From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.ozlabs.org (lists.ozlabs.org [112.213.38.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0BD1C4167B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 02:21:55 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: lists.ozlabs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=eiH49h4f; dkim-atps=neutral Received: from boromir.ozlabs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by lists.ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4SLSLV238Yz3cjS for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 13:21:54 +1100 (AEDT) Authentication-Results: lists.ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=eiH49h4f; dkim-atps=neutral Authentication-Results: lists.ozlabs.org; spf=pass (sender SPF authorized) smtp.helo=out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (client-ip=66.111.4.29; helo=out5-smtp.messagingengine.com; envelope-from=fthain@linux-m68k.org; receiver=lists.ozlabs.org) X-Greylist: delayed 513 seconds by postgrey-1.37 at boromir; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 13:20:51 AEDT Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SLSKH2S4Qz3cVR for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2023 13:20:50 +1100 (AEDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10545C00C2; Wed, 1 Nov 2023 22:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 01 Nov 2023 22:12:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1698891131; x=1698977531; bh=HHqX/8hxM76B+ FqUHCdvEUxPTggyvwjZCDtqqtb1Dmk=; b=eiH49h4fK8FgGVQFFnNNGTJhWiB43 xyANQlcmzwv9NVB25UXh3hJmBAWwYRaQunD9fsARH6wraWUnpENLcJm3o4y56dU9 rsTUelmLqFthTDfYc30m3iwwjlrBnDKmwQNUaEH/vgoZWAlcGecKUUS/D3PfxDfG tDC28EMRknqawOWeZ7iWoI7iWwKUqeOZsk14yQj24gmOTuUum8+j755RsgcZU06R NzHadTFQsN+IzfHQyH3hnieua9xsknprKhL3o9sY9YAzFYqUQR4gGJ8Kin8B/4Ms ht3Ud56x9Jtb9FiZ24Gour2jcmxmBWLQ+3Nq/pTqvK2fxNnHYcOlcDP+w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedruddthedggeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvfevufgjkfhfgggtsehttdertddttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefhihhnnhcu vfhhrghinhcuoehfthhhrghinheslhhinhhugidqmheikehkrdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrg htthgvrhhnpeelueehleehkefgueevtdevteejkefhffekfeffffdtgfejveekgeefvdeu heeuleenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hfthhhrghinheslhhinhhugidqmheikehkrdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i58a146ae:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 1 Nov 2023 22:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2023 13:13:49 +1100 (AEDT) From: Finn Thain To: Arnd Bergmann Subject: Re: Does anyone use Appletalk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <973278b8-c9e5-b1cf-2e08-2ff8fd8e9aa4@linux-m68k.org> References: <594446aaf91b282ff3cbd95953576ffd29f38dab.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <5e3e52a48ba9cc0109a98cf4c5371c3f80c4b4cc.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <79b7f88e3dd6536fe69c63ed3b4cc1f2c551ce8d.camel@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Linux on PowerPC Developers Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Dan Williams , Netdev , linux-m68k , Geert Uytterhoeven , John Paul Adrian Glaubitz , Jakub Kicinski , linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org Errors-To: linuxppc-dev-bounces+linuxppc-dev=archiver.kernel.org@lists.ozlabs.org Sender: "Linuxppc-dev" On Wed, 1 Nov 2023, Arnd Bergmann wrote: > > If we had not removed all localtalk support already, ipddp might have > been used to bridge between a pre-ethernet mac running macip and an IP > based AFP server (netatalk or time machine). Without localtalk support, > that is not all that interesting of course. > That line of reasoning misunderstands the value of the localtalk code (and conveniently neglects the actual cost of keeping it in-tree). The existing zilog driver works on all 68k and powerpc Macs with built-in serial ports. If we were to complete that driver by adding the missing localtalk support, it would create new opportunities for creative users/developers who already run Linux on those systems. Those users/developers would surely derive value from that functionality in ways we cannot anticipate, as happens over and over again in the (retrocomputing) community. So the value of the missing zilog localtalk functionality would be proportional to the number of Linux systems out there with the necessary serial hardware. It's value is not a function of the potential business opportunities for your sponsors, despite the prevailing incentives. It was the potential value of the missing code for localtalk (Zilog SCC) and Apple Sound Chip that caused me to place that work near the top of my to-do list. But that was several years ago. Unfortunately, with bug fixing and recapping, I still can't find time to write the necessary code. So I can't object to the removal of the localtalk code. But I do object to the underhand manner in which it is done.