From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224JfMy8citgMPlyf6ltyoUH3ugcYqKQO9j8W5mN4KBYAcOeKKe+Wsoy1LTLOIX42CfidaPg ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1516572025; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=R8ZnlA+CWPhavRvls1BTRDLgWo6CPnQBIlaa66uj9eOfSZO2brHZmTgEXCSkzUtmln /gXP66j6uQf9XHJ8WgLlZnO6J0HSyeOJ4nQA5m6GzRwkIlfQpLaTua2sKtB3QlUK3PDk IakVNCGbp7eSr6K7Vej9M4axUIe0KVSpmxgExTiODm52GWudw1z/r4Azxy7/ps2sKoaU qfvoAlcBaR837kfcz8SBDhhoCi54krfx0PUfk7BIo5DEZbMhoYBFDi7ABuw+52nRybHT Ygtsi4X79VOhpD/NG0FA6Zzg4fpkftndVxCzCUY8OQklQXgIoNpajMOS3oUnVC/dtb8X tVrg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=mime-version:date:face:references:in-reply-to:cc:to:from:subject :message-id:dkim-signature:arc-authentication-results; bh=AzJ6Z9i39iuJEM/mYJP+FpOAlUXPkjlKa5N9pcRFIFg=; b=JKpy6t07H4dnzRbD00HZirSnC0YVs685M9a0C8dNYUM7QEfmzBX1DB3GbtAs8vS43Y me+QlP9vIPudj0M4VZSKssNjCf5u2P8QVLWva4Kt2EQrFcloj7mEOsWIsNrMG+MaOQWa KQOcHPr1JE3YlSThp1V/LCYNOdziSX6vo4pImFV+UK3u99l5hQbZuetKh8l4LtFpc3pk 52Hyij5rVK11g1VUgDhfCZkXHxSB/jd7MQAnLY8FHjRfkaq9WCFAc/DIFA67rN9G1uzj TB5yteyL6yagLPbTIOO72hoTw2zm6mjau5GFRRbu0JX2tKyQ5G4s2lVmRG/v/8GGTBel zHQg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@infradead.org header.s=twosheds.20170209 header.b=uWeHdn1a; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of batv+c3727a9e9cf4ad240057+5264+infradead.org+dwmw2@twosheds.srs.infradead.org designates 90.155.92.209 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=BATV+c3727a9e9cf4ad240057+5264+infradead.org+dwmw2@twosheds.srs.infradead.org Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@infradead.org header.s=twosheds.20170209 header.b=uWeHdn1a; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of batv+c3727a9e9cf4ad240057+5264+infradead.org+dwmw2@twosheds.srs.infradead.org designates 90.155.92.209 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=BATV+c3727a9e9cf4ad240057+5264+infradead.org+dwmw2@twosheds.srs.infradead.org Message-ID: <1516572013.9814.109.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: [RFC 09/10] x86/enter: Create macros to restrict/unrestrict Indirect Branch Speculation From: David Woodhouse To: Linus Torvalds Cc: KarimAllah Ahmed , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andi Kleen , Andrea Arcangeli , Andy Lutomirski , Arjan van de Ven , Ashok Raj , Asit Mallick , Borislav Petkov , Dan Williams , Dave Hansen , Greg Kroah-Hartman , "H . Peter Anvin" , Ingo Molnar , Janakarajan Natarajan , Joerg Roedel , Jun Nakajima , Laura Abbott , Masami Hiramatsu , Paolo Bonzini , Peter Zijlstra , Radim =?UTF-8?Q?Kr=C4=8Dm=C3=A1=C5=99?= , Thomas Gleixner , Tim Chen , Tom Lendacky , KVM list , the arch/x86 maintainers , Arjan Van De Ven In-Reply-To: References: <1516476182-5153-1-git-send-email-karahmed@amazon.de> <1516476182-5153-10-git-send-email-karahmed@amazon.de> <1516566497.9814.78.camel@infradead.org> Face: 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 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-njR401xZhB+xTgdAg6mZ" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 22:00:13 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.2-0ubuntu3.2 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by twosheds.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html X-getmail-retrieved-from-mailbox: INBOX X-GMAIL-THRID: =?utf-8?q?1590140582166248265?= X-GMAIL-MSGID: =?utf-8?q?1590241027720661604?= X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org List-ID: --=-njR401xZhB+xTgdAg6mZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2018-01-21 at 13:35 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 12:28 PM, David Woodhouse wrote: > > As a hack for existing CPUs, it's just about tolerable =E2=80=94 as lon= g as it > > can die entirely by the next generation. > > That's part of the big problem here. The speculation control cpuid > stuff shows that Intel actually seems to plan on doing the right thing > for meltdown (the main question being _when_). Which is not a huge > surprise, since it should be easy to fix, and it's a really honking > big hole to drive through. Not doing the right thing for meltdown > would be completely unacceptable. >=20 > So the IBRS garbage implies that Intel is _not_ planning on doing the > right thing for the indirect branch speculation. >=20 > Honestly, that's completely unacceptable too. Agreed. I've been saying that since I first saw the IBRS_ALL proposal. There's *no* good reason for it to be opt-in. Just fix it! > > So the part is I think is odd is the IBRS_ALL feature, where a future > > CPU will advertise "I am able to be not broken" and then you have to > > set the IBRS bit once at boot time to *ask* it not to be broken. That > > part is weird, because it ought to have been treated like the RDCL_NO > > bit =E2=80=94 just "you don't have to worry any more, it got better". > > It's not "weird" at all. It's very much part of the whole "this is > complete garbage" issue. >=20 > The whole IBRS_ALL feature to me very clearly says "Intel is not > serious about this, we'll have a ugly hack that will be so expensive > that we don't want to enable it by default, because that would look > bad in benchmarks". >=20 > So instead they try to push the garbage down to us. And they are doing > it entirely wrong, even from a technical standpoint. Right. The whole IBRS/IBPB thing as a nasty hack in the short term I could live with, but it's the long-term implications of IBRS_ALL that I'm unhappy about. My understanding was that the IBRS_ALL performance was supposed to not suck =E2=80=94 to the extent that we'd just turn it on and then ALTERNATIVE= out the retpolines, and that would be the best option. But if that's the case, why are they making it an option, and not just doing the same as RDCL_NO does for "we fixed Meltdown"? > > We do need the IBPB feature to complete the protection that retpoline > > gives us =E2=80=94 it's that or rebuild all of userspace with retpoline= . > > BULLSHIT. >=20 > Have you _looked_ at the patches you are talking about?=C2=A0=C2=A0You sh= ould > have - several of them bear your name. >=20 > The patches do things like add the garbage MSR writes to the kernel > entry/exit points. That's insane. That says "we're trying to protect > the kernel".=C2=A0=C2=A0We already have retpoline there, with less overhe= ad. You're looking at IBRS usage, not IBPB. They are different things. Yes, the one you're looking at really *is* trying to protect the kernel, and you're right that it's largely redundant with retpoline. (Assuming we can live with the implications on Skylake, as I said.) > If this was about flushing the BTB at actual context switches between > different users, I'd believe you. But that's not at all what the > patches do. That's what the *IBPB* patches do. 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