[2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Adrian Bunk]

<--  snip  -->

<wbsd-devel@list.drzeus.cx>:
Connected to 213.115.189.212 but sender was rejected.
Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
pass the
+Sender Policy Framework
I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.

<drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx>:
Connected to 213.115.189.212 but sender was rejected.
Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
pass the
+Sender Policy Framework
I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.

<--  snip  -->



IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
belong into MAINTAINERS.


Signed-off-by: Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de>

--- linux-2.6.10-mm2-full/MAINTAINERS.old	2005-01-10 19:20:32.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.10-mm2-full/MAINTAINERS	2005-01-10 19:26:24.000000000 +0100
@@ -2539,8 +2539,6 @@
 
 W83L51xD SD/MMC CARD INTERFACE DRIVER
 P:	Pierre Ossman
-M:	drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx
-L:	wbsd-devel@list.drzeus.cx
 W:	http://projects.drzeus.cx/wbsd
 S:	Maintained
 

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Russell King]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:43:07PM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> <drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx>:
> Connected to 213.115.189.212 but sender was rejected.
> Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
> pass the
> +Sender Policy Framework
> I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
> 
> IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
> belong into MAINTAINERS.

I assume as you removed Pierre Ossman's email address as well that
you apply the same argument to peoples email addresses?

(Not that I'm endorsing SPF in any way - discussions about SPF are
*off topic* here.)

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:  2.6 PCMCIA      - http://pcmcia.arm.linux.org.uk/
                 2.6 Serial core

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:08:10PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:43:07PM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > <drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx>:
> > Connected to 213.115.189.212 but sender was rejected.
> > Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
> > pass the
> > +Sender Policy Framework
> > I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
> > 
> > IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
> > belong into MAINTAINERS.
> 
> I assume as you removed Pierre Ossman's email address as well that
> you apply the same argument to peoples email addresses?

Yes.

( BTW: It wasn't obvious to me that this s a personal address and not
       a mailing list. )

> (Not that I'm endorsing SPF in any way - discussions about SPF are
> *off topic* here.)

Agreed. I'm simply considering it important that all addresses in 
maintainers are reachable for everyone.

> Russell King

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Russell King]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 08:21:20PM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:08:10PM +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > I assume as you removed Pierre Ossman's email address as well that
> > you apply the same argument to peoples email addresses?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ( BTW: It wasn't obvious to me that this s a personal address and not
>        a mailing list. )
> 
> > (Not that I'm endorsing SPF in any way - discussions about SPF are
> > *off topic* here.)
> 
> Agreed. I'm simply considering it important that all addresses in 
> maintainers are reachable for everyone.

That is a flawed reason.  There is no way to guarantee that all
addresses listed there are reachable for *everyone*, so I guess
that'll mean that you'll be removing all email addresses in that
file.

You might alternatively consider trying to resolve whatever issue
there is - maybe Pierre doesn't realise what he's (or his ISP) is
doing.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:  2.6 PCMCIA      - http://pcmcia.arm.linux.org.uk/
                 2.6 Serial core

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Alan Cox]

On Llu, 2005-01-10 at 19:21, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Agreed. I'm simply considering it important that all addresses in 
> maintainers are reachable for everyone.

Thats impractical in the modern world of spam. You'd have to remove
verizon (block loads of users), NTL (block loads of users), and so it
goes on. Then there are sites filter between countries - where do you
draw the line ?

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[David Woodhouse]

On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 19:08 +0000, Russell King wrote:
> > IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension 
> > don't belong into MAINTAINERS.
> 
> I assume as you removed Pierre Ossman's email address as well that
> you apply the same argument to peoples email addresses?

That would seem an appropriate thing to do. SPF is not compatible with
SMTP email as we know it today; it would requires the whole world to
upgrade to make its flawed assumptions come true. We should not list
email addresses in MAINTAINERS which are afflicted by it.

For what it's worth, I recently changed all instances of one of my
personal email addresses in the kernel, for precisely the same reason --
it's SPF-afflicted, and hence has no business being present in a form
which cause people to expect that it's a normal, compatible email
address.

-- 
dwmw2

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Alan Cox]

On Llu, 2005-01-10 at 18:43, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
> belong into MAINTAINERS.

Find out why someone is publishing records saying your mail isnt valid
instead of moaning here. If they are using SPF and you are not using any
strange extensions its fine. You or your provider appears to be
advertising that stusta.de doesn't use the mail relay you are using.

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Pierre Ossman]

Alan Cox wrote:
> On Llu, 2005-01-10 at 18:43, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> 
>>IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
>>belong into MAINTAINERS.
> 
> 
> Find out why someone is publishing records saying your mail isnt valid
> instead of moaning here. If they are using SPF and you are not using any
> strange extensions its fine. You or your provider appears to be
> advertising that stusta.de doesn't use the mail relay you are using.
> 

I think I've fixed the problem now. It wasn't that there were published 
records for stusta.de, the problem was that the mail server couldn't 
resolve your domain. For some reason everything from the DNS I'm using 
to your DNS gets dropped. The mail server takes the paranoid route and 
assumes the worst when it cannot contact dns servers (that's why you got 
a 4xx, not a 5xx). I've now changed DNS which will hopefully solve the 
issue.

As for dropping the mailing list out of MAINTAINERS then I'd prefer you 
didn't (of course). But I will not remove the filters on the servers 
since they remove a lot of spam. If that means it cannot be in 
MAINTAINERS, then so be it.

Rgds
Pierre

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Russell King]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 10:21:01PM +0100, Pierre Ossman wrote:
> Alan Cox wrote:
> > On Llu, 2005-01-10 at 18:43, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > 
> >>IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
> >>belong into MAINTAINERS.
> > 
> > 
> > Find out why someone is publishing records saying your mail isnt valid
> > instead of moaning here. If they are using SPF and you are not using any
> > strange extensions its fine. You or your provider appears to be
> > advertising that stusta.de doesn't use the mail relay you are using.
> > 
> 
> I think I've fixed the problem now. It wasn't that there were published 
> records for stusta.de, the problem was that the mail server couldn't 
> resolve your domain. For some reason everything from the DNS I'm using 
> to your DNS gets dropped. The mail server takes the paranoid route and 
> assumes the worst when it cannot contact dns servers (that's why you got 
> a 4xx, not a 5xx). I've now changed DNS which will hopefully solve the 
> issue.
> 
> As for dropping the mailing list out of MAINTAINERS then I'd prefer you 
> didn't (of course). But I will not remove the filters on the servers 
> since they remove a lot of spam. If that means it cannot be in 
> MAINTAINERS, then so be it.

You may wish to check the source port which your DNS servers are using
to perform lookups.  I've had a situation recently where someone was
unable to send me mail.  Upon investigation, I found that my name
servers couldn't resolve his domain, but plain 'dig' on the same box
could.

I've come across ISPs who think they should block DNS requests from
certain _source_ ports to "improve" their security, which may explain
what you're seeing.

If this is the case, I suggest Adrian finds a better ISP.

-- 
Russell King
 Linux kernel    2.6 ARM Linux   - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
 maintainer of:  2.6 PCMCIA      - http://pcmcia.arm.linux.org.uk/
                 2.6 Serial core

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 10:21:01PM +0100, Pierre Ossman wrote:
> 
> I think I've fixed the problem now. It wasn't that there were published 
> records for stusta.de, the problem was that the mail server couldn't 
> resolve your domain. For some reason everything from the DNS I'm using 
> to your DNS gets dropped. The mail server takes the paranoid route and 
> assumes the worst when it cannot contact dns servers (that's why you got 
> a 4xx, not a 5xx). I've now changed DNS which will hopefully solve the 
> issue.

Which DNS server du you call "your DNS"?

> As for dropping the mailing list out of MAINTAINERS then I'd prefer you 
> didn't (of course). But I will not remove the filters on the servers 
> since they remove a lot of spam. If that means it cannot be in 
> MAINTAINERS, then so be it.

I thought this was a wanted rejecting of my emails, and it's not so easy 
to contact you if you drop my emails...

Simply consider my patch being void.

> Rgds
> Pierre

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Pierre Ossman]

Adrian Bunk wrote:

>
>Which DNS server du you call "your DNS"?
>  
>
130.236.230.9

>  
>
>>As for dropping the mailing list out of MAINTAINERS then I'd prefer you 
>>didn't (of course). But I will not remove the filters on the servers 
>>since they remove a lot of spam. If that means it cannot be in 
>>MAINTAINERS, then so be it.
>>    
>>
>
>I thought this was a wanted rejecting of my emails, and it's not so easy 
>to contact you if you drop my emails...
>  
>
Unfortunatly I cannot turn off the filters for certain addresses. 
Otherwise I could turn it off for the postmaster address. Afraid I don't 
have a good solution to this problem.

Rgds
Pierre

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 11:22:20PM +0100, Pierre Ossman wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
> 
> >
> >Which DNS server du you call "your DNS"?
> > 
> 130.236.230.9
>...

That's a Swedish server that is hardly related to the email server
I have to use.

Thinking about it:
mailout.stusta.mhn.de has two IP addresses.
Do you try some lookups of it's 10.150.127.10 address???

> Rgds
> Pierre

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Ondrej Zary]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Thinking about it:
> mailout.stusta.mhn.de has two IP addresses.
> Do you try some lookups of it's 10.150.127.10 address???

That's a private class A IP address which should never appear on the 
internet. Looks like DNS configuration is broken somewhere.

-- 
Ondrej Zary

RE: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[David Schwartz]

> On Llu, 2005-01-10 at 18:43, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't
> > belong into MAINTAINERS.
>
> Find out why someone is publishing records saying your mail isnt valid
> instead of moaning here. If they are using SPF and you are not using any
> strange extensions its fine. You or your provider appears to be
> advertising that stusta.de doesn't use the mail relay you are using.

	From reading this thread, it's not clear to me which of two possible
situations we are in:

	1) The mail server is rejecting perfectly valid email based upon it
requiring SPF or some similar problem with that mail server.

	2) The mail server is rejecting email because SPF is misconfigured on the
other end.

	I agree that an email address should not be in maintainers if it rejects
email simply because a domain does not use SPF or correctly configures SPF
such that the email should not be rejected (for example, by correctly saying
that it cannot list all the possible sources of email from that domain).
However, it is perfectly valid for it to drop emails based upon SPF that
specifically says that the email is invalid, non-standard extension or not.

	If you choose to use the non-standard extension and specifically use it to
communicate that certain emails are invalid, you have no right to complain
that the emails you claimed were invalid are treated as such by others.

	DS

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Pierre Ossman]

David Schwartz wrote:
> 
> 	From reading this thread, it's not clear to me which of two possible
> situations we are in:
> 
> 	1) The mail server is rejecting perfectly valid email based upon it
> requiring SPF or some similar problem with that mail server.
> 
> 	2) The mail server is rejecting email because SPF is misconfigured on the
> other end.
> 


Since it's a bit off-topic for LKML it's being discussed off-list. The 
problem was with the DNS servers. Since the mail server could not 
determine SPF status for the domain it returned a temporary error 
(hoping that the DNS problem would get resolved).

So the situation is more towards 1). The mail is valid, but there is a 
DNS (or firewall) misconfigured somewhere.

Rgds
Pierre

Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Stephen Pollei]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1621 bytes --]

On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 10:43, Adrian Bunk wrote:

Perhaps a better approach might be to try and resolve why your emails
got rejected. Are there invalid spf records involved? Is something at
list.drzeus.cx misconfigured ?

> <wbsd-devel@list.drzeus.cx>:
> Connected to 213.115.189.212 but sender was rejected.
> Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
> pass the
> +Sender Policy Framework
> I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
> 
> <drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx>:
> Connected to 213.115.189.212 but sender was rejected.
> Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
> pass the
> +Sender Policy Framework
> I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
> 
> <--  snip  -->
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO lists rejecting emails based on some non-standard extension don't 
> belong into MAINTAINERS.
> 
> 
> Signed-off-by: Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de>
> 
> --- linux-2.6.10-mm2-full/MAINTAINERS.old	2005-01-10 19:20:32.000000000 +0100
> +++ linux-2.6.10-mm2-full/MAINTAINERS	2005-01-10 19:26:24.000000000 +0100
> @@ -2539,8 +2539,6 @@
>  
>  W83L51xD SD/MMC CARD INTERFACE DRIVER
>  P:	Pierre Ossman
> -M:	drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx
> -L:	wbsd-devel@list.drzeus.cx
>  W:	http://projects.drzeus.cx/wbsd
>  S:	Maintained


-- 
http://dmoz.org/profiles/pollei.html
http://sourceforge.net/users/stephen_pollei/
http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2455954990164098214
http://stephen_pollei.home.comcast.net/
GPG Key fingerprint = EF6F 1486 EC27 B5E7 E6E1  3C01 910F 6BB5 4A7D 9677

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Re: [2.6 patch] remove SPF-using wbsd lists from MAINTAINERS

[Valdis.Kletnieks]

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On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:43:07 +0100, Adrian Bunk said:

> Remote host said: 417 SPF error mailout.stusta.mhn.de: Address does not 
> pass the
> +Sender Policy Framework

I'd recommend sitting on this patch for a week.  If they haven't noticed by
then that they're not accepting mail from anyplace on the Internet that
doesn't advertise an SPF record (which is most of the net, still), then
we don't need to be pointing MAINTAINERS there.

>  W83L51xD SD/MMC CARD INTERFACE DRIVER
>  P:	Pierre Ossman
> -M:	drzeus-wbsd@drzeus.cx
> -L:	wbsd-devel@list.drzeus.cx
>  W:	http://projects.drzeus.cx/wbsd
>  S:	Maintained

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