wisc.edu
CS Undergraduate                      Student Employee - Systems Programmer
University of Wisconsin - Madison                            UW Lidar Group

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Re: PMUD vs APM

[Sergio Brandano]

 Hi Joseph,

> I also found this kind of annoying.  And as far as I can tell, APM
> doesn't show everything.  This is why I wrote a plugin for GKrellM
> that, using PMUD, displays battery status in a window.

 You are right. I have dropped my interest on apmd since I discovered
 gkrellm-pmud. And I have been advertising it on (my) PB page too, as
 you probably know.

> Its almost as good as Batmon, but smaller.

 I find gkrellm way better than Batmon. Why do you say ``almost''?
 Why is Batmon still better than gkrellm-pmud? (it results to me that
 the underlying code was written by Paul...)

 It would be a good thing, however, to have a unified monitoring
 system despite the hardware. I mean Intels are based on apm, PPCs are
 based on pmu, but do applications need to know it?

 Sergio

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Re: PMUD vs APM

[Joseph Garcia]

Sergio Brandano wrote:
> > Its almost as good as Batmon, but smaller.
>
>  I find gkrellm way better than Batmon. Why do you say ``almost''?
>  Why is Batmon still better than gkrellm-pmud? (it results to me that
>  the underlying code was written by Paul...)

testing, and a few features.  as a battery monitor, gkrellm-pmu has the needed
features.  Ohare-based systems seem to have a temperature sensor on the battery
though.  One of those testing things.  I only have access to my PDQ/300. :(

>  It would be a good thing, however, to have a unified monitoring
>  system despite the hardware. I mean Intels are based on apm, PPCs are
>  based on pmu, but do applications need to know it?

My 0.02 on the matter is that we don't really need to bow down to APM, just
support it.  There may be a few programs out there that do stuff with APM that
we dont need to reinvent.  example that may or may not exist, an dialog box that
pops up warning low battery.  But since PMU has the ability to list additional
information (current, 2 batteries), why not use it?  I prefer knowing more than
just batt/ac and charge.  But others might not care. In the end, I suppose its
better to support APM than not to.

I plan on updating my plugin later today.  RPMs and locales.. oooh.

--
Joseph P. Garcia      jpgarcia@execpc.com      jpgarcia@lidar.ssec.wisc.edu
CS Undergraduate                      Student Employee - Systems Programmer
University of Wisconsin - Madison                            UW Lidar Group

"Did you ever notice how the Chinese Abacus, with 2 '5' beads and 5 '1'
beads, is perfect for hexidecimal math?"

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Re: PMUD vs APM

[Steven Hanley]

>  It would be a good thing, however, to have a unified monitoring
>  system despite the hardware. I mean Intels are based on apm, PPCs are
>  based on pmu, but do applications need to know it?

hopefully I am not rambling or overly much off topic here...

Agreed, common user space interfaqces so any tools in userspce can
access and use the features. Stephen Rothwell is the APM maintainer
(kernel space) and he works in the same office as Paul, I have asked
Stpehen in the past about any similarities between APM and power book
powersaving interfaces and he has said it is completely different, this
is undersatrandable. Paul of course has a verry good power management
system set up on his laptop (lombard ?) of course.

But if someone were to sit down and work out what power management is
all about and some way of displaying a common extensible interface from
kernel to user space it would be good. Thus we could have ACPI (or
whatever the new one is called) and APM and PMUD code in the kernel
providing interfaces any tools can work with. What they do in kernel
space is their business (the completely different parts Stpehen
mentioned)

It would need to be extensible and standardised, so say some new thing
becomes available in power management tools can support it easily and
not break etc etc. ie. be able to present all capabilites and new
capabilities as they appear etc etc. I am sure people understand the
ideas, anyway I agree a common user space interface would be a good
thing. I personally dont have a laptop (or currently spare time <g>,
then who has any of that?) and I dont even know if my 7220/200 has power
management hardware in it. Though my dual pII/350 I know has both APM
and ACPI support, though I have never used either, as APM is undefined
on SMP (well apart from the power off on shutdown trick, and even that
took a while to get working) and I have yet to see a need to try to use
ACPI on the dual box.

	See You
	    Steve

--
sjh@wibble.net http://wibble.net/~sjh/
Look Up In The Sky
   Is it a bird?  No
      Is it a plane?  No
         Is it a small blue banana?
YES

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

> >> Thank's a lot for making this package. Did you manage to contact
> >> Stephan? What about the apmd patch?
>
> Yes, thanks! If you wish I can pull it to my source-tree and also distribute
> the debian package on every release...

That would make my job a lot easier. I still have some things to clean up
though (what subsection of the distribution; it's currently in base but
should rather go in admin like apmd; and the rc symlink generation)

I'll probably best leave xmouse out of the package; a tool to read the
mouse configuration via ADB on sleep and restore it on wakeup would be
nice to have instead.

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

> > Yes, thanks! If you wish I can pull it to my source-tree and also distribute
> > the debian package on every release...
>
> That would make my job a lot easier. I still have some things to clean up
> though (what subsection of the distribution; it's currently in base but
> should rather go in admin like apmd; and the rc symlink generation)

OK, there's a new version of the package on my FTP site, it handles the rc
symlinks itself now and has a pwrctl function added for the iBook and
Pismo models. It would be good to see how that works in practice when pmud
attempts to put the machine to sleep (due to low power). I force the
display backlight to 0 (off) and the disk to shut down (hdparm -Y) which
worked OK for me (took a few hda timeouts and such to recover from it). If
there's any other components that can be shut down from user space please
let me know (hdc would be another candidate if it's installed - is the
Pismo media bay or iBook CDROM at hdc?

I'll upload the package to unstable immediately. It won't go into potato
anymore but that shouln't be too bad. If someone on debian-powerpc
objects, please CC me, I'm not on that list yet.

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michel Dänzer]

Michael Schmitz wrote:

> OK, there's a new version of the package on my FTP site, it handles the rc
> symlinks itself now and has a pwrctl function added for the iBook and
> Pismo models.

Thanks, will test it.


> It would be good to see how that works in practice when pmud attempts to put
> the machine to sleep (due to low power).

When I tried to run snooze with the old version, it said 'function not
implemented' or similar - is this related?


> is the Pismo media bay or iBook CDROM at hdc?

The DVD-ROM in my Pismo is hde.


Michel


--
Here I am! Now what are your other two wishes?
______________________________________________________________________________
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)  \  CS student and free software enthusiast
Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc,i386) user \   member of XFree86, Team *AMIGA*, AUGS

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

>
> > It would be good to see how that works in practice when pmud attempts to put
> > the machine to sleep (due to low power).
>
> When I tried to run snooze with the old version, it said 'function not
> implemented' or similar - is this related?

That's the message. pmud tries to issue the sleep ioctl, which fails in
the kernel and generates that message (or the message was generated by the
pwrctl script, it's quiet now).

If you want to experiment a bit, try snooze and see if the disk stays off
until you force disk activity somehow. The screen should switch off as
well but can be re-lighted by the brightness buttons so you see what
you're typing.

If the disk stays off, and the machine cools down sufficiently you may
even attempt to close the lid (which will try a snooze as well). I can't
tell if that's safe with the remaining amount of power consumption though.

If the machine would get too hot with disk off and lid closed, we'll have
to force a shutdown on these machines as soon as the lid is closed, to
keep users from damaging their box.

> > is the Pismo media bay or iBook CDROM at hdc?
>
> The DVD-ROM in my Pismo is hde.

OK, I'll add that to the sleep clause in the Core99 function.

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Francois Felix Ingrand]

Sorry to step in this thread, but I am interested in having those
power management capabilities on my Pismo too. I use LinuxPPC 2000
(2.2.15pre19)

Where can I get the RPMS or tar files.

Thanks in advance,

> > > is the Pismo media bay or iBook CDROM at hdc?
> >
> > The DVD-ROM in my Pismo is hde.

So is mine.


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

> Sorry to step in this thread, but I am interested in having those
> power management capabilities on my Pismo too. I use LinuxPPC 2000
> (2.2.15pre19)
>
> Where can I get the RPMS or tar files.

http://www3.jvc.nl/linuxppc/


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Robert Thompson]

on 5/26/00 5:25 AM, Michael Schmitz at
schmitz@opal.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de wrote:

>
>> Sorry to step in this thread, but I am interested in having those
>> power management capabilities on my Pismo too. I use LinuxPPC 2000
>> (2.2.15pre19)
>>
>> Where can I get the RPMS or tar files.
>
> http://www3.jvc.nl/linuxppc/
>
>
OK, so, I got the source, applied the patch I found, and built it. Well, I
tried to... it failed because pmu.h redeclared something that was in some
system header of the same name... I commented out the thing in pmu.h
(something about PMU_TYPE) and it compiled... but I was worried, because the
thing I commented out had a comment saying /* iBook */ and I happen to be
using an iBook SE. But, anything to get it to compile, right? It appears to
report battery status correctly. I'm using the latest rsync kernel. But when
I try to put the machine to sleep, it starts saying "hda: lost interrupt"
and becomes unusable. Also, it should be noted that the iBook's CD-ROM *is*
hdc (I seem to remember that being a question earlier). Any ideas?

Later,
Robbie Thompson


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

> >> Where can I get the RPMS or tar files.
> >
> > http://www3.jvc.nl/linuxppc/
> >
> >
> OK, so, I got the source, applied the patch I found, and built it. Well, I
> tried to... it failed because pmu.h redeclared something that was in some
> system header of the same name... I commented out the thing in pmu.h

That's OK, I had to do the same when building with 2.2.15 kernel headers.
Debian ships with 2.2.10 (at least the pre-release version I installed had
2.2.10 headers) so I left it that way. Stephan apparently didn't compile
pmud with 2.2.15 headers either. If it was a simple #define we could work
around it, but it defines an additional element in the PMU version enum
and I don't know how to test for that (short of mucking with configure
tricks, of course). Just ignore it for now.

If the Debian powerpc release kernel is 2.2.15 I'll take care of that in
the Debian package. What you got was Stephan's LinuxPPC package, I can't
update that one, obviously.

CC: to Stephan (no idea if he's on the list), please contact him for
further questions.

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michel Dänzer]

Michael Schmitz wrote:

> If the Debian powerpc release kernel is 2.2.15 I'll take care of that in
> the Debian package.

It probably will be. The boot-floppies I used to install it on my Pismo
contained 2.2.15pre20, and they want an 'officially' released kernel for the
potato release.


Michel


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

> > If the Debian powerpc release kernel is 2.2.15 I'll take care of that in
> > the Debian package.
>
> It probably will be. The boot-floppies I used to install it on my Pismo
> contained 2.2.15pre20, and they want an 'officially' released kernel for the
> potato release.

Thanks for the heads-up - I'll update the package accordingly. My first
upload got rejected because I botched the signing procedure, I'll have to
redo it anyway.

Any chance we can convince Richard to let this package slip into the
potato release yet?

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Daniel Jacobowitz]

On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 02:03:09PM +0200, Michael Schmitz wrote:
> If the Debian powerpc release kernel is 2.2.15 I'll take care of that in
> the Debian package. What you got was Stephan's LinuxPPC package, I can't
> update that one, obviously.

It is.  Probably Cort's 2.2.16pre4, in fact - building it now.

Dan

/--------------------------------\  /--------------------------------\
|       Daniel Jacobowitz        |__|        SCS Class of 2002       |
|   Debian GNU/Linux Developer    __    Carnegie Mellon University   |
|         dan@debian.org         |  |       dmj+@andrew.cmu.edu      |
\--------------------------------/  \--------------------------------/

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Mon, May 29, 2000, Daniel Jacobowitz <drow@false.org> wrote:

>> If the Debian powerpc release kernel is 2.2.15 I'll take care of that in
>> the Debian package. What you got was Stephan's LinuxPPC package, I can't
>> update that one, obviously.
>
>It is.  Probably Cort's 2.2.16pre4, in fact - building it now.

I tried this kernel yesterday and it doesn't boot the Pismo. I'll try to
fix that before the end of the week. (I'm taking a few days off so I'll
have some time for linux hacking ;)

Ben.


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Daniel Jacobowitz]

On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 10:57:49AM +0200, Benjamin Herrenschmidt wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 29, 2000, Daniel Jacobowitz <drow@false.org> wrote:
>
> >> If the Debian powerpc release kernel is 2.2.15 I'll take care of that in
> >> the Debian package. What you got was Stephan's LinuxPPC package, I can't
> >> update that one, obviously.
> >
> >It is.  Probably Cort's 2.2.16pre4, in fact - building it now.
>
> I tried this kernel yesterday and it doesn't boot the Pismo. I'll try to
> fix that before the end of the week. (I'm taking a few days off so I'll
> have some time for linux hacking ;)

*sigh* Thanks.

I'm going to stick with Cort's tree; if you can get a fix to him in
time I will try to include it but we may or may not have a chance.

Dan

/--------------------------------\  /--------------------------------\
|       Daniel Jacobowitz        |__|        SCS Class of 2002       |
|   Debian GNU/Linux Developer    __    Carnegie Mellon University   |
|         dan@debian.org         |  |       dmj+@andrew.cmu.edu      |
\--------------------------------/  \--------------------------------/

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Francois Felix Ingrand]

Michael Schmitz <schmitz@opal.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de> writes:

> > Sorry to step in this thread, but I am interested in having those
> > power management capabilities on my Pismo too. I use LinuxPPC 2000
> > (2.2.15pre19)
> >
> > Where can I get the RPMS or tar files.
>
> http://www3.jvc.nl/linuxppc/

I already installed this version on my pismo. As far as I can tell, it only
supports battery charge level on this powerbook model. Am I right?

--
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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

>
> I already installed this version on my pismo. As far as I can tell, it only
> supports battery charge level on this powerbook model. Am I right?

Yes. Sleep needs kernel support which isn't done yet.

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Francois Felix Ingrand]

Michael Schmitz <schmitz@opal.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de> writes:

> >
> > I already installed this version on my pismo. As far as I can tell, it only
> > supports battery charge level on this powerbook model. Am I right?
>
> Yes. Sleep needs kernel support which isn't done yet.

Indeed, yesterday I closed my pismo... and it fills /var/log/messages with
messages about not being able to go to sleep.

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 des américains avec les gains de productivités des salariés français?"
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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michel Dänzer]

Michael Schmitz wrote:

> > I already installed this version on my pismo. As far as I can tell, it
> > only supports battery charge level on this powerbook model. Am I right?
>
> Yes.

How? At least the gkrellm pmud plugin doesn't show the charge level here.


Michel


--
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______________________________________________________________________________
Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)  \  CS student and free software enthusiast
Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc,i386) user \   member of XFree86, Team *AMIGA*, AUGS

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michael Schmitz]

> > > I already installed this version on my pismo. As far as I can tell, it
> > > only supports battery charge level on this powerbook model. Am I right?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> How? At least the gkrellm pmud plugin doesn't show the charge level here.

You need the -a flag for pmud to switch on apm support, plus the plugin
needs to read from /etc/power/apm instead from /proc somewhere.

	Michael


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Joseph Garcia]

Michael Schmitz wrote:
> > How? At least the gkrellm pmud plugin doesn't show the charge level here.
>
> You need the -a flag for pmud to switch on apm support, plus the plugin
> needs to read from /etc/power/apm instead from /proc somewhere.

the GKrellM PMU plugin uses PMUD directly rather than using the APM-frontend.
What PMU_VERSION id does the Pismo have?  the plugin is written to support up to
12 (keylargo/iBook).  My page lists Pismo as unsupported because I know nothing
about how PMUD handles it.  Looking at the code, it appears as if it is just
another smart battery.  But there is no evidence to a PMU_VERSION relating to
it.  Does Batmon display for Pismo systems?  I could update it to support Pismo
ASAP if I get some input.

For plugins like this, should the pmud.h be put in a public location, like
/usr/include/pmud?  It has useful info, like PMU_VERSION and related strings,
which dont need to be in several places.  also makes a nice dependancy to make
sure PMUD is installed.

Thanks.

--
Joseph P. Garcia      jpgarcia@execpc.com      jpgarcia@lidar.ssec.wisc.edu
CS Undergraduate                      Student Employee - Systems Programmer
University of Wisconsin - Madison                            UW Lidar Group

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michel Dänzer]

Joseph Garcia wrote:

> What PMU_VERSION id does the Pismo have?  the plugin is written to support
> up to 12 (keylargo/iBook).

Is reported as 12 on my Pismo.

> My page lists Pismo as unsupported because I know nothing about how PMUD
> handles it.  Looking at the code, it appears as if it is just another smart
> battery.  But there is no evidence to a PMU_VERSION relating to it.

The gkrellm plugin (v0.9) always shows an empty battery and 0:00 rest time.

> Does Batmon display for Pismo systems?  I could update it to support Pismo
> ASAP if I get some input.

Francois told me it does; haven't tested it myself.


Michel


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Been there, done that, can't remember why...
______________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pismo battery support (was 'Re: Debian pmud package available')

[Joseph Garcia]

Michel D舅zer wrote:
> Is reported as 12 on my Pismo.

hmm..  Any handy way to tell the difference between the iBook's single and the
Pismo's dual battery capacities?

> The gkrellm plugin (v0.9) always shows an empty battery and 0:00 rest time.

I think at that time, I hadn't thought about error handling.  Those are the
default values, and at the time of v0.9, I had never heard of keylargo.

Its been updated to 0.12 recently.  It handles id 12 the same as a G3 series,
but assumes it only has the left battery (lone iBook battery).  Maybe I should
make it the same as a g3 series.  Later today, I'll see about updating that.  in
the meantime, if you have the time, try the newer version.  Since I assumed 12
has only one battery, it should only show the left battery on a pismo.  you
could edit the sys_pmu.nbattery=1 line to =2 in the KEYLARGO section in
gkrellm-pmu.c:95, and that should fix that.

http://www.execpc.com/~jpgarcia/

Thanks for your help.  It is much appreceated.

--
Joseph P. Garcia      jpgarcia@execpc.com      jpgarcia@lidar.ssec.wisc.edu
CS Undergraduate                      Student Employee - Systems Programmer
University of Wisconsin - Madison                            UW Lidar Group

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Re: Pismo battery support (was 'Re: Debian pmud package available')

[Michel Dänzer]

Joseph Garcia wrote:

> > Since I assumed 12 has only one battery, it should only show the left
> > battery on a pismo.  you could edit the sys_pmu.nbattery=1 line to =2 in
> > the KEYLARGO section in gkrellm-pmu.c:95, and that should fix that.

As I have only one battery (yet)...


> Thanks for your help.  It is much appreceated.

Thanks for your good work!


Michel


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I believe the technical term is "Oops!"
______________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Pismo battery support (was 'Re: Debian pmud package available')

[Stephan Leemburg]

Hi to all,

FYI, in 2.2.16pre4, there is NO support for letting the Pismo and the
iBook sleep. It is however, as proven by the discussed battery monitors,
possible to get some info on the battery status. Supporting the KEYLARGO
is no trivial task, first of all, you need to have a iBook or Pismo to
experiment with and then get your hands dirty on trial and error kernel
modifications.
As I don't own a iBook or a Pismo, I cannot experiment with it and
experimenting over the net - that is one person writing the testcode and
the other testing it on a KEYLARGO based machine - is far to
inconvenient and will most probably not work.

For what that experimenting is concerned, I believe that in the latest
Darwin kernel there is some powermanagement code, which could be analysed.

Note that even though you cannot put the machines to sleep, you can have
pmud signal init that there is a powerfailure and have it shutdown...

--
Stephan

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Re: Pismo battery support (was 'Re: Debian pmud package available')

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Wed, Jun 7, 2000, Stephan Leemburg <sleemburg@jvc.nl> wrote:

>FYI, in 2.2.16pre4, there is NO support for letting the Pismo and the
>iBook sleep. It is however, as proven by the discussed battery monitors,
>possible to get some info on the battery status. Supporting the KEYLARGO
>is no trivial task, first of all, you need to have a iBook or Pismo to
>experiment with and then get your hands dirty on trial and error kernel
>modifications.

I'm the happy owner of a Pismo since one or two weeks. Implementing sleep
on this machine (and on the iBook) is on my to-do list (I already
gathered various infos on KeyLargo from the Darwin sources and some MacOS
hacking). I will first work on improving the gmac driver, which seems to
be more urgent, and then work on that sleep support.

>As I don't own a iBook or a Pismo, I cannot experiment with it and
>experimenting over the net - that is one person writing the testcode and
>the other testing it on a KEYLARGO based machine - is far to
>inconvenient and will most probably not work.
>
>For what that experimenting is concerned, I believe that in the latest
>Darwin kernel there is some powermanagement code, which could be analysed.

It's still not complete, but there are interesting bits scattered here or
there. The basic mecanism seems to be the same as for the wallstreet and
lombard: the CPU is powered OFF by the PMU after entering a special
sleep-loop. We need to fix this sleep-loop so that it resist to spurrious
wake-ups by the decrementer interrupt, but that's a detail.

The different thing is the way things are powered off before sleep and
turned back on after sleep. It's a lot different for KeyLargo that it was
for Heathrow and Paddington, but Darwin source is helpful here. I plan to
rework (again) the arch/ppc/kernel/features.c stuffs to add more
abstractions that match keylargo and uni-north new FCRs and power control.

>Note that even though you cannot put the machines to sleep, you can have

>pmud signal init that there is a powerfailure and have it shutdown...
>


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Michel Dänzer]

Michel Dänzer wrote:

> The gkrellm plugin (v0.9) always shows an empty battery and 0:00 rest time.

Just realized there are later versions (things advance quickly there :). v0.12
works perfectly with gkrellm 0.9.10, only thing is it reports my Pismo as an
iBook...


Michel


--
So many Christians, so few lions.
______________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Francois Felix Ingrand]

Michel Dänzer <daenzer@relog.ch> writes:

> > Does Batmon display for Pismo systems?  I could update it to support Pismo
> > ASAP if I get some input.
>
> Francois told me it does; haven't tested it myself.

I confirm it does display... and the information displayed seem to be
"meaningful".

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"20% de la population mondiale consomme 86% des ressources." Rapport ONU, 1998.
Professional: http://www.laas.fr/~felix               mailto:felix@laas.fr
Personal: http://www.ingrand.net/felix                mailto:felix@ingrand.net

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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Wilhelm Fitzpatrick]

> OK, the Debian package plus diff/changes/dsc stuff is up for testing on
> ftp.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de:/pub/linux/powerpc - it's not a final
> version yet, I need to figure out how to have the Debian postinst
> automatically create the /etc/rc*.d symlinks. If someone wants to play
> with it, go ahead.

I'm testing, seems good on my PB3400.  It's nice being able to have the
network interface cycled automatically, and I added "trackpad notap" to my
wakeup sequence so I don't forget ;)

A few questions --

what is xmouse?  Why is it included?

Also, the gnome battery monitor applet tells me I don't have APM support.
Batmon is okay, but I'd really like to have panel applet battery level.
Is this just not supported yet?

-raf


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Re: Debian pmud package available

[Stephan Leemburg]

on 24-05-2000 02:31, Wilhelm Fitzpatrick at rafial@well.com wrote:

>> OK, the Debian package plus diff/changes/dsc stuff is up for testing on
>> ftp.biophys.uni-duesseldorf.de:/pub/linux/powerpc - it's not a final
>> version yet, I need to figure out how to have the Debian postinst
>> automatically create the /etc/rc*.d symlinks. If someone wants to play
>> with it, go ahead.
>
> I'm testing, seems good on my PB3400.  It's nice being able to have the
> network interface cycled automatically, and I added "trackpad notap" to my
> wakeup sequence so I don't forget ;)
>
> A few questions --
>
> what is xmouse?  Why is it included?

xmouse is for some of our users... we have a couple of salespersons walking
around with Wallstreets and LinuxPPC on it, so they can run our rdbms
programs. As they are salespersons, we keep everything unix away from them.
They complaint that the mouse-settings weren't saved on reboot, so I made
xmouse, which asks the X-server what the current settings are and can also
set (a la xset -m) the mouse settings in the server. I included it as a
utility, it's not related to powermanagement, but it is to restoring stuff
at booting.

>
> Also, the gnome battery monitor applet tells me I don't have APM support.

Because it looks for /proc/apm, I guess...

> Batmon is okay, but I'd really like to have panel applet battery level.

See if you can change the path /proc/apm in the applet to /etc/power/apm.

> Is this just not supported yet?

Yes it is, note to use the -a flag for pmud. I plan to build a
apm-kernel-module which supplies apm on top of powerbook pmu, so in the near
future hopefully all apm stuff runs unmodified.
--
Stephan

>
> -raf
>
>


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Re: Pismo status

[Timothy A. Seufert]

At 9:51 AM +0000 5/20/00, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>  I do not know why I am wasting time with this issue. Anyway, I have a
>  very different experience on cooling both cars and computers. All the
>  cars I happen to see do run the fan after shutdown (I can clearly
>  hear the quiet after shutdown, then the sound of the fan after a few
>  seconds). This is probably due to a different design for countries
>  with a warm weather, as you report otherwise.

My car (designed for a country with warm weather) does not do this.
Many cars aren't even capable of it: they don't have an electric
engine fan, choosing instead to run the fan off an engine accessory
drive belt, meaning that the fan can only run while the engine runs.

>  Concerning computers,
>  and Linux, it is running this OS that the situation improved, as far
>  as Intel processors are concerned. I can say that the cpus, before
>  the advent of the caged P-II, where so cold that I could safaly touch
>  them. This was, again, using Linux. Using MS-Windows, instead, I
>  could *not* do the similar thing for sure.

So you never did anything processor intensive under Linux, eh?

>  And I have been using
>  Intel processors for a long, long time. I have a very different
>  experience with PPC. I purchased my first one last summer, and it is
>  damn hot. How is that Linux does not help here? How is that PPC is
>  claimed to be cooler than Intel? The bla-bla takes a different shape
>  when you touch with the finger eh?

If you're talking about notebooks, the problem is that Apple doesn't
do a particularly good job of getting rid of heat.  They've been
getting better with recent models, but many of their notebooks just
don't have very good cooling systems and thus build up to a high
temperature easily.  There is a difference between temperature and
heat.

If you're talking about desktop machines where cooling systems are
much easier, you're nuts.  Look at the heatsink and fan on a Pentium
II, then look at the heatsink on a G3 (comparable processors; a G3 is
about as fast as the next speed grade up of PII, e.g. 266 G3 is about
equal to 300 PII).  Apple doesn't even have to put a fan on the
heatsink (all they need is airflow created by the power supply or
case fan), and it's a hell of a lot smaller than the PII heatsink.

>  I also experienced that GNOME's
>  screen saver pumps up the CPU to 100% when it is active. If the
>  PowerBook is cool before triggering the screen saver, it gets boiling
>  hot (with fan spinning) after 30mins. Why is that? I would expect it
>  to shut the display off and similar things, rather than deliberately
>  trying to fry my baby. Anyway, I am done with this topic.

If you try to use a graphically intensive screen saver to cool down
the machine, you're stupid.  Sorry, I can't help you with that.  But
if you do want to give the machine a rest when you're away, run pmud
instead (pmud = pmu daemon, search the mailing archives for info).

   Tim Seufert

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Rawhide SRPMS

[ian reinhart geiser]

I heard that KRASH was available as SRPM as a part
of the rawhide package.  Can anyone point me to
a good URL to find these SRPMS.

Thanks.
	-ian reinhart geiser

-------------------------------------------------
Ian Reinhart Geiser <geiseri@msoe.edu>
DEC Unix Systems Adimistrator and
	Computer Engineering Student
http://www.msoe.edu/~geiseri/finger.phtml


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Re: Pismo status

[Ethan Benson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1710 bytes --]

On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:01:25PM -0700, Timothy A. Seufert wrote:
[snip]

> >  Concerning computers,
> >  and Linux, it is running this OS that the situation improved, as far
> >  as Intel processors are concerned. I can say that the cpus, before
> >  the advent of the caged P-II, where so cold that I could safaly touch
> >  them. This was, again, using Linux. Using MS-Windows, instead, I
> >  could *not* do the similar thing for sure.
> 
> So you never did anything processor intensive under Linux, eh?

i think what he is refering to is when left idle an intel box running
linux will be MUCH cooler then it is when running MS-WinBloat.
apparently the linux kernel will issue a `hlt' instruction to the
processor when there is nothing to do, this puts the processor to
sleep or low power mode.  MS-Windows on the other hand always runs in
a very tight active loop keeping the processor running full tilt all
the time.  at least this is something i read somewhere feel free to
ignore/write off as total bullshi* ;-)

[snip]
> If you're talking about desktop machines where cooling systems are 
> much easier, you're nuts.  Look at the heatsink and fan on a Pentium 
> II, then look at the heatsink on a G3 (comparable processors; a G3 is 
> about as fast as the next speed grade up of PII, e.g. 266 G3 is about 
> equal to 300 PII).  Apple doesn't even have to put a fan on the 
> heatsink (all they need is airflow created by the power supply or 
> case fan), and it's a hell of a lot smaller than the PII heatsink.

then look at the heat sync on a G4 -- friggen monster about the size
of a video tape ;-)

[snip]

-- 
Ethan Benson
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 240 bytes --]

Re: Pismo status

[Timothy A. Seufert]

At 9:17 PM -0800 5/21/00, Ethan Benson wrote:

>then look at the heat sync on a G4 -- friggen monster about the size
>of a video tape ;-)

That particular heatsink was designed to allow the processor to
survive if the computer's main air circulation fan dies.  It doesn't
actually have to be that large for normal operation.  (G4 ZIF socket
upgrades for G3 Macs don't come with a huge heatsink as far as I
know, and they do fine.)

   Tim Seufert

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Re: Pismo status

[David A. Gatwood]

On Sun, 21 May 2000, Ethan Benson wrote:

> then look at the heat sync on a G4 -- friggen monster about the size
> of a video tape ;-)

Yes, but that is _all_ the cooling needed.  A PIII has a monster heat
sink, _and_ a cpu fan, _and_ a case fan, _and_....  ;-)


David

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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It seems secure at first glance.
Then you read your mail.


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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Fri, May 19, 2000 at 12:30:07PM +0000, Sergio Brandano wrote:
>
> >>  Sorry, I do not see your point.
> >>
> >>  My point is that if the CPU is piping hot, and you shutdown the
> >>  computer, no cooling is provided. This is wrong, as the fan has
> >>  nothing to do with the OS and it *must* spin until the temperature
> >>  reaches a safe level.
>
> >Well, the fan is there to remove the exess heat generated by a running CPU, if
> >you shut off the CPU, there will be no more exess heat generated, and the
> >existing heat will most assuredly be dissipated to less active cooling
> >mechanism. Since you cannot damage the CPU, or other pieces of the hardware,
> >this should cause no problem. And i think the G3 processor is not so hot
> >running, that it will be so much above the safe temperature state.
>
>  Ok Sven. You are convinced about your idea, but I am still skeptical.
>  In order to persuade me, I need a proof. Please perform this simple
>  experiment, then report the result. The experiment is as follows.
>  Have a nice and long trip with your car, then come back home, and
>  switch the engine off ensuring that the cooling fan is not spinning.
>  Let us know if your car starts again the next day.

well, i think the motor of your car is a lot heat producing and retaining than
the G3 cpu of your laptop, isn't it ?

>  If you prefer, you can perform the similar experiment with your brand new
>  PowerBook 500Mhz. Just run an intensive floating point application

If only i had one, ...

>  for a long time, then shutdown. Keep doing it every day, for a week
>  or so. Let us know it your jewel works fine at the end of it.

Ok, no problem it is your hardware, you do as you think is best, but still,
there were talks about powerbook case cooling without fan, so this could be
not so big a problem, unless you are using your laptop at noon in the sahara.

That said, i don't believe apple (as well as all the other laptop builders)
would release a laptop that would fry itself like that, ... they would be
facing lots of angry customer if it was so.

...

Another experiment you could try :

you use your laptop intensively as you said above, then before switching it
off, you put a thermometer on the cpu, or near it, and switch it off, you will
see how fast the temperature will drop ...

Anyway, lets stop this thread now, ...

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[David A. Gatwood]

On Sat, 20 May 2000, Sven LUTHER wrote:

> >  Ok Sven. You are convinced about your idea, but I am still skeptical.
> >  In order to persuade me, I need a proof. Please perform this simple
> >  experiment, then report the result. The experiment is as follows.
> >  Have a nice and long trip with your car, then come back home, and
> >  switch the engine off ensuring that the cooling fan is not spinning.
> >  Let us know if your car starts again the next day.

Um, there's a big difference there.  Your car is mechanical.  Computers
are not, other than the hard drive.  And excess heat probably does
contribute to stiction in hard drives, but that's about it.  When you stop
your car, oil drains out of the engine.  If the engine is still in an
expanded state from the heat, you're in deep you-know-what.  ;-)


> >  for a long time, then shutdown. Keep doing it every day, for a week
> >  or so. Let us know it your jewel works fine at the end of it.
>
> Ok, no problem it is your hardware, you do as you think is best, but
> still, there were talks about powerbook case cooling without fan, so
> this could be not so big a problem, unless you are using your laptop at
> noon in the sahara.

Yeah.  The powerbook case cools both through heat rising through gaps in
the keyboard and through the entire thing being basically one huge heat
sink.  :-)


> That said, i don't believe apple (as well as all the other laptop builders)
> would release a laptop that would fry itself

No, but they can fry eggs, or at least the wallstreets could.  :-)


David

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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It seems secure at first glance.
Then you read your mail.


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Re: Pismo status

[Worth]

On Thu, 18 May 2000, Sergio Brandano wrote:

>
>  There is one standard feature of automobiles that has not yet been
>  implemented for computers, namely if you switch off the computer the
>  cooling system should stay on until needed.

Actually it's old hat on mainframes, though that is mainly due to
numerous extremely hot chips with relatively small heat sinks in a
constrained plenum or manifold that depends upon high coolant flow.
And, on liquid cooled systems, to avoiding condensation problems.

>
>  (On my 101, I often hear the fan going on just when I need to shut
>  down. The fact is that when I want to shut down, I do not want to
>  wait for the fan, and I also put the screen down...

No need to wait for the fan, it's not the only cooling source, or
even the primary. The semiconductor junctions are already as hot as they
are going to get and are not producing any more heat. The surface of the
heat sink may have an upward transient at shutdown due to the loss of
airflow, but it's still cooler than those junctions or the bulk of the
heat sink.


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Re: Pismo status

[Sven LUTHER]

On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 10:15:24PM -0700, Timothy A. Seufert wrote:
> At 2:08 PM +0200 5/17/00, Sven LUTHER wrote:
> >On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:54:22PM +0200, Michael Schmitz wrote:
> >>  > Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
> >>  > > No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
> >>  > > The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
> >>  > > understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
> >>  >                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>  > Does this mean that I can damage the machine if I just run a high-load
> >>  > program?!?
> >>
> >>  I strongly doubt that. The PMU should handle this autonomously, regardless
> >>  of Linux support for the PMU.
> >
> >Also, i think the ppc cpu will halt itself when becoming too hot,
>
> No, it will not.
>
> The PowerPC 750 (G3) and 7400 (G4) can both fire off an interrupt
> when the on-die temperature sensor reading rises above a trigger
> value (or falls below a second trigger value).  This feature *could*
> be used by an operating system to slow down the CPU (through the

So this mean that the G3 and G4 cpus have both the equivalent of
speedstep/whatever that AMD & Intel are introducing as a big novelty ?

> instruction cache throttling feature) or halt it to prevent
> overheating.  However, there is no hardware feature which can halt
> the CPU without software control.

Are you sure about this ? did you already manage to burn out a ppc cpu like
you do when running a pentium without a fan ?

> >  and not let
> >itself burn. At elast it was so since the earlier 680x0 cpus.
>
> As far as I know none of the 680x0 CPUs even had an on-die
> temperature sensor, let alone a thermal shutdown feature.

I think to remember that the later 680X0 have, maybe not a temperature sensor,
but a way to halt themself before burning, ...

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

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Re: Pismo status

[Timothy A. Seufert]

At 4:33 PM +0200 5/18/00, Sven LUTHER wrote:
>On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 10:15:24PM -0700, Timothy A. Seufert wrote:
>>  The PowerPC 750 (G3) and 7400 (G4) can both fire off an interrupt
>>  when the on-die temperature sensor reading rises above a trigger
>>  value (or falls below a second trigger value).  This feature *could*
>>  be used by an operating system to slow down the CPU (through the
>
>So this mean that the G3 and G4 cpus have both the equivalent of
>speedstep/whatever that AMD & Intel are introducing as a big novelty ?

Sort of.  The method is quite different.  I think AMD and Intel are
actually changing the core clock rate of the processor in response to
system conditions.  The 750 and 7400 can't do that.  Instead, they
can restrict the speed at which instructions can be fetched from the
I-cache into the prefetch queue, which in turn results in lower power
use (and of course lower performance) due to the dynamic power
management features of the 750 and 7400, which save power by
completely halting the clock going to idle functional units.

>>  instruction cache throttling feature) or halt it to prevent
>>  overheating.  However, there is no hardware feature which can halt
>>  the CPU without software control.
>
>Are you sure about this ? did you already manage to burn out a ppc cpu like
>you do when running a pentium without a fan ?

There is no mention of such a thing in the PowerPC 750 manual.

   Tim Seufert

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Re: Pismo status

[Tim Wojtulewicz]

On Wed, 17 May 2000, Timothy A. Seufert wrote:

>
> No, it will not.
>
> The PowerPC 750 (G3) and 7400 (G4) can both fire off an interrupt
> when the on-die temperature sensor reading rises above a trigger
> value (or falls below a second trigger value).  This feature *could*
> be used by an operating system to slow down the CPU (through the
> instruction cache throttling feature) or halt it to prevent
> overheating.  However, there is no hardware feature which can halt
> the CPU without software control.
>

So in other words, without a little bit of help from the OS, the fan won't
come on when it the temperature hits this trigger value.  The temperature
would of course, continue to rise.

> The normal mode is that MacOS controls the fan through the PMU.  The
> PMU is connected to a thermistor located somewhere on the
> motherboard.  MacOS scans the value of this thermistor every so often
> and uses the fan to cool the machine if it's getting warm.  MacOS
> takes advantage of the speed control feature of the fan, so it won't
> crank the fan up to full speed if it doesn't have to.

Has any code been written for LinuxPPC that will let us monitor this
sensor?  I know there's a whole lm_sensors package for i386 and the like,
but is there something like this for us?

> If MacOS fails to turn the fan on for some reason, the PMU acts as a
> backup controller -- it is also monitoring the thermistor and will
> force the fan to turn on at full speed if a moderately high (but not
> yet unsafe) temperature is reached.
>
> If the PMU's fan override fails to stop the computer's temperature
> from rising, and the temperature begins to approach dangerous levels,
> the PMU will simply shut the machine down without asking.  (Most Macs
> since the Mac II have had a thermal shutdown feature like this,
> including the desktops.)
>
> So, at least for 101, the fan should still come on without operating
> system support, followed by an abrupt shutdown if the computer gets
> way too hot.

Yes, my fan does come on Linux.  But it takes a long time, and the case
gets very warm before it does.  I assume this means the PMU has finally
decided it's too hot and turned on the fan.  I know it's most likely not
Linux doing it.

> The current PowerBook G3, 102 (the one with FireWire, popularly and
> in this case correctly known as "Pismo"), does have a different PMU
> than 101.  Apple did a major upgrade to the PMU used with all Core99
> chipset machines, 102 included.  But it's fairly unlikely that Apple
> changed the fan control technique very much.

Yes, I had heard they upgraded the PMU, but I wasn't aware of how much
they had changed it.  Is it just a matter of knowing some extra bits we
can switch on and off in the PMU, or is it more than that?

Tim


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Re: Pismo status

[Timothy A. Seufert]

At 7:48 AM -0700 5/18/00, Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
>On Wed, 17 May 2000, Timothy A. Seufert wrote:
>
>>
>>  No, it will not.
>>
>>  The PowerPC 750 (G3) and 7400 (G4) can both fire off an interrupt
>>  when the on-die temperature sensor reading rises above a trigger
>>  value (or falls below a second trigger value).  This feature *could*
>>  be used by an operating system to slow down the CPU (through the
>>  instruction cache throttling feature) or halt it to prevent
>>  overheating.  However, there is no hardware feature which can halt
>>  the CPU without software control.
>>
>
>So in other words, without a little bit of help from the OS, the fan won't
>come on when it the temperature hits this trigger value.  The temperature
>would of course, continue to rise.

This die temperature sensor has nothing to do with the PowerBook's
fan.  It's built into all PPC 750 and 7400 CPUs.

Apple could use the die sensor to control the fan, but instead they
use a sensor on the motherboard of the PowerBook, as the fan is
really intended to ensure that the ambient temperature inside the
whole PowerBook doesn't get too hot.  This because there are actually
things which are much more sensitive to overheating than the CPU,
like the hard drive.

>Has any code been written for LinuxPPC that will let us monitor this
>sensor?  I know there's a whole lm_sensors package for i386 and the like,
>but is there something like this for us?

For some PowerBooks / PMU versions, I think so.  We will probably get
full support for things like this when Apple puts it into Darwin/OS X.

>Yes, I had heard they upgraded the PMU, but I wasn't aware of how much
>they had changed it.  Is it just a matter of knowing some extra bits we
>can switch on and off in the PMU, or is it more than that?

Probably more than that, but I don't know anything beyond the basic
fact that the PMU (both the hardware and its control program) got the
first major upgrade in years.

   Tim Seufert

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Re: Pismo status

[Tim Wojtulewicz]

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On Wed, 17 May 2000, Albrecht [iso-8859-1] Dreß wrote:

> Tim Wojtulewicz wrote:
> > No it's definitely supposed to have a fan.  It comes on in MacOS.
> > The problem is that the PMU is not fully supported yet, so it doesn't
> > understand that the processor is too hot.  I'm trying to find
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Does this mean that I can damage the machine if I just run a high-load
> program?!?

There won't be any damage to the machine.  The problem is that when the
processor reaches a certain temperature (one that is above limits) it puts
out a halt instruction.  This causes the machine to lock up.  The
protection against overheating is built into the processor (last time I
checked).  What should happen is that the OS should realize that the
processor is getting too warm, and turn on the fan before that limit is
reached.  Unfortunately, the temperature sensing code doesn't work so
well (or maybe something else), and the fan never comes on.

Don't worry about the machine, somewhere I heard the plastic case can
handle around 250 degrees F, so it's not in any danger of melting.

Tim


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Re: Pismo status

[Sergio Brandano]

> What should happen is that the OS should realize that the processor
> is getting too warm, and turn on the fan before that limit is
> reached.

 ... relying on the OS for cooling the CPU?
 What is the advantage of doing it?
 What happened to good-old control theory?

 Sergio

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Re: Pismo status

[Worth]

On Wed, 17 May 2000, Sergio Brandano wrote:

>
> > What should happen is that the OS should realize that the processor
> > is getting too warm, and turn on the fan before that limit is
> > reached.
>
>  ... relying on the OS for cooling the CPU?
>  What is the advantage of doing it?
>  What happened to good-old control theory?
>
>  Sergio
>
>
>

It's unlikely that the OS is involved in controlling the fan. To
depend upon the OS would be a very stupid design, as what would
happen if it goes into la-la land in a processor-intensive infinite
loop...? The PMU is a uproc with it's own firmware and should be
managing the fan, provided the fan isn't simply controlled
by a thermo-switch. However, there is no documentation to that
effect, but I haven't found any sign of fan control in the
Darwin drivers (which added some Core99 support in the last
update).

Others have complained of the fan being on all the time, my PB2K
500 seems to have its on quite often and it never gets anywhere near
as hot as it gets idling in MacOS (which can get hot enough to
cause sweaty palms when typing).

It is very important that you leave the screen up when the
system is on. Convection through the keyboard is a major part
of that case's cooling design, which is why MacOS does not give
you the option of not going into sleep when it is closed (Apple has
released a tech note on that). Also use hdparm to keep the disks
from running more than necessary, they generate a lot of heat,
particularly the DVD.

Beyond that, until Apple releases some definitive documentation --
yah, right -- you pays your money and you takes your chances...


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Re: Pismo status

[Claudio Nieder]

Hi,

> Yeah.  The powerbook case cools both through heat rising through gaps in
> the keyboard and through the entire thing being basically one huge heat

Which made me buy an external keyboard for stationary operation, as this
heat disturbs me quite a lot. I wonder why they don't move some of the
heat producers into the screen part of the laptop, e.g. CPU graphic chip and
memory. That would remove some heat from the part which I usualy touch,
be it the keyboard, or the bottom, when I don't have a table, and put
the PowerBook directly on my legs.

                                claudio
--
Claudio Nieder, Kanalweg 1, CH-8610 Uster ,'`.,'`.,'`.,'`.,'`.,'`.,'`
mailto:private@claudio.ch http://www.claudio.ch phone:+41 79 357 6743

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