Need IDE for embedded Linux project

Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[brian.auld]

Hello all,

I've just joined the mailing list. I apologize as I write this from a
windows machine. I just spent some frustrating minutes trying to tweek
Microsoft Outlook to go plain text 72 chars and I hope it worked. This
is the unfortunate side effect of the company I work for providing a
windows based dev environment for their engineers (nauseous).

Also I hope I'm not too off-topic, and if I am, I humbly ask for the
name of a different mailing list.

My group is just kicking off their first embedded linux project. The
bean counters finally bit the bullet and decided to move from VxWorks to
Linux on this project. Our hardware will be a custom board running the
PPC440GP. I am truly physched!!!

As a first step I am trying to determine what IDE makes sense given our
Department's infrastructure ... which is all windows (barf). I am aware of
the following options:

Option 1: All Native Linux.
Option 2: Native windows cross development environment.
Option 3: Vmware (linux guest on windows) with a Linux based IDE. Option 4:
Linux development server <--> PC-X server software
          (hummingbird) on windows development hosts.

Starting from a clean slate, option (1) would be my choice, but I don't
think it's practical given our installed base of Win2K workstations.

Regarding option (2), I get the impression that there are packages
available that do this, but I haven't got any real concrete hits when
searching on the web.

Regarding option (3), I just got the Vmware 30-day demo and am running RH7.2

as a Virtual Machine on my Win2K pukebox to evaluate.

Regarding option (4), it's another idea I had but haven't done much
investigation other than having thought about the possibility.

So my basic questions are as follows:

Question 1: Can anyone first confirm that option (2) is doable, and
            second recommend or point me to some of these options.

Question 2: If I go with (1) or (3), based on investigation so far, I
            would expect to use Denx's IDE that I've seen mentioned on
            this list's archives before. Some feedback about this choice
            or others as a Linux based IDE would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brian Auld
Firmware Engineer

Brian Auld
Embedded Software Engineer
ADIC
10 Brown Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 241-4845


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Dr. Craig Hollabaugh]

>Option 1: All Native Linux.



Brian,

If your company is really going to use Linux then push for the Linux development station. The time you personally save by not fooling around with vmware and windows cygwin cross tools will pay for the development computer many times over. You probably have an old 233 or 400 celeron box sitting around collecting dust. Compiling the kernel, which you'll rarely do, after you get things running, with take the most time on an old machine. Device drivers compile in seconds on these old machines.

You have a lot to learn: embedding Linux and cross compiling itself shouldn't be underestimated. Adding Win2K into the picture adds another complexity to screw things up.

Bean counters, you mentioned, will listen to this. Management will also listen if you stress that the windows cygwin cross will cost in terms of time and development complexity.

The question you need everyone to answer is cost and efficiency. Having your IT department or CVS requirements dictate type of development stations directly affects schedule and budget. Using Win2K, makes their life easier at your expense and potentially your job performance and product success.

I have this conversation during my seminars and consulting work. I stress the use of samba, samba mounting NT servers, Windows desktops, putty, etc but maintain that the compiling/debugging machine run Linux. You can mix the environments, be successful and effective.

Craig


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Jerry Van Baren]

My pick: #4

Don't cross compile under Windows, you are setting yourself up for immense
frustration and zero help.  On the email lists and newsgroups, I've heard
people ask several times whether it is possible to cross compile the linux
kernel under CygWin and a few said they actually were going to do it -- but
I have not heard any success stories.

As craig@hollabaugh.com said, use Samba -- your developers, who are
familiar with Windows and Windows based editors, will be a lot less
resistant to the move.

Check out VNC http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/ -- it is an open software
"PCanywhere" type program that works very well under linux and quite well
under Windows.  Exceed (X windows on Microsoft Windows) is a nice program
but pretty expensive.

The scheme is to have the files reside on the linux box.  Each developer
can use the tools of his choice to edit the files (Windows via Samba or
native linux).  Each developer would have a VNC connection or a simple
telnet session (warning: Windows telnet really sucks) to do his builds
using make.

gvb


At 12:10 PM 1/21/2003 -0500, brian.auld@adic.com wrote:

>Hello all,

[snip]

>As a first step I am trying to determine what IDE makes sense given our
>Department's infrastructure ... which is all windows (barf). I am aware of
>the following options:
>
>Option 1: All Native Linux.
>Option 2: Native windows cross development environment.
>Option 3: Vmware (linux guest on windows) with a Linux based IDE.
>Option 4: Linux development server <--> PC-X server software
>           (hummingbird) on windows development hosts.

[snip]

>Thanks,
>
>Brian Auld
>Firmware Engineer
>
>Brian Auld
>Embedded Software Engineer
>ADIC
>10 Brown Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850
>(607) 241-4845
>
>


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Rod Boyce]

I agree with what hs been said except for one thing use tight VNC I have
found it to be faster than the original VNC.  It is well supported and works
very well the web site is www.tightvnc.com it is still open source.


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Jerry Van Baren [mailto:gerald.vanbaren@smiths-aerospace.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 January 2003 10:08 a.m.
To:	linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject:	Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project



Check out VNC http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/ -- it is an open software
"PCanywhere" type program that works very well under linux and quite well
under Windows.  Exceed (X windows on Microsoft Windows) is a nice program
but pretty expensive.

gvb


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[brian.auld]

Everyone,

I am overwhelmed and grateful for all your input.

Keep it coming. I'm busy absorbing and following up on everything written so
far, but could very well have more questions.

Thanks

-- Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Boyce [mailto:rod_boyce@stratexnet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 4:18 PM
To: linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project


I agree with what hs been said except for one thing use tight VNC I have
found it to be faster than the original VNC.  It is well supported and works
very well the web site is www.tightvnc.com it is still open source.


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Jerry Van Baren [mailto:gerald.vanbaren@smiths-aerospace.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 January 2003 10:08 a.m.
To:	linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject:	Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project



Check out VNC http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/ -- it is an open software
"PCanywhere" type program that works very well under linux and quite well
under Windows.  Exceed (X windows on Microsoft Windows) is a nice program
but pretty expensive.

gvb


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Roland Dreier]

>>>>> "Rod" == Rod Boyce <rod_boyce@stratexnet.com> writes:

    Rod> I agree with what hs been said except for one thing use tight
    Rod> VNC I have found it to be faster than the original VNC.  It
    Rod> is well supported and works very well the web site is
    Rod> www.tightvnc.com it is still open source.

Tight VNC works well.  But you can also check out www.realvnc.com for
a new release of "official" VNC, which has various protocol
enhancements that make it comparable to tight vnc.

 - Roland

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Dr. Craig Hollabaugh]

At 04:07 PM 1/21/2003 -0500, Jerry Van Baren wrote:
>The scheme is to have the files reside on the linux box.  Each developer
>can use the tools of his choice to edit the files (Windows via Samba or
>native linux).  Each developer would have a VNC connection or a simple
>telnet session (warning: Windows telnet really sucks) to do his builds
>using make.

Don't bother with MS telnet, use the Windows putty program as ssh client. Works great!

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Kerl, John]

Data point:  About a year and a half ago I tried cross-compiling
on cygwin.  I found the performance 10-20x slower than native
Linux on the same hardware.  This approach will *cost* you money
in lost person-hours.

For what it's worth, I'm also at a company which is a Windows
shop.  One Linux PC and several custom boards running Linux
are the sole exceptions.

We took an old PC we had laying around (zero hardware cost)
and put Red Hat on it.  $50 for the CD and very easy install.
Also at home, I've installed Mandrake over the Internet; very
easy to install, and low cost, and high quality.  Sounds too good
to be true but it's not.

Over the last few years I've tried installing several different
distibutions at home, for the sake of comparison.  I don't want
to start a flame war about comparing distros (& if I just *did* start
one, I won't participate) but all of them will give you command-line
stuff -- where distros vary is in how well they auto-detect your
video card & set up X for you, or whether you have to manually diddle
with X config files (not my idea of fun).  Personally, I've found
Mandrake and Red Hat both very easy to install & fall into the
category of getting X config right for you (I won't name distros
in the other category), & this is probably what you want if you're
new to Linux.  Also Mandrake has a nice graphical partition editor;
Red Hat 8 probably does too.  That's part of the install that's
manual (fdisk) in other distros.

The PC doesn't have to be a hot rod.  I use a 300 MHz IBM 300PL
and have no performance complaints.  Also the only time I reboot
it is when the power goes off.

Sometimes I work sitting at the Linux PC; just as often, I telnet
or SSH in (Windows telnet, putty.exe which is superior) to the Linux
box.  I am a command-line guy & that's fine for me.  If you want X,
sit at the Linux PC, or use XVision or Hummingbird.  I've used both
at past jobs (as well as PC-Xware; don't now if they're still in
business) & I thought both were OK.

Samba would be great for data sharing.  Personally I've never
bothered to set it up, & just use periodic SCP's (part of SSH
package, available from the same place putty.exe is).

My boss sees me being productive on commodity hardware with no
license fees & *he* tells *me* about the benefits of using Linux
vs. Windows.  Can't beat that ...


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Van Baren [mailto:gerald.vanbaren@smiths-aerospace.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 2:08 PM
To: linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project



My pick: #4

Don't cross compile under Windows, you are setting yourself up for immense
frustration and zero help.  On the email lists and newsgroups, I've heard
people ask several times whether it is possible to cross compile the linux
kernel under CygWin and a few said they actually were going to do it -- but
I have not heard any success stories.

As craig@hollabaugh.com said, use Samba -- your developers, who are
familiar with Windows and Windows based editors, will be a lot less
resistant to the move.

Check out VNC http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/ -- it is an open software
"PCanywhere" type program that works very well under linux and quite well
under Windows.  Exceed (X windows on Microsoft Windows) is a nice program
but pretty expensive.

The scheme is to have the files reside on the linux box.  Each developer
can use the tools of his choice to edit the files (Windows via Samba or
native linux).  Each developer would have a VNC connection or a simple
telnet session (warning: Windows telnet really sucks) to do his builds
using make.

gvb


At 12:10 PM 1/21/2003 -0500, brian.auld@adic.com wrote:

>Hello all,

[snip]

>As a first step I am trying to determine what IDE makes sense given our
>Department's infrastructure ... which is all windows (barf). I am aware of
>the following options:
>
>Option 1: All Native Linux.
>Option 2: Native windows cross development environment.
>Option 3: Vmware (linux guest on windows) with a Linux based IDE.
>Option 4: Linux development server <--> PC-X server software
>           (hummingbird) on windows development hosts.

[snip]

>Thanks,
>
>Brian Auld
>Firmware Engineer
>
>Brian Auld
>Embedded Software Engineer
>ADIC
>10 Brown Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850
>(607) 241-4845
>
>


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[James Don]

Client at shh.com is amazing drag and drop features are beautiful for
windows ... I can drag files from home pc to windows with no x-windows ...

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Craig Hollabaugh [mailto:craig@hollabaugh.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 4:29 PM
To: Jerry Van Baren; linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project


At 04:07 PM 1/21/2003 -0500, Jerry Van Baren wrote:
>The scheme is to have the files reside on the linux box.  Each developer
>can use the tools of his choice to edit the files (Windows via Samba or
>native linux).  Each developer would have a VNC connection or a simple
>telnet session (warning: Windows telnet really sucks) to do his builds
>using make.

Don't bother with MS telnet, use the Windows putty program as ssh client.
Works great!


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Kerl, John]

An important issue to address (perhaps the most important,
if you're new to Linux) is system administration.  When you
need help, are you going to call your company's IT department?
Is your company willing to send you to training?  Are you going
to self-educate?  This may be your key point, if you're new to Linux.

This wasn't an issue here since I've been using Unix
for many years -- so I do the administration.  Maybe someone
else on the list can speak to first-Linux-box-in-a-Windows-shop
issues.  Unix is different -- no registry, more text-based config
files, etc.  There are plenty of admin guides at the local
bookstore; also, for what it's worth, I think Unix is easier to
administer & troubleshoot than Windows, simply because you
have more visiblity.  strace alone is a lifesaver ...

If all you want to do is cross-development, there shouldn't
be too much trouble.  But you -- or someone -- should know
how to add a user, partition and mount disks, set up NFS
exports, install sshd/telnetd, etc.  Sort of "admin lite".


-----Original Message-----
From: brian.auld@adic.com [mailto:brian.auld@adic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:10 PM
To: linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: Need IDE for embedded Linux project



Hello all,

I've just joined the mailing list. I apologize as I write this from a
windows machine. I just spent some frustrating minutes trying to tweek
Microsoft Outlook to go plain text 72 chars and I hope it worked. This
is the unfortunate side effect of the company I work for providing a
windows based dev environment for their engineers (nauseous).

Also I hope I'm not too off-topic, and if I am, I humbly ask for the
name of a different mailing list.

My group is just kicking off their first embedded linux project. The
bean counters finally bit the bullet and decided to move from VxWorks to
Linux on this project. Our hardware will be a custom board running the
PPC440GP. I am truly physched!!!

As a first step I am trying to determine what IDE makes sense given our
Department's infrastructure ... which is all windows (barf). I am aware of
the following options:

Option 1: All Native Linux.
Option 2: Native windows cross development environment.
Option 3: Vmware (linux guest on windows) with a Linux based IDE. Option 4:
Linux development server <--> PC-X server software
          (hummingbird) on windows development hosts.

Starting from a clean slate, option (1) would be my choice, but I don't
think it's practical given our installed base of Win2K workstations.

Regarding option (2), I get the impression that there are packages
available that do this, but I haven't got any real concrete hits when
searching on the web.

Regarding option (3), I just got the Vmware 30-day demo and am running RH7.2

as a Virtual Machine on my Win2K pukebox to evaluate.

Regarding option (4), it's another idea I had but haven't done much
investigation other than having thought about the possibility.

So my basic questions are as follows:

Question 1: Can anyone first confirm that option (2) is doable, and
            second recommend or point me to some of these options.

Question 2: If I go with (1) or (3), based on investigation so far, I
            would expect to use Denx's IDE that I've seen mentioned on
            this list's archives before. Some feedback about this choice
            or others as a Linux based IDE would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brian Auld
Firmware Engineer

Brian Auld
Embedded Software Engineer
ADIC
10 Brown Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 241-4845


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Rod Boyce]

There is much more administration to a development machine than a server.
You also have to know how to restart dead tasks.  Find out why you keep
running out of message queues.  Cope with funny sockets.  I'm a device
driver developer who also looks after the administration.  We were a window
shop in the beginning but many of us have Linux experience from home and
other jobs.  I would check around the developers and IT staff you might be
surprised the depth of Linux knowledge you actually have.

Also I cannot recommend enough the RedHat system administration courses.  I
went from a talented armature to a good sysadmin.  I also have the sysadmin
down to about 4 hours a week.  Cron is your friend you will end up using it
in unusual ways to solve little querks.

Regards,
Rod Boyce

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Kerl, John [mailto:John.Kerl@Avnet.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 January 2003 11:14 a.m.
To:	'brian.auld@adic.com'; 'linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org'
Subject:	RE: Need IDE for embedded Linux project


An important issue to address (perhaps the most important,
if you're new to Linux) is system administration.  When you
need help, are you going to call your company's IT department?
Is your company willing to send you to training?  Are you going
to self-educate?  This may be your key point, if you're new to Linux.

This wasn't an issue here since I've been using Unix
for many years -- so I do the administration.  Maybe someone
else on the list can speak to first-Linux-box-in-a-Windows-shop
issues.  Unix is different -- no registry, more text-based config
files, etc.  There are plenty of admin guides at the local
bookstore; also, for what it's worth, I think Unix is easier to
administer & troubleshoot than Windows, simply because you
have more visiblity.  strace alone is a lifesaver ...

If all you want to do is cross-development, there shouldn't
be too much trouble.  But you -- or someone -- should know
how to add a user, partition and mount disks, set up NFS
exports, install sshd/telnetd, etc.  Sort of "admin lite".


-----Original Message-----
From: brian.auld@adic.com [mailto:brian.auld@adic.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:10 PM
To: linuxppc-embedded@lists.linuxppc.org
Subject: Need IDE for embedded Linux project



Hello all,

I've just joined the mailing list. I apologize as I write this from a
windows machine. I just spent some frustrating minutes trying to tweek
Microsoft Outlook to go plain text 72 chars and I hope it worked. This
is the unfortunate side effect of the company I work for providing a
windows based dev environment for their engineers (nauseous).

Also I hope I'm not too off-topic, and if I am, I humbly ask for the
name of a different mailing list.

My group is just kicking off their first embedded linux project. The
bean counters finally bit the bullet and decided to move from VxWorks to
Linux on this project. Our hardware will be a custom board running the
PPC440GP. I am truly physched!!!

As a first step I am trying to determine what IDE makes sense given our
Department's infrastructure ... which is all windows (barf). I am aware of
the following options:

Option 1: All Native Linux.
Option 2: Native windows cross development environment.
Option 3: Vmware (linux guest on windows) with a Linux based IDE. Option 4:
Linux development server <--> PC-X server software
          (hummingbird) on windows development hosts.

Starting from a clean slate, option (1) would be my choice, but I don't
think it's practical given our installed base of Win2K workstations.

Regarding option (2), I get the impression that there are packages
available that do this, but I haven't got any real concrete hits when
searching on the web.

Regarding option (3), I just got the Vmware 30-day demo and am running RH7.2

as a Virtual Machine on my Win2K pukebox to evaluate.

Regarding option (4), it's another idea I had but haven't done much
investigation other than having thought about the possibility.

So my basic questions are as follows:

Question 1: Can anyone first confirm that option (2) is doable, and
            second recommend or point me to some of these options.

Question 2: If I go with (1) or (3), based on investigation so far, I
            would expect to use Denx's IDE that I've seen mentioned on
            this list's archives before. Some feedback about this choice
            or others as a Linux based IDE would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brian Auld
Firmware Engineer

Brian Auld
Embedded Software Engineer
ADIC
10 Brown Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 241-4845


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: Need IDE for embedded Linux project

[Kenneth Johansson]

On Tue, 2003-01-21 at 21:10, brian.auld@adic.com wrote:

> Option 4: Linux development server <--> PC-X server software
>           (hummingbird) on windows development hosts.

This is the one you want. But the windows machines would not be the
developent host but the x server. Since all the programs and files would
be on the one linux box that would be the development host.

You can test a setup like this with
http://www.cygwin.com/ + http://www.cygwin.com/xfree/ without spending
any money on software.

If you want to spend money I have previously used
http://www.ncd.com/products/software/pcxware/ and at least version 4
works quite good.

Also you want to configure this with XDM (XDMCP) this way it looks just
like everyone had their own linux computer.

--
Kenneth Johansson
Ericsson AB                       Tel: +46 8 404 71 83
Tellusborgsvägen  94              Fax: +46 8 404 72 72
126 25 Stockholm                  ken@switchboard.ericsson.se


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/