Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Gerhard Pircher]

I'm trying to debug a kernel lockup that occurs on my machine with all kernel
versions >2.6.16. I don't have a clue what the root cause of this lockup is,
thus I'm thinking about using a hardware debugger. Can anybody recommend a
reasonably cheap hardware debugger that works with G4 CPUs and can interact
with GDB/DDD?

regards,

Gerhard
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Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Grant Likely]

On 11/13/07, Gerhard Pircher <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net> wrote:
> I'm trying to debug a kernel lockup that occurs on my machine with all kernel
> versions >2.6.16. I don't have a clue what the root cause of this lockup is,
> thus I'm thinking about using a hardware debugger. Can anybody recommend a
> reasonably cheap hardware debugger that works with G4 CPUs and can interact
> with GDB/DDD?

Abatron BDI-2000.

-- 
Grant Likely, B.Sc., P.Eng.
Secret Lab Technologies Ltd.
grant.likely@secretlab.ca
(403) 399-0195

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Grant Likely]

On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> On 11/13/07, Gerhard Pircher <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net> wrote:
> > I'm trying to debug a kernel lockup that occurs on my machine with all kernel
> > versions >2.6.16. I don't have a clue what the root cause of this lockup is,
> > thus I'm thinking about using a hardware debugger. Can anybody recommend a
> > reasonably cheap hardware debugger that works with G4 CPUs and can interact
> > with GDB/DDD?
>
> Abatron BDI-2000.

Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).  You might try
looking at the Macraigor Wiggler
(http://www.macraigor.com/wiggler.htm), but it has limited powerpc
support.

Cheers,
g.

-- 
Grant Likely, B.Sc., P.Eng.
Secret Lab Technologies Ltd.
grant.likely@secretlab.ca
(403) 399-0195

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> On 11/13/07, Gerhard Pircher <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net> wrote:
> > I'm trying to debug a kernel lockup that occurs on my machine with all kernel
> > versions >2.6.16. I don't have a clue what the root cause of this lockup is,
> > thus I'm thinking about using a hardware debugger. Can anybody recommend a
> > reasonably cheap hardware debugger that works with G4 CPUs and can interact
> > with GDB/DDD?
>
> Abatron BDI-2000.

Does anyone have the detailed doc needed to implement the software for
a PPC hardware debugger? Dominic, the author of OpenOCD, has said he
will take a look at adding PPC support if someone can supply him with
the right doc.

I've requested it from my Freescale rep. They sent me all of the
hardware info but none of the software info. They can't seem to figure
out what I'm asking for.

-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> > On 11/13/07, Gerhard Pircher <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net> wrote:
> > > I'm trying to debug a kernel lockup that occurs on my machine with all kernel
> > > versions >2.6.16. I don't have a clue what the root cause of this lockup is,
> > > thus I'm thinking about using a hardware debugger. Can anybody recommend a
> > > reasonably cheap hardware debugger that works with G4 CPUs and can interact
> > > with GDB/DDD?
> >
> > Abatron BDI-2000.
>
> Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).  You might try
> looking at the Macraigor Wiggler
> (http://www.macraigor.com/wiggler.htm), but it has limited powerpc
> support.

Here are the choices:
http://www.macraigor.com/cpus.htm


>
> Cheers,
> g.
>
> --
> Grant Likely, B.Sc., P.Eng.
> Secret Lab Technologies Ltd.
> grant.likely@secretlab.ca
> (403) 399-0195
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> Linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org
> https://ozlabs.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
>


-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Gerhard Pircher]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:10:29 -0500
> Von: "Jon Smirl" <jonsmirl@gmail.com>
> An: "Grant Likely" <grant.likely@secretlab.ca>
> CC: "Gerhard Pircher" <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net>, linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org
> Betreff: Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

> On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> > On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> > > Abatron BDI-2000.
> >
> > Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).  You might try
> > looking at the Macraigor Wiggler
> > (http://www.macraigor.com/wiggler.htm), but it has limited powerpc
> > support.
> 
> Here are the choices:
> http://www.macraigor.com/cpus.htm
Looks like the Abatron BDI-2000 is the cheapest hardware debugger that
supports 74xx G4 CPUs. :-(

Thanks!

Gerhard
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Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Dan Malek]

On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Grant Likely wrote:

>> Abatron BDI-2000.
>
> Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).

If you place any value on your time or development
schedule, it's a bargain.  Just plug it in, and it works.
Choose any of your favorite debugger front ends,
from none with just a telnet interface, to remote gdb,
ddd, or several Eclipse options.  Several choices
of host OS.  It will pay you back in development and
debugging time savings over and over.

	-- Dan

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Olof Johansson]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 03:23:29PM -0800, Dan Malek wrote:
> 
> On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Grant Likely wrote:
> 
> >> Abatron BDI-2000.
> >
> > Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).
> 
> If you place any value on your time or development
> schedule, it's a bargain.

That only applies for cases where time means money, i.e. professional
work. Spending three thousand dollars to debug a board that you spent
a few hundred dollars buying just for a hobby is pretty crazy.


-Olof

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/13/07, Olof Johansson <olof@lixom.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 03:23:29PM -0800, Dan Malek wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Grant Likely wrote:
> >
> > >> Abatron BDI-2000.
> > >
> > > Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).
> >
> > If you place any value on your time or development
> > schedule, it's a bargain.
>
> That only applies for cases where time means money, i.e. professional
> work. Spending three thousand dollars to debug a board that you spent
> a few hundred dollars buying just for a hobby is pretty crazy.

That's why Dominic wants to get OpenOCD running on the PowerPC. All we
need is the programming documentation for controlling the CPU via the
debug hardware.

Obviously this documentation exist, all of the commercial vendors had
to have it to develop their debuggers. Maybe it is already out there
and we just don't know where to look.

-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 23:21 +0100, Gerhard Pircher wrote:
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > Datum: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:10:29 -0500
> > Von: "Jon Smirl" <jonsmirl@gmail.com>
> > An: "Grant Likely" <grant.likely@secretlab.ca>
> > CC: "Gerhard Pircher" <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net>, linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org
> > Betreff: Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs
> 
> > On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> > > On 11/13/07, Grant Likely <grant.likely@secretlab.ca> wrote:
> > > > Abatron BDI-2000.
> > >
> > > Oops, but that's not all that cheap.  ($2750USD).  You might try
> > > looking at the Macraigor Wiggler
> > > (http://www.macraigor.com/wiggler.htm), but it has limited powerpc
> > > support.
> > 
> > Here are the choices:
> > http://www.macraigor.com/cpus.htm
> Looks like the Abatron BDI-2000 is the cheapest hardware debugger that
> supports 74xx G4 CPUs. :-(

Do you have the appropriate connector for it on the motherboard as
well ? If not, then you are out of luck...

Ben.

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

> That's why Dominic wants to get OpenOCD running on the PowerPC. All we
> need is the programming documentation for controlling the CPU via the
> debug hardware.

Note that this is basically different for every CPU around.

> Obviously this documentation exist, all of the commercial vendors had
> to have it to develop their debuggers. Maybe it is already out there
> and we just don't know where to look.

Ben.

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/13/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
>
> > That's why Dominic wants to get OpenOCD running on the PowerPC. All we
> > need is the programming documentation for controlling the CPU via the
> > debug hardware.
>
> Note that this is basically different for every CPU around.

I'd like to get it for the MPC5200 because of the project I am working
on, an open source audio device. It would be nice if there was a cheap
hardware debugger available for hackers to use on it. Maybe one of the
Freescale developers will see this and send me the right docs.

Is it radically different? Dominic has been able to support every ARM
7/9 chip he can get his hands on without too much trouble once the
core support was written. I don't think he has ARM 11 working yet.

>
> > Obviously this documentation exist, all of the commercial vendors had
> > to have it to develop their debuggers. Maybe it is already out there
> > and we just don't know where to look.
>
> Ben.
>
>
>


-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Gerhard Pircher]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:17:09 +1100
> Von: Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org>
> An: Gerhard Pircher <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net>
> CC: Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com>, grant.likely@secretlab.ca, linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org
> Betreff: Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

> 
> On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 23:21 +0100, Gerhard Pircher wrote:
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > > Datum: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:10:29 -0500
> > > Von: "Jon Smirl" <jonsmirl@gmail.com>
> > > An: "Grant Likely" <grant.likely@secretlab.ca>
> > > CC: "Gerhard Pircher" <gerhard_pircher@gmx.net>,
> linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org
> > > Betreff: Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs
> > > 
> > > Here are the choices:
> > > http://www.macraigor.com/cpus.htm
> > Looks like the Abatron BDI-2000 is the cheapest hardware debugger that
> > supports 74xx G4 CPUs. :-(
> 
> Do you have the appropriate connector for it on the motherboard as
> well ? If not, then you are out of luck...
> 
> Ben.
Yes, the connector is on the CPU module.

Gerhard
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Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jerry Van Baren]

Jon Smirl wrote:
> On 11/13/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
>>> That's why Dominic wants to get OpenOCD running on the PowerPC. All we
>>> need is the programming documentation for controlling the CPU via the
>>> debug hardware.
>> Note that this is basically different for every CPU around.
> 
> I'd like to get it for the MPC5200 because of the project I am working
> on, an open source audio device. It would be nice if there was a cheap
> hardware debugger available for hackers to use on it. Maybe one of the
> Freescale developers will see this and send me the right docs.
> 
> Is it radically different? Dominic has been able to support every ARM
> 7/9 chip he can get his hands on without too much trouble once the
> core support was written. I don't think he has ARM 11 working yet.
> 
>>> Obviously this documentation exist, all of the commercial vendors had
>>> to have it to develop their debuggers. Maybe it is already out there
>>> and we just don't know where to look.
>> Ben.

DISCLAIMER: Extrapolating grossly from almost no knowledge!

My understanding is that the Freescale PPC debugger interface is based 
on the JTAG interface using a proprietary command set.  Basically, if 
you do their magic BDM (JTAG extension) command, you get into an 
internal scan chain that allows you to read/write the processor 
internals (registers).

The problems are many...
* The documentation is only available under NDA, a problem for open 
source debuggers.
* The scan chain is different on every processor, and may be different 
on different revisions of the same processor.
* If you mess up with JTAG, you will probably burn up the CPU.  Very 
literally.  I've seen it done.  Twice.  (Thankfully not my screwup, and 
it wasn't a PPC so it deserved to die. ;-)  The internal scan chain is 
probably safer, but YMMV.

gvb

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/14/07, Jerry Van Baren <gvb.linuxppc.dev@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jon Smirl wrote:
> > On 11/13/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
> >>> That's why Dominic wants to get OpenOCD running on the PowerPC. All we
> >>> need is the programming documentation for controlling the CPU via the
> >>> debug hardware.
> >> Note that this is basically different for every CPU around.
> >
> > I'd like to get it for the MPC5200 because of the project I am working
> > on, an open source audio device. It would be nice if there was a cheap
> > hardware debugger available for hackers to use on it. Maybe one of the
> > Freescale developers will see this and send me the right docs.
> >
> > Is it radically different? Dominic has been able to support every ARM
> > 7/9 chip he can get his hands on without too much trouble once the
> > core support was written. I don't think he has ARM 11 working yet.
> >
> >>> Obviously this documentation exist, all of the commercial vendors had
> >>> to have it to develop their debuggers. Maybe it is already out there
> >>> and we just don't know where to look.
> >> Ben.
>
> DISCLAIMER: Extrapolating grossly from almost no knowledge!
>
> My understanding is that the Freescale PPC debugger interface is based
> on the JTAG interface using a proprietary command set.  Basically, if
> you do their magic BDM (JTAG extension) command, you get into an
> internal scan chain that allows you to read/write the processor
> internals (registers).
>
> The problems are many...
> * The documentation is only available under NDA, a problem for open
> source debuggers.

This is what we need. I would like it specifically for the mpc5200.
But we want to use it in OpenOCD so NDA won't work.

> * The scan chain is different on every processor, and may be different
> on different revisions of the same processor.

Hopefully the doc will cover this.

> * If you mess up with JTAG, you will probably burn up the CPU.  Very
> literally.  I've seen it done.  Twice.  (Thankfully not my screwup, and
> it wasn't a PPC so it deserved to die. ;-)  The internal scan chain is
> probably safer, but YMMV.

Dominic is way experienced implementing JTAG for ARM CPUs. He has done
several dozen interfaces. ARM doesn't have any problems releasing
their debugging info.

I've also lined up a mpc5200 development board vendor who wants a
cheap mpc5200 JTAG too and is willing to supply him with target
hardware.

JTAG hardware would be something similar to this:
http://www.amontec.com/jtagkey-tiny.shtml
So $30-40 for hardware with free OpenOCD software and you have JTAG
for the mpc5200.
This puts it in the range of classroom use.

The few embedded classes I've been around lately are being taught on
ARM hardware because it is so cheap. Development boards and the JTAG
can be had for under $100.

For example check out this store, it carries hundreds of ARM products
and almost no PowerPC ones.
http://microcontrollershop.com


-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Wolfgang Denk]

In message <9e4733910711141834n2bfb1742v5637c56e27e26f5a@mail.gmail.com> you wrote:
>
> > * The documentation is only available under NDA, a problem for open
> > source debuggers.
> 
> This is what we need. I would like it specifically for the mpc5200.
> But we want to use it in OpenOCD so NDA won't work.

It doesn't work. Been  there  a  logn  time  ago.  It's  and  endless
fingerpointing.  Freescale  (by  then:  Motorola)  says  they  cannot
release any information because of their contracts with IBM, and vice
versa.

> Dominic is way experienced implementing JTAG for ARM CPUs. He has done
> several dozen interfaces. ARM doesn't have any problems releasing
> their debugging info.

JTAG is simple, but you don't get the necessery information for the
COP (= debug) interface.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

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HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd@denx.de
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Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Sun, 2007-11-18 at 01:47 +0100, Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> In message <9e4733910711141834n2bfb1742v5637c56e27e26f5a@mail.gmail.com> you wrote:
> >
> > > * The documentation is only available under NDA, a problem for open
> > > source debuggers.
> > 
> > This is what we need. I would like it specifically for the mpc5200.
> > But we want to use it in OpenOCD so NDA won't work.
> 
> It doesn't work. Been  there  a  logn  time  ago.  It's  and  endless
> fingerpointing.  Freescale  (by  then:  Motorola)  says  they  cannot
> release any information because of their contracts with IBM, and vice
> versa.

It seems like AMCC does provide the necessary infos for 4xx processors
though. Jon, do you think what they provide is enough to use an open
source debugger ?

Ben.

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/22/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 2007-11-18 at 01:47 +0100, Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> > In message <9e4733910711141834n2bfb1742v5637c56e27e26f5a@mail.gmail.com> you wrote:
> > >
> > > > * The documentation is only available under NDA, a problem for open
> > > > source debuggers.
> > >
> > > This is what we need. I would like it specifically for the mpc5200.
> > > But we want to use it in OpenOCD so NDA won't work.
> >
> > It doesn't work. Been  there  a  logn  time  ago.  It's  and  endless
> > fingerpointing.  Freescale  (by  then:  Motorola)  says  they  cannot
> > release any information because of their contracts with IBM, and vice
> > versa.
>
> It seems like AMCC does provide the necessary infos for 4xx processors
> though. Jon, do you think what they provide is enough to use an open
> source debugger ?

Do you have a link to the info?

>
> Ben.
>
>
>


-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 19:00 -0500, Jon Smirl wrote:
> > It seems like AMCC does provide the necessary infos for 4xx
> processors
> > though. Jon, do you think what they provide is enough to use an open
> > source debugger ?
> 
> Do you have a link to the info?

Not at hand, but easy to find from AMCC main product page, you can then
go to the various eval board download pages, and some of the d/l are
infos for JTAG debugger manufacturers.

Ben.

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/22/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 19:00 -0500, Jon Smirl wrote:
> > > It seems like AMCC does provide the necessary infos for 4xx
> > processors
> > > though. Jon, do you think what they provide is enough to use an open
> > > source debugger ?
> >
> > Do you have a link to the info?
>
> Not at hand, but easy to find from AMCC main product page, you can then
> go to the various eval board download pages, and some of the d/l are
> infos for JTAG debugger manufacturers.

Dominick Rath wrote OpenOCD (open source JTAG) as his senior thesis in
college, he graduated this spring and has a job now. I've sent mail to
him but he may be a lost cause.
Thesis: http://developer.berlios.de/docman/display_doc.php?docid=1367&group_id=4148

Low cost dev tools are an important part of the CPU selection process.
We went through four ARM CPUs before deciding on the MPC5200. We were
able to get ARM eval boards and JTAGs for under $500 for each of the
eval CPUs. We used the low cost evals to screen the CPUs, we didn't
want spend $5-10K until we are 90% sure we are going to use the CPU. I
returned one $5K eval board, it was a pain and it took over six months
to get a refund.

We have also learned the hard way about "port and forget" several of
the CPUs we picked had Linux ports, but the ports were five years old.
When we pushed the vendors for more recent kernels the typical answer
was, send us $50,000 and we'll see what we can do. We're not going to
send in $50K for a CPU we haven't decided to use, that answer simply
resulted in us changing CPUs. An example of this is the NXP LPC3180,
$9 with a FPU, but only a 2.6.5 kernel.

I've also only seen ARM CPUs being used in schools. You can get ARM
eval boards and a JTAG for under $100 on some ARM CPUs. AFAIK there is
no low cost PowerPC option suitable for classroom use.

-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Jon Smirl]

On 11/23/07, Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/22/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 19:00 -0500, Jon Smirl wrote:
> > > > It seems like AMCC does provide the necessary infos for 4xx
> > > processors
> > > > though. Jon, do you think what they provide is enough to use an open
> > > > source debugger ?
> > >
> > > Do you have a link to the info?
> >
> > Not at hand, but easy to find from AMCC main product page, you can then
> > go to the various eval board download pages, and some of the d/l are
> > infos for JTAG debugger manufacturers.

Grant, I heard back from the Amontec (a JTAG company) developers. They
are interested in doing an open JTAG for the Xilinx Microblaze.  Is
that the FPGA you've been working with?

-- 
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com

Re: Hardware debuggers for PPC74xx G4 CPUs

[Grant Likely]

On 11/23/07, Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/23/07, Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/22/07, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2007-11-22 at 19:00 -0500, Jon Smirl wrote:
> > > > > It seems like AMCC does provide the necessary infos for 4xx
> > > > processors
> > > > > though. Jon, do you think what they provide is enough to use an open
> > > > > source debugger ?
> > > >
> > > > Do you have a link to the info?
> > >
> > > Not at hand, but easy to find from AMCC main product page, you can then
> > > go to the various eval board download pages, and some of the d/l are
> > > infos for JTAG debugger manufacturers.
>
> Grant, I heard back from the Amontec (a JTAG company) developers. They
> are interested in doing an open JTAG for the Xilinx Microblaze.  Is
> that the FPGA you've been working with?

Yes, the FPGA I'm using can host a Microblaze design; except my work
has focused on the ppc405 hard IP core instead of the microblaze core.

Regardless, this sounds interesting.  Can you get JTAG debug info out of Xilinx?

Cheers,
g.
.
>
> --
> Jon Smirl
> jonsmirl@gmail.com
>


-- 
Grant Likely, B.Sc., P.Eng.
Secret Lab Technologies Ltd.
grant.likely@secretlab.ca
(403) 399-0195