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[79.224.253.90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-45870532a4csm44564315e9.7.2025.07.25.00.38.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Jul 2025 00:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0ad414a1-9a57-4050-a7b6-fdea08aebbd1@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 09:38:14 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 2/5] mm/mseal: update madvise() logic To: Lorenzo Stoakes Cc: Andrew Morton , "Liam R . Howlett" , Vlastimil Babka , Jann Horn , Pedro Falcato , linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Jeff Xu References: <4f66d89a-631a-43eb-b4f9-c9a0b44caaae@redhat.com> <692f9624-e440-4cf2-8202-861c679ddb73@lucifer.local> From: David Hildenbrand Content-Language: en-US Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZgEEwEIAEICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQW AgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEEG9nKrXNcTDpGDfzKTd4Q9wD/g1oFAmgsLPQFCRvGjuMACgkQTd4Q 9wD/g1o0bxAAqYC7gTyGj5rZwvy1VesF6YoQncH0yI79lvXUYOX+Nngko4v4dTlOQvrd/vhb 02e9FtpA1CxgwdgIPFKIuXvdSyXAp0xXuIuRPQYbgNriQFkaBlHe9mSf8O09J3SCVa/5ezKM OLW/OONSV/Fr2VI1wxAYj3/Rb+U6rpzqIQ3Uh/5Rjmla6pTl7Z9/o1zKlVOX1SxVGSrlXhqt kwdbjdj/csSzoAbUF/duDuhyEl11/xStm/lBMzVuf3ZhV5SSgLAflLBo4l6mR5RolpPv5wad GpYS/hm7HsmEA0PBAPNb5DvZQ7vNaX23FlgylSXyv72UVsObHsu6pT4sfoxvJ5nJxvzGi69U s1uryvlAfS6E+D5ULrV35taTwSpcBAh0/RqRbV0mTc57vvAoXofBDcs3Z30IReFS34QSpjvl Hxbe7itHGuuhEVM1qmq2U72ezOQ7MzADbwCtn+yGeISQqeFn9QMAZVAkXsc9Wp0SW/WQKb76 FkSRalBZcc2vXM0VqhFVzTb6iNqYXqVKyuPKwhBunhTt6XnIfhpRgqveCPNIasSX05VQR6/a OBHZX3seTikp7A1z9iZIsdtJxB88dGkpeMj6qJ5RLzUsPUVPodEcz1B5aTEbYK6428H8MeLq NFPwmknOlDzQNC6RND8Ez7YEhzqvw7263MojcmmPcLelYbfOwU0EVcufkQEQAOfX3n0g0fZz Bgm/S2zF/kxQKCEKP8ID+Vz8sy2GpDvveBq4H2Y34XWsT1zLJdvqPI4af4ZSMxuerWjXbVWb T6d4odQIG0fKx4F8NccDqbgHeZRNajXeeJ3R7gAzvWvQNLz4piHrO/B4tf8svmRBL0ZB5P5A 2uhdwLU3NZuK22zpNn4is87BPWF8HhY0L5fafgDMOqnf4guJVJPYNPhUFzXUbPqOKOkL8ojk CXxkOFHAbjstSK5Ca3fKquY3rdX3DNo+EL7FvAiw1mUtS+5GeYE+RMnDCsVFm/C7kY8c2d0G NWkB9pJM5+mnIoFNxy7YBcldYATVeOHoY4LyaUWNnAvFYWp08dHWfZo9WCiJMuTfgtH9tc75 7QanMVdPt6fDK8UUXIBLQ2TWr/sQKE9xtFuEmoQGlE1l6bGaDnnMLcYu+Asp3kDT0w4zYGsx 5r6XQVRH4+5N6eHZiaeYtFOujp5n+pjBaQK7wUUjDilPQ5QMzIuCL4YjVoylWiBNknvQWBXS lQCWmavOT9sttGQXdPCC5ynI+1ymZC1ORZKANLnRAb0NH/UCzcsstw2TAkFnMEbo9Zu9w7Kv AxBQXWeXhJI9XQssfrf4Gusdqx8nPEpfOqCtbbwJMATbHyqLt7/oz/5deGuwxgb65pWIzufa N7eop7uh+6bezi+rugUI+w6DABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3 AP+DWgUCaCwtJQUJG8aPFAAKCRBN3hD3AP+DWlDnD/4k2TW+HyOOOePVm23F5HOhNNd7nNv3 Vq2cLcW1DteHUdxMO0X+zqrKDHI5hgnE/E2QH9jyV8mB8l/ndElobciaJcbl1cM43vVzPIWn 01vW62oxUNtEvzLLxGLPTrnMxWdZgxr7ACCWKUnMGE2E8eca0cT2pnIJoQRz242xqe/nYxBB /BAK+dsxHIfcQzl88G83oaO7vb7s/cWMYRKOg+WIgp0MJ8DO2IU5JmUtyJB+V3YzzM4cMic3 bNn8nHjTWw/9+QQ5vg3TXHZ5XMu9mtfw2La3bHJ6AybL0DvEkdGxk6YHqJVEukciLMWDWqQQ RtbBhqcprgUxipNvdn9KwNpGciM+hNtM9kf9gt0fjv79l/FiSw6KbCPX9b636GzgNy0Ev2UV m00EtcpRXXMlEpbP4V947ufWVK2Mz7RFUfU4+ETDd1scMQDHzrXItryHLZWhopPI4Z+ps0rB CQHfSpl+wG4XbJJu1D8/Ww3FsO42TMFrNr2/cmqwuUZ0a0uxrpkNYrsGjkEu7a+9MheyTzcm vyU2knz5/stkTN2LKz5REqOe24oRnypjpAfaoxRYXs+F8wml519InWlwCra49IUSxD1hXPxO WBe5lqcozu9LpNDH/brVSzHCSb7vjNGvvSVESDuoiHK8gNlf0v+epy5WYd7CGAgODPvDShGN g3eXuA== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: <692f9624-e440-4cf2-8202-861c679ddb73@lucifer.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> >>> The justification for this change is to account for the case where: >>> >>> 1. A MAP_PRIVATE R/W file-backed mapping is established. >>> 2. The mapping is written to, which backs it with anonymous memory. >>> 3. The mapping is mprotect()'d read-only. >>> 4. The mapping is mseal()'d. >> >> Thinking about this a bit (should have realized this implication earlier) > > Well none of us did... > >> ... assuming we have: >> >> 1. A MAP_PRIVATE R/O file-backed mapping. >> 2. The mapping is mseal()'d. >> >> We only really have anon folios in there with things like (a) uprobe (b) >> debugger access (c) similarly weird FOLL_FORCE stuff. >> >> Now, most executables/libraries are mapped that way. If someone would rely >> on MADV_DONTNEED to zap pages in there (to free up memory), that would get >> rejected. > > Right, yes. > > This is odd behaviour to me. But I guess this is what Jeff meant by 'detecting > this' in android. It's rather weird usage of MADV_DONTNEED, but maybe, for some R/O buffers ... > > The documentation is really not specific enough, we need to fix that. It's > effectively stating any anon mappings are sealed, which is just not true with > existing semantics. > > However I see: > > Memory sealing can automatically be applied by the runtime loader to > seal .text and .rodata pages and applications can additionally seal > security critical data at runtime. > > So yes, we're going to break MADV_DONTNEED of this mappings. > > BUT. > > Would you really want to MADV_DONTNEED away uprobes etc.?? That seems... very > strange and broken behaviour no? > > Note that, also, mappings of read-only files have VM_SHARED stripped. So they > become read-only (With ~VM_MAYWRITE). > > To be clear this is where the mode of the file is read-only, not that the > mapping is read-only alone. > > So with this change, we'd disallow discard of this. > > It'd be pretty odd to mseal() a read-only file-backed mapping and then try to > discard, but maybe somebody would weirdly rely upon this? > > It's inconsistent, as a person MAP_SHARED mapping a file that is read/write but > mapped read-only (or r/w of course), can discard fine eve if sealed, but if the > file happens to be read-only can't. > > But we could add a VM_MAYWRITE check also. > > OK maybe I"m softening on the anon_vma thing see below. > > So we could combine these checks to avoid these issues. > > >> >> Does something like that rely on MADV_DONTNEED working? Good question. > > Kees/Jeff? Can you check if android relies on this? > >> >> Checking for anon_vma in addition, ad mentioned in the other thread, would >> be a "cheap" check to rule out that there are currently anon vmas in there. >> >> Well, not 100% reliable, because MADV_DONTNEED can race with page faults ... > > But hang on, it's read-only so we shouldn't get racing faults... right? You mean, ones that populate anon folios. Well, there is long-term pinning that can break COW and other weird stuff like FOLL_FORCE. Most of the latter probably holds the mmap lock in write mode. Probably. > > Hmm maybe I'll soften on this anon_vma idea then. Maybe it is a 'cheap fix' to > rule out the _usual_ cases. Yeah, something to evaluate. -- Cheers, David / dhildenb