CML 1.1.0, aka "I feel the need...the need for speed."

CML 1.1.0, aka "I feel the need...the need for speed."

[Eric S. Raymond]

The latest version is always available at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/

Release 1.1.0: Fri Apr 13 23:10:56 EDT 2001
	* Better-controlled recursivity in the theorem prover; reading in
	  defconfigs is much faster now.
	* Revised config/xconfig/menuconfig/oldconfigs productions, these
	  should be a better match for the expected behavior now.
	* Ternary-select (a ? b : c) added to the language.

Configurator startup is now so much faster it's almost ridiculous.  Wheee!

I added ternary-select to handle some weird cases in the CRIS port
tree for 2.4.4-pre1.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there
be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of
blindfolded fear.... Do not be frightened from this inquiry from any
fear of its consequences. If it ends in the belief that there is no
God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and
pleasantness you feel in its exercise...
	-- Thomas Jefferson, in a 1787 letter to his nephew

comments on CML 1.1.0

[Marko Kreen]

Using CML2 1.1.0 'menuconfig' on clean 2.4.3 (mach is PPro 180)

Suggestions:

* the 'N' should be shown as ' ' as in menuconfig - it is
  visually much better to get overview of whole screenful.
  'Y'/'M' and 'N' are basically of 'same size' so you must look
  directly on letter to understand what it is - not good.

* the menuconfig had nice shortcut: when you pressed 'm' on
  [YN] field, it put 'y' there without questions.  So you could
  use only 2 keys to configure one screen: 'n/m'.  this meant
  you did not need to move fingers around and think about it
  so much - big thing when you are not touch-typer...

* the colors are hard to see (red/blue on black).  Probably
  matter of terminal settings.  I do not have any productive
  ideas tho...  Probably to get best experience to as much
  people as possible the less colors are used the better.
  
  The 'blue: last visited submenu' is unnecessary.  Especially
  because it later turns green...  And the 'red' vs. 'green'
  thing.  I guess the green should be used for 'visited entries'
  too.  Now the red means like 'Doh.  So I should not have
  touched this?'.  Confusing.

  In other words: if there are too much colors, they become
  a thing that should be separately learned, not a helpful
  aid.

  All this IMHO ofcourse.  Colors are 'matter of taste' thing
  so there probably is not exact Rigth Thing.

Bugs/complaints:

* aic7xxx is not updated (defaults: are 8/5 should be 253/5000)
  (this from arch/i386/defconfig maybe?)

* 'IDE chipset support' nesting is very confusing - compare
  to menuconfig.  I would say even 'wrong'...
  (eg. 'PIIXn tuning' is is under 'PIIXn support' which is not
  under 'ATA works in progress'.

* screen is redrawn after _every_ keystroke - not only in moving
  around, but even when you are on input field...

* input field: when there is some default and I start typing it
  should either clear it or append.


-- 
marko

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[jeff millar]

Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends.  But,
I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility
modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel.

jeff

CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed

[Anton Altaparmakov]

Ok, I tried the CML2 1.1.0. (Had to spend hours installing Python
2.0 until I found all required configure options and got the right modules 
compiled in, but ok, that's a one off and is not CML2's fault, also ran
make test to make sure it works.)

Installed cml, cwd to kernel, and ran make menuconfig.

Waited about 2-5 minutes (didn't time it) to get the menu. Slower than
CML1 by a bit. [Note: My development machine is a Pentium Classic 133S
with 64MiB ECC RAM and ATA-100 7200RPM HD on Promise ATA-100 controller
with several network cards, runs like a charm with 2.4 kernel for what it
is used for: file serving/ftp serving/smb serving/nat]

In the menu the colour scheme is a bit strange but everyone has a
different taste. Would need some getting used to, but ok. It does seem
like a step back in time though, compared to the old menuconfig which had
nice windows feel and colours, IMHO. I am not sure why it had to be
changed. Surely you can have the old interface with the new theorem
prover?

I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel
and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic"
option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at
the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then
onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium
Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here.

Now a general comment: CML2 is extremely slow to the point of not being
usable! )-: It would take me hours to configure a kernel with this.  Just
pressing "n"/"y" or "m" somewhere takes easily several seconds to
complete... Pressing any of the arrow keys takes between 1 (up/down) and
10 (left/right) seconds to complete. *Argh!* When a window is up, saying
press any key to continue there are delays of several seconds of nothing
happening at all before the window disappers. 

With this slow response time, I wonder whether I actually pressed the key
so press it again, key gets queued, so it gets executed when the first key
press has finished executing wreaking havoc. )-: It might be all cool and
good having a theorem prover and what not inside the configuration but if
this is going to replace CML1 completely, IMHO, you will _have_ to provide
some speedy way of configuration (and no, using "vi .config" or equivalent
is not an option I would like to use...). Many people have been commenting
that speed doesn't matter "just use a newer computer" but that argument is
just stupid IMNSHO. That's what MS says when they release a new
OS/program... I don't need a new computer, this one works absolutely fine
and maxes out all it's 10Mbit network connections quite happily, so why
should I buy something faster?!? Just to configure a kernel? Surely not.
Linux has always been the OS of choice for people with a small budget and
the way it is going it is running the danger of loosing this corner of
this rather big market.

I will be back to CML1 now so I can configure and kick off the compile
of this kernel before dinner...

Best regards,

	Anton

-- 
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Linux NTFS maintainer / WWW: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/
ICQ: 8561279 / WWW: http://www-stu.christs.cam.ac.uk/~aia21/

Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed

[Eric S. Raymond]

Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cus.cam.ac.uk>:
> In the menu the colour scheme is a bit strange but everyone has a
> different taste. Would need some getting used to, but ok. It does seem
> like a step back in time though, compared to the old menuconfig which had
> nice windows feel and colours, IMHO. I am not sure why it had to be
> changed. Surely you can have the old interface with the new theorem
> prover?

I couldn't do both that and share back-end code with the other interfaces.
 
> I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel
> and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic"
> option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at
> the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then
> onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium
> Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here.

Rules file bug, probably.  I'll investigate this afternoon.

> Now a general comment: CML2 is extremely slow to the point of not being
> usable! )-:

I'm still tuning.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Love your country, but never trust its government.
	-- Robert A. Heinlein.

Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed

[Anton Altaparmakov]

At 18:56 14/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cus.cam.ac.uk>:
> > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel
> > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic"
> > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at
> > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then
> > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium
> > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here.
>
>Rules file bug, probably.  I'll investigate this afternoon.

Just to say that this bug still exists in CML2 1.1.1 but it is sometimes 
hidden, i.e. you only see a "Y" on one of the options but when you select 
another option, it sometimes says that TWO other options were set to "n" 
implying that two options were Y before... I also still see random two 
options being Y when playing with Pentium Classic selection (right now I 
see Pentium Classic and Pentium-4 at the same time being Y on my screen)...

Hope this helps,

         Anton


-- 
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Linux NTFS Maintainer / WWW: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/
ICQ: 8561279 / WWW: http://www-stu.christs.cam.ac.uk/~aia21/

Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed

[Eric S. Raymond]

Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cam.ac.uk>:
> At 18:56 14/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> >Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cus.cam.ac.uk>:
> > > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", "Intel
> > > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic"
> > > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic options at
> > > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else and then
> > > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium
> > > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here.
> >
> >Rules file bug, probably.  I'll investigate this afternoon.
> 
> Just to say that this bug still exists in CML2 1.1.1 but it is sometimes 
> hidden, i.e. you only see a "Y" on one of the options but when you select 
> another option, it sometimes says that TWO other options were set to "n" 
> implying that two options were Y before... I also still see random two 
> options being Y when playing with Pentium Classic selection (right now I 
> see Pentium Classic and Pentium-4 at the same time being Y on my screen)...

I can't reproduce this in 1.1.2.  Here's a ttyconfig run, after "v 2" to set
the verbose flag.

    Skip-to-query arrived at x86type
Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types may have these values:
 1: M386                            386
 2: M486                            486
 3: M586                            586/K5/5x86/6x86/6x86MX
 4: M586TSC                         Pentium Classic
 5: M586MMX                         Pentium MMX
 6: M686                            Pentium Pro/Celeron/Pentium II
 7: MPENTIUMIII                     Pentium-III
 8: MPENTIUM4                       Pentium-4
 9: MK6                             K6/K6-II/K6-III
10: MK7                             Athlon/Duron/K7
11: MCRUSOE                         Crusoe
12: MWINCHIPC6                      Winchip-C6
13: MWINCHIP2                       Winchip-2
14: MWINCHIP3D                      Winchip-2A/Winchip-3
15: MCYRIXIII                       CyrixIII/C3
x86type: Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types (M686): 4
User action on M586TSC.
    set_symbol_internal(M586TSC, y, None)
    bindsymbol(M586TSC, y, M586TSC)
    M586TSC=y
    set_symbol_internal(M386, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol M386 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(M486, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol M486 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(M586, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol M586 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(M586MMX, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol M586MMX unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(M686, n, M586TSC)
    bindsymbol(M686, n, M586TSC)
    M686=n (deduced from M586TSC)
    set_symbol_internal(MPENTIUMIII, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MPENTIUMIII unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MPENTIUM4, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MPENTIUM4 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MK6, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MK6 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MK7, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MK7 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MCRUSOE, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MCRUSOE unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MWINCHIPC6, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MWINCHIPC6 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MWINCHIP2, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MWINCHIP2 unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MWINCHIP3D, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MWINCHIP3D unchanged
    set_symbol_internal(MCYRIXIII, n, M586TSC)
    Symbol MCYRIXIII unchanged
    Unchilling...
M686=n (deduced from M586TSC)
    Committing new bindings.
Trit flag is now y
    Skip-to-query called from x86type
    is_visible(MICROCODE) called
    MICROCODE not visible, MICROCODE guard M686 is false
    is_visible(TOSHIBA) called
    Query of TOSHIBA *not* elided
    Skip-to-query arrived at TOSHIBA
TOSHIBA: Toshiba Laptop support < > (NEW)?: 

I'm going to ship 1.1.2 in a few hours.  Would you see if you can reproduce
it in your environment?  Perhaps it's some effect of reading in your
existing config.out.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

...the Federal Judiciary...an irresponsible body, working like gravity
by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and
advancing its noiseless step like a thief over the field of
jurisdiction until all shall be usurped from the States; and the
government of all be consolidated into one.

Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed

[Anton Altaparmakov]

At 18:59 15/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cam.ac.uk>:
> > At 18:56 14/04/2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > >Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cus.cam.ac.uk>:
> > > > I found a bug: In "Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options", 
> "Intel
> > > > and compatible 80x86 processor types" I press "y" on "Pentium Classic"
> > > > option and it activates Penitum-III as well as Pentium Classic 
> options at
> > > > the same time!?! Tried to play around switching to something else 
> and then
> > > > onto Pentium Classic again and it enabled Pentium Classic and Pentium
> > > > Pro/Celeron/Pentium II (NEW) this time! Something is very wrong here.
> > >
> > >Rules file bug, probably.  I'll investigate this afternoon.
> >
> > Just to say that this bug still exists in CML2 1.1.1 but it is sometimes
> > hidden, i.e. you only see a "Y" on one of the options but when you select
> > another option, it sometimes says that TWO other options were set to "n"
> > implying that two options were Y before... I also still see random two
> > options being Y when playing with Pentium Classic selection (right now I
> > see Pentium Classic and Pentium-4 at the same time being Y on my screen)...
>
>I can't reproduce this in 1.1.2.  Here's a ttyconfig run, after "v 2" to set
>the verbose flag.

I can't reproduce it with ttyconfig either. But here is how to reproduce it 
reliably with menuconfig:

make mrproper
rm .config
rm config.out
make menuconfig
down
down
right
right
[Now in cpu selection have a Y next to M686.]
down to M586TSC
y
msg: M686=n (deduced from M586TSC)
enter to dismis msg
up
[now at M586]
y
msg: M586TSC=n (deduced from M586)
enter to dismis msg
down
[now back at M586TSC]
y
msg: M586=n (deduced from M586TSC)
enter to dismis msg
[now have a Y for both M586TSC and M686]
y
[nothing happens, as it is already 'y' it's expected]
down
[now notice colouring: M586TSC is green while M686 is grey like the rest]
down
[now at M686 which has the second y but is grey]
y
[nothing happens, as it is 'y' it's expected, but it shouldn't be 'y']
down
[now at MPENTIUMIII]
y
msg: M586TSC=n (deduced from MPENTIUMIII)
      M686=n (deduced from MPENTIUMIII)
enter to dismis msg
[only one Y left at expected position MPENTIUMIII]

I cannot reproduce any of this using make ttyconfig I am afraid...

The above in/output was with CML2 1.1.2.

There must be something... Can you reproduce this? I gave you all 
keypresses I used. I can reproduce it every time.

If I press 'x' after the two 'Y' have appeared at the same time and look at 
the generated .config it says:

# Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types
#
# CONFIG_M386 is not set
# CONFIG_M486 is not set
# CONFIG_M586 is not set
CONFIG_M586TSC=y
# CONFIG_M586MMX is not set
CONFIG_M686=y
# CONFIG_MPENTIUMIII is not set
# CONFIG_MPENTIUM4 is not set
# CONFIG_MK6 is not set
# CONFIG_MK7 is not set
# CONFIG_MCRUSOE is not set
# CONFIG_MWINCHIPC6 is not set
# CONFIG_MWINCHIP2 is not set
# CONFIG_MWINCHIP3D is not set
# CONFIG_MCYRIXIII is not set

And config.out contains:

# Intel and compatible 80x86 processor types
#
CONFIG_M386=n
CONFIG_M486=n
CONFIG_M586=n
CONFIG_M586TSC=y
CONFIG_M586MMX=n
CONFIG_M686=y
CONFIG_MPENTIUMIII=n
CONFIG_MPENTIUM4=n
CONFIG_MK6=n
CONFIG_MK7=n
CONFIG_MCRUSOE=n
CONFIG_MWINCHIPC6=n
CONFIG_MWINCHIP2=n
CONFIG_MWINCHIP3D=n
CONFIG_MCYRIXIII=n

This shows quite cleary that the state really is messed up indeed.

Let me know if you cannot reproduce this stil...

If there is anything I can help to narrow this down let me know (I don't 
know any Python I am afraid). Once I have my permanent netconnection back 
to home (will take a few days) I can give you a ssh shell account on this 
system if it would be helpful. At the moment the only interaction with the 
world is using a floppy disk or my Windows box and the modem in my Nokia 
7110... )-:

Best regards,

         Anton


-- 
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Linux NTFS Maintainer / WWW: http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/
ICQ: 8561279 / WWW: http://www-stu.christs.cam.ac.uk/~aia21/

Re: CML2 1.1.0 bug and snailspeed

[Eric S. Raymond]

Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cam.ac.uk>:
> I can't reproduce it with ttyconfig either. But here is how to reproduce it 
> reliably with menuconfig:

Excellent!  I was able to reproduce it and track it down.  This will be fixed
in tonight's release.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression: for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that
will reach unto himself.
	-- Thomas Paine

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[Eric S. Raymond]

jeff millar <jeff@wa1hco.mv.com>:
> Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends.  But,
> I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility
> modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel.

Would somebody who knows what these dependencies are please send me a rule
patch?
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

...Virtually never are murderers the ordinary, law-abiding people
against whom gun bans are aimed.  Almost without exception, murderers
are extreme aberrants with lifelong histories of crime, substance
abuse, psychopathology, mental retardation and/or irrational violence
against those around them, as well as other hazardous behavior, e.g.,
automobile and gun accidents."
        -- Don B. Kates, writing on statistical patterns in gun crime

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[Harald Welte]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:51:53PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> jeff millar <jeff@wa1hco.mv.com>:
> > Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends.  But,
> > I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility
> > modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel.
> 
> Would somebody who knows what these dependencies are please send me a rule
> patch?

Ok, as I am one of the netfilter people, and I've already cleaned up this 
issue after Linus' switch to the 'new-style' Makefiles somewhen in 2.4.0-textXX
I might be suitable for this job. 

Unfortunately I don't know too much about CML2, so I cannot provide you with
a straightforward ruleset, only with a description:

Basically there are the following dependencies:

1. you compile connection tracking as module
	a) iptables compiled as module
		- you can compile ANY or BOTH of ipchains, ipfwadm as 
		  module ONLY (not static)
	b) iptables compiled static
		- NO possibility of compiling ipchains or ipfwadm at all,
		  either as module or static
	c) iptables NOT compiled at all
		- you can compile ONE OF ipchains, ipfwadm statically
		- you can compile BOTH of them as modules

2. you compile connection tracking statically into the kernel
	- NO possibility of compiling ipchains or ipfwadm at all,
	  either module or static
	- iptables can be compiled modular or static


there's another interesting dependency, I'll describe the problem first:

Netfilter has modules called connection tracking and nat helpers. For
most protocols, they will appear in pairs (as opposed to only one module
called ip_masq_XXX in 2.2.x). They are performing independent functionality,
and you will never need the NAT helper on a non-nat box.

1. connection tracking (CONFIG_IP_NF_CONNTRACK) is on (M or Y)
   Full NAT (CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT) off
	- if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is OFF, none of ip_conntrack_ftp.c/ip_nat_ftp.c
	  are compiled
	- if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is ON (M or Y), ip_conntrcak_ftp.c is compiled
	  (as module or statically, as apropriate)
2. connection tracking is on (M or Y), Full NAT is on (M or Y)
	- if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is OFF, none of ip_conntrack_ftp.c/ip_nat_ftp.c
	  are compiled
	- if CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP is ON (M or Y), both ip_conntrack_ftp.c AND
	  ip_nat_ftp.c are compiled (module or static, as user wishes)


I'm asking myself if we now should be proud of having the most complicated
dependencies of the whole kernel ;)

-- 
Live long and prosper
- Harald Welte / laforge@gnumonks.org                http://www.gnumonks.org
============================================================================
GCS/E/IT d- s-: a-- C+++ UL++++$ P+++ L++++$ E--- W- N++ o? K- w--- O- M- 
V-- PS+ PE-- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- !X !R tv-- b+++ DI? !D G+ e* h+ r% y+(*)

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[Eric S. Raymond]

Harald Welte <laforge@gnumonks.org>:
> Unfortunately I don't know too much about CML2, so I cannot provide you with
> a straightforward ruleset, only with a description:
      :
> I'm asking myself if we now should be proud of having the most complicated
> dependencies of the whole kernel ;)

That's truly nasty.  I've attempted to translate these, but I'm not at all sure
I've got them right.  I'd appreciate it if you would take a look at the rules
file after I ship 1.1.4.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
	-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[Daniel Stone]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:58:41AM -0400, jeff millar wrote:
> Selecting IP_NF_COMPAT_IPCHAINS turns off IP_NF_CONNTRACK and friends.  But,
> I think CML1, allowed both support to the new iptables and compatibility
> modes to allow old ipchains scripts to work with the new kernel.

Only as modules: conntrack/queueing/iptables, ipchains compat, and ipfwadm
compat, are all mutually exclusive. The only way that this was at all
possible in 2.4.x was via modules, but even then, they were still mutually
exclusive.

-- 
Daniel Stone
Linux Kernel Developer
daniel@kabuki.openfridge.net

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
G!>CS d s++:- a---- C++ ULS++++$>B P---- L+++>++++ E+(joe)>+++ W++ N->++ !o
K? w++(--) O---- M- V-- PS+++ PE- Y PGP>++ t--- 5-- X- R- tv-(!) b+++ DI+++ 
D+ G e->++ h!(+) r+(%) y? UF++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[Eric S. Raymond]

Marko Kreen <marko@l-t.ee>:
> Using CML2 1.1.0 'menuconfig' on clean 2.4.3 (mach is PPro 180)
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> * the 'N' should be shown as ' ' as in menuconfig - it is
>   visually much better to get overview of whole screenful.
>   'Y'/'M' and 'N' are basically of 'same size' so you must look
>   directly on letter to understand what it is - not good.

I've gone this one better.  It's now "Y", "m", " ", so the m and y
responses are easily distinguished.
 
> * the menuconfig had nice shortcut: when you pressed 'm' on
>   [YN] field, it put 'y' there without questions.  So you could
>   use only 2 keys to configure one screen: 'n/m'.  this meant
>   you did not need to move fingers around and think about it
>   so much - big thing when you are not touch-typer...

Implemented.

> * the colors are hard to see (red/blue on black).  Probably
>   matter of terminal settings.  I do not have any productive
>   ideas tho...  Probably to get best experience to as much
>   people as possible the less colors are used the better.
>   
>   The 'blue: last visited submenu' is unnecessary.  Especially
>   because it later turns green...  And the 'red' vs. 'green'
>   thing.  I guess the green should be used for 'visited entries'
>   too.  Now the red means like 'Doh.  So I should not have
>   touched this?'.  Confusing.
> 
>   In other words: if there are too much colors, they become
>   a thing that should be separately learned, not a helpful
>   aid.
> 
>   All this IMHO ofcourse.  Colors are 'matter of taste' thing
>   so there probably is not exact Rigth Thing.

You make good points.  In the 1.1.1, blue and yellow/brown will be gone;
it's just green for everything visited.

> Bugs/complaints:
> 
> * aic7xxx is not updated (defaults: are 8/5 should be 253/5000)
>   (this from arch/i386/defconfig maybe?)

Fixed.

> * 'IDE chipset support' nesting is very confusing - compare
>   to menuconfig.  I would say even 'wrong'...
>   (eg. 'PIIXn tuning' is is under 'PIIXn support' which is not
>   under 'ATA works in progress'.

Rules-file patches will be cheerfully accepted.
 
> * screen is redrawn after _every_ keystroke - not only in moving
>   around, but even when you are on input field...

I know.  The workaround is to use gnome-term, which for some reason
doesn't show this.  It's tops on my longer-term to-do list.

> * input field: when there is some default and I start typing it
>   should either clear it or append.

On my to-do list.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

The men and women who founded our country knew, by experience, that there
are times when the free person's answer to oppressive government has to be
delivered with a bullet.  Thus, the right to bear arms is not just *a*
freedom; it's the mother of all freedoms.  Don't let them disarm you!

Re: comments on CML 1.1.0

[Oliver Xymoron]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote:

> > * the colors are hard to see (red/blue on black).  Probably
> >   matter of terminal settings.  I do not have any productive
> >   ideas tho...  Probably to get best experience to as much
> >   people as possible the less colors are used the better.
> >
> >   The 'blue: last visited submenu' is unnecessary.  Especially
> >   because it later turns green...  And the 'red' vs. 'green'
> >   thing.  I guess the green should be used for 'visited entries'
> >   too.  Now the red means like 'Doh.  So I should not have
> >   touched this?'.  Confusing.
> >
> >   In other words: if there are too much colors, they become
> >   a thing that should be separately learned, not a helpful
> >   aid.
> >
> >   All this IMHO ofcourse.  Colors are 'matter of taste' thing
> >   so there probably is not exact Rigth Thing.
>
> You make good points.  In the 1.1.1, blue and yellow/brown will be gone;
> it's just green for everything visited.

I haven't had a chance to take a look, but a heads-up about color
confusion issues. There may be no right thing, but there are plenty of
wrong things. For instance, for about 4% of people (8% of males), RGB
FFFF00 and 00FF00 are nearly indistiguishable, as are FF00FF and 0000FF.

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