IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

[Mark Morrill]

Hi

http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/powerpc/linux/


I've been looking for a means to build a Linux appliance and this IBM url
seems to have the answer - except for a real product I can play with.

Anybody know where I could get my hands on one of these boards?

Mark


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Re: IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

[Geir Frode Raanes]

On Mon, 29 May 2000, Mark Morrill wrote:

> http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/powerpc/linux/
>
> I've been looking for a means to build a Linux appliance and this IBM url
> seems to have the answer - except for a real product I can play with.
>
> Anybody know where I could get my hands on one of these boards?

Which one - the IBM 405GP Evaluation Kit [hint] or the
PC-in-disguise; PowerPC Open Platform reference design?

To have the latter I suppose you could just as well lay
your hands on one of the demised PReP/CHRP machines.
Small wonder Apple Just Said No.

--
  ******************************************************
  Never ever underestimate the power of human stupidity.
  -Robert Anson Heinlein

		GeirFRS@invalid.and.so.forth
  ******************************************************


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Re: IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

[Mark Morrill]

on 5/30/00 01:51, Geir Frode Raanes at geirfrs@invalid.ed.ntnu.no wrote:
> On Mon, 29 May 2000, Mark Morrill wrote:
>> http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/powerpc/linux/
>> [snip]
>
> Which one - the IBM 405GP Evaluation Kit [hint] or the
> PC-in-disguise; PowerPC Open Platform reference design?
>
> To have the latter I suppose you could just as well lay
> your hands on one of the demised PReP/CHRP machines.
> Small wonder Apple Just Said No.
> [snip]

hmmm.

Ok, do I call IBM to get my hands on the IBM 405GP Evaluation Kit?  If so
where do I start?

I was thinking that the PC-in-disguise was a good option for me...  But you
don't seem to hold it in great favor...

What I want is a very basic PowerPC computer (ethernet, harddrive, power,
ram, etc) that'll run Linux that I can prototype a system on and attach a
couple of PCI cards to.  And when I get my system running, I can take the
box to a manufacturer for production :)

Mark

PS.  Thanks to all who have emailed me information - it has given me a lot
to think about!


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Re: IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

[Geir Frode Raanes]

On Tue, 30 May 2000, Mark Morrill wrote:

>
> on 5/30/00 01:51, Geir Frode Raanes at geirfrs@invalid.ed.ntnu.no wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 May 2000, Mark Morrill wrote:
> >> http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/powerpc/linux/
> >> [snip]
> >
> > Which one - the IBM 405GP Evaluation Kit [hint] or the
> > PC-in-disguise; PowerPC Open Platform reference design?
>
> Ok, do I call IBM to get my hands on the IBM 405GP Evaluation Kit?

Yes.
And IBM will probabely point you to their local electronic
components distributor, which in turn will sell it to you.

> If so where do I start?

Whith what? The Kit or with Embedded-Linux?
The Kit is selfcontained and works out of the box.
It will come with some sort of ROM monitor SW which will set
up most SW configurable options on the board - something like
the PC BIOS, only this thing is actually useful for something.

> I was thinking that the PC-in-disguise was a good option for me...
> But you don't seem to hold it in great favor...

I am a HW engineer. I did not join up on this list to bash the
PC architecture, though that is all I have been able to do so far.
(Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in...)

I could give you a register-by-register declaration as to why
the (legacy) PC is no good. But that would take quite awhile.

> What I want is a very basic PowerPC computer (ethernet, harddrive, power,
> ram, etc) that'll run Linux that I can prototype a system on and attach a
> couple of PCI cards to.  And when I get my system running, I can take the
> box to a manufacturer for production :)

There are many defenitions of "embedded." One of my favorites is
the negation form "not a workstation." You do not speak of an
embedded system. Most embedded systems do not have expansion
slots even if they do use the PCI bus. Some systems, like those
targeted for telecom do have slots, but these slots are of
industrial quality like VME or CompactPCI.

When we say embedded we mean the kind of things that control your
toaster - and thus can fit into a toaster. We are not speaking of
full desktop systems squeezed into a mini-ATX box. Please adjust
your consept of scale. Harddrives have movable parts inside and
are as such not popular in the embedded world.

As to your idea of what it takes to to ready a system for
production... Could we take that in private mail exchange?

--
  ******************************************************
  Never ever underestimate the power of human stupidity.
  -Robert Anson Heinlein

		GeirFRS@invalid.and.so.forth
  ******************************************************


** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/

Re: IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

[Mark Morrill]

on 5/31/00 02:21, Geir Frode Raanes at geirfrs@invalid.ed.ntnu.no wrote:

> There are many defenitions of "embedded." One of my favorites is
> the negation form "not a workstation." You do not speak of an
> embedded system. Most embedded systems do not have expansion
> slots even if they do use the PCI bus. Some systems, like those
> targeted for telecom do have slots, but these slots are of
> industrial quality like VME or CompactPCI.
>
> When we say embedded we mean the kind of things that control your
> toaster - and thus can fit into a toaster. We are not speaking of
> full desktop systems squeezed into a mini-ATX box. Please adjust
> your consept of scale. Harddrives have movable parts inside and
> are as such not popular in the embedded world.

I know I'm not really looking for an embedded system.  I suppose I really
should be looking in the Intel world - there it seems so easy to build a
box.  However, I'm also looking for something that won't double as a toaster
by virtue of the heat the chip puts out.  Ultimately, I want my system to
run in a smallish box, say, 3" x 12" x 10".  And I don't want a big noisy
fan.

I brought my questions to the embedded list in the hope that I could get
leads to a kit that would allow me to prototype a system with off the shelf
components.  I've got a bit of the software research already happening on a
Lombard running LinuxPPC.  But I don't think I could take the PowerBook to a
manufacturer and say, "Make one of these, please"!  :)

> As to your idea of what it takes to to ready a system for
> production... Could we take that in private mail exchange?

That would be great!  I've got lots of software experience but mostly on the
Mac.  So you can imagine how hardware illiterate I am!  :)

Mark


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Re: IBM PowerPC - Linux Connections?

[Geir Frode Raanes]

On Wed, 31 May 2000, Mark Morrill wrote:

> on 5/31/00 02:21, Geir Frode Raanes at geirfrs@invalid.ed.ntnu.no wrote:
>
> I know I'm not really looking for an embedded system.  I suppose I really
> should be looking in the Intel world - there it seems so easy to build a
> box.

Seem is the word. That is before things fall apart on you.
Before curious behaviour sets in, before closed source device
drivers drive you nuts and - argh - you have to deal with MS.
And so forth. But I do not want to talk about that.
Let me suggest possible solutions for you instead.

> I brought my questions to the embedded list in the hope that I could get
> leads to a kit that would allow me to prototype a system with off the shelf
> components.  I've got a bit of the software research already happening on a
> Lombard running LinuxPPC.  But I don't think I could take the PowerBook to a
> manufacturer and say, "Make one of these, please"!  :)

But you could. In fact (more on this below) I believe that is
your best option, depending on the cost sensitivity of your
market segment. You buy machines OEM from apple, throw in the
PCI cards you bought OEM from others and sell this as a complete
package. Has been done before and will be done again. But beware
of the "golden screwdriver" reputation.

Then again you can buy embedded building blocks. For instance
PPMC boards from Motorola. PMC is just PCI on fancy high-density
connectors. This you could plug into a passive PCI backplane and
in this backplane plug the PCI boards of your choise. But this
requires an HW engineer to do as PCI is a transmission line and not
just a set of wires. Or you could hire a HW engineer to integrate
the IBM 405GP onto the backplane - AFAIK it does have system slot
capabilities. But be prepared to dig deep into your wallet.
Embedded systems are expensive to design but cheap to manufacute.

BTW, Edge connectors are loved in the US because of their low
cost and hated in Europe because of their low quaility. This is
something you have to take into consideration depending on
the intended (mechanical) use of your product. This is why you
will not find any embedded building blocks with plain vanilla
PCI connectors on it. But if the "embedded" stamp is of no
consern then Motorola Computer Group market ATX conforming
motherboards with PowerPC on it. This is a PC-in-disguise
just like the "Open" architecture of IBM. Be prepared to
have fun with 8259 interrupt controllers and the like.

If only Motorola could take that ATX board and throw out the
ISA bridge and everything that goes with it including IDE, leaving
only PCI slots, then even I would be interested. PowerPC does not
have legacy software dependance on legacy HW so why cludge things
up with this PC heritage? [Spesification: No 8259, no 8237,
no 8047, no 8051, no 8250, no MC146818, no nothing with a
ISA IO register associated with it. Especially not 8259.]

> > As to your idea of what it takes to to ready a system for
> > production... Could we take that in private mail exchange?
>
> That would be great!  I've got lots of software experience but mostly on the
> Mac.  So you can imagine how hardware illiterate I am!  :)

I could elaborate if you drop me a mail asking for it.

But the short form is that sending a piece of hardware out on the
market is not like distributing shareware. You can not write off
all liabilities in the form of a break-this-seal-and-agree-to-
this-no-responsibility-license. First of all you must comply to
all government required standards, including the mother of
all standards - Electro Magnetic Compliance, EMC. (If you
intend to market it in Europe that is. But it is just a question
of time before these rules or similar apply to US too.)

The moment you put that CE mark (and I am not talking about
Chinese Exports) on your box, your ass is in there with it.
If it does kill your customer's cat, you are going to loose
that ass.

Or better still, your product disturbs your customers pacemaker.
Only then you can comfort yourself with the fact that the
manufacturer of the pacemaker will loose more than just his ass
since they should not only comply to EMC but in addition comply
to true paranoia medical equipment standards.

Bottom line - you seem to be far out of touch with the reality of
what we are dealing with here. I guess a MBA could elaborate even
more on the foolhardiness of your crusade from a market point of
view. But then again - if every starter-up knew what he or her
were getting into there would be no starter-ups. Anything
is doable, it just takes time. Lots of time. And money.

--
  ******************************************************
  Never ever underestimate the power of human stupidity.
  -Robert Anson Heinlein

		GeirFRS@invalid.and.so.forth
  ******************************************************

** Sent via the linuxppc-embedded mail list. See http://lists.linuxppc.org/