public inbox for linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org>
To: Jon Smirl <jonsmirl@gmail.com>
Cc: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Dave Airlie <airlied@gmail.com>, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] Small PCI core patch
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:36:12 +1100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1132626973.26560.114.camel@gaston> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <9e4733910511211820x3539213arfe20f3939a375b51@mail.gmail.com>


> If the choice instead is to embrace current graphics hardware, then
> given the current state of the market, I don't see any other
> alternative than using the proprietary drivers and OpenGL stacks. The
> path in that direction is something like Xgl.  We can wish for a
> non-proprietary choice on the current hardware, but the reality is
> that we are not going to get it.

As long as they don't need to put binary junk in the kernel, they can
keep the binary junk in userland, where it belongs. That is at least
acceptable and legal, even if it's not a great situation.

The problem is they load these multi-megabytes blocs that want to hook
into SMM BIOS interrupts, ACPI, VM, etc... all over the place and do all
sort of junk in your kernel. Say goodbye to any kind of stability and
maintainability of a kernel loaded with that crap.

And pretty much all of the crap in there doesn't have any good reason to
be closed source. That's all just plumbing. A lot of that could even be
shared between video drivers (they could use the DRI interface for
example, and if it's not enough for them, extend it). That is not where
the actual IP is.

But the real reasons are elsewhere anyway. They don't wnat to opensource
because they don't want to open the gazillion security holes in their
stuff (afaik, the binary drivers make absolutely no verification of the
command streams passed from userland, you can make the card do whatever
you want from any user context, including arbitrary DMA to/from system
memory), the various comments & workarounds for HW bugs that aren't
supposed to exist and might make some customers want to throw the cards
back at them, the disgusting pile of smelly windows-originated library
they link in and wrap all over the place to make linux look like NT,
etc...

And we do _not_ want that in the kernel. There is no point in having
linux on the desktop if it's at the cost of it being the same crap that
windows is.

Ben.



  reply	other threads:[~2005-11-22  2:38 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 78+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-11-21 22:53 [RFC] Small PCI core patch Greg KH
2005-11-21 23:01 ` Greg KH
2005-11-21 23:35   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22  0:47     ` Dave Airlie
2005-11-22  1:34       ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22  2:20         ` Jon Smirl
2005-11-22  2:36           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt [this message]
2005-11-22  3:01             ` Jon Smirl
2005-11-22  7:41           ` Rob Landley
2005-11-22  8:44             ` Dave Airlie
2005-11-22  2:27         ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22  3:23           ` Jon Smirl
2005-11-22  3:44             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22  4:11             ` Neil Brown
2005-11-22  8:07               ` Denis Vlasenko
2005-11-22 14:30                 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 16:33                   ` Rob Landley
2005-11-22 16:38                     ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 10:58               ` Florian Weimer
2005-11-22 19:28               ` Adrian Bunk
2005-11-23 15:46                 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-11-24  2:11                   ` Lee Revell
2005-11-22 15:46             ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 15:51               ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 16:14                 ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 16:25                   ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 16:40                     ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 16:56                       ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 17:11                         ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 17:37                         ` Brian Gerst
2005-11-22 17:38                           ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 19:39                           ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-23 10:51                         ` Rogério Brito
2005-11-23 14:29                           ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22 18:38                       ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22 19:47                         ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 16:26                   ` Diego Calleja
2005-11-22 16:35                     ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 19:49                       ` Diego Calleja
2005-11-22 20:08                         ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 20:15                           ` Lee Revell
2005-11-22 20:43                           ` Diego Calleja
2005-11-22 22:00                             ` Avi Kivity
2005-11-22 22:42                       ` Jan Knutar
2005-11-22 14:07           ` Marc Koschewski
2005-11-22 22:53             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22 23:06               ` Marc Koschewski
2005-11-22 23:20                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22 14:25           ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22 14:26             ` today's graphics (was Re: [RFC] Small PCI core patch) Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 18:58               ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22 18:41                 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22  1:21     ` [RFC] Small PCI core patch Greg KH
2005-11-22  1:28     ` Chris Wedgwood
2005-11-22  1:42       ` Greg KH
2005-11-22  5:50     ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-11-22 14:36       ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-22 16:54     ` Jon Smirl
2005-11-22 20:17       ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22 21:13         ` Brian Gerst
2005-11-22 23:26           ` Alan Cox
2005-11-22 22:59       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22  6:57   ` Rob Landley
2005-11-22 18:26   ` Matthieu CASTET
2005-11-22 19:05     ` Greg KH
2005-11-22 20:15     ` Alan Cox
2005-11-23  3:26       ` Andrew James Wade
2005-11-21 23:28 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-21 23:30 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2005-11-22 17:50 ` Greg KH
2005-11-22 22:31   ` Harald Dunkel
2005-11-22 23:40     ` Alan Cox
2005-11-23  6:06       ` Harald Dunkel
2005-11-23  6:26         ` Dave Jones
2005-11-23 11:11           ` Alan Cox
     [not found] <5bsXq-5uy-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <5bsXq-5uy-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <5btqF-66n-41@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <5bzmg-66b-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <5bHtG-228-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
2005-11-25  4:06         ` Robert Hancock
2005-11-25  6:34           ` Jeff Garzik
2005-11-25 13:54           ` Alan Cox

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=1132626973.26560.114.camel@gaston \
    --to=benh@kernel.crashing.org \
    --cc=airlied@gmail.com \
    --cc=alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk \
    --cc=greg@kroah.com \
    --cc=jonsmirl@gmail.com \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox