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From: Willem Konynenberg <wfk@xos.nl>
To: Abramo Bagnara <abramo@alsa-project.org>
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device arguments from lookup)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:01:06 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200105191601.SAA04009@rabbit.xos.nl> (raw)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 19 May 2001 17:10:56 +0200." <3B068D00.95338099@alsa-project.org>

Abramo Bagnara wrote:
> Alexander Viro wrote:
> >         Folks, before you get all excited about cramming side effects into
> > open(2), consider the following case:
> > 
> > 1) opening "/dev/zero/start_nuclear_war" has a certain side effect.
[...]
> Can't this easily avoided if the needed action is not
> 
> < /dev/zero/start_nuclear_war 
> or
> > /dev/zero/start_nuclear_war
> 
> but
> 
> echo "I'm evil" > /dev/zero/start_nuclear_war
> 
> ?

Yes, and that is exactly the difference between having a side effect
on the open(2), versus having the effect as a result of a write(2).

Unfortunately, there are already some cases where an open
on a device can have unexpected results.  If you don't want
to get blocked waiting for the carrier-detect signal from the
modem when opening a tty device, you had better specify the
O_NONBLOCK option on the open.  If you don't want this flag
to be active during the actual I/O operations, then you would
have to do an fcntl to clear the O_NONBLOCK again after the open.

So I guess things have already been a bit messy in this
area for many years, even before linux even existed, and
in some cases you can't really do anything about it because
the behaviour is mandated by the applicable standards, like
POSIX, SUS, or whatever.
(The blocking of the open on a tty device is explicitly
 documented in my copy of the X/Open specification.)

Fortunately, blocking the nightly backup program by making it
accidentally open a tty is not quite as catastrophic as having
it start a nuclear war, or format the disks, or something,
just because a user was playing games with symlinks.

-- 
     Willem Konynenberg <wfk@xos.nl>
I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas
that could provoke such a question  --  Charles Babbage

  parent reply	other threads:[~2001-05-19 16:01 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 161+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2001-05-19  6:23 [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup, partion code in userspace Ben LaHaise
2001-05-19  6:57 ` [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup, partion code inuserspace Andrew Clausen
2001-05-19  7:04   ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19  7:23     ` Andrew Clausen
2001-05-19  8:30       ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 10:13         ` Andrew Clausen
2001-05-19 14:02         ` [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup, partion code Alan Cox
2001-05-19 16:48           ` Erik Mouw
2001-05-19 17:45             ` Aaron Lehmann
2001-05-19 19:38               ` Erik Mouw
2001-05-19 20:53                 ` Steven Walter
2001-05-19 18:51           ` Richard Gooch
2001-05-20  2:18             ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-20  2:22               ` Richard Gooch
2001-05-20  2:34                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-20  2:48                   ` Richard Gooch
2001-05-20  3:26                     ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 10:23                       ` Russell King
2001-05-20 10:35                         ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 18:46                         ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 18:57                           ` Russell King
2001-05-20 19:10                             ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 19:42                               ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 20:07                                 ` Alan Cox
2001-05-20 20:33                                   ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 23:59                                   ` Paul Fulghum
2001-05-21  0:36                                     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-21  3:08                                       ` Paul Fulghum
2001-05-20 20:07                                 ` Alan Cox
2001-05-20 23:46                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2001-05-21  0:32                                   ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-21  3:12                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-21 19:32                                     ` Kai Henningsen
2001-05-23  1:15                                     ` Albert D. Cahalan
2001-05-20  2:36                 ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20  2:51                   ` Richard Gooch
2001-05-20 21:13                     ` Pavel Machek
2001-05-21 20:20                       ` Alan Cox
2001-05-21 20:41                         ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-21 21:29                           ` Alan Cox
2001-05-21 21:51                             ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-21 21:56                               ` Alan Cox
2001-05-21 22:10                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-21 22:22                                   ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-22  2:28                                     ` Paul Mackerras
2001-05-22 15:41                                     ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-22 13:33                                   ` Jan Harkes
2001-05-22 16:30                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-22  0:22                               ` Ingo Oeser
2001-05-22  0:57                                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-22  1:13                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-22  1:18                                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-22  7:49                                       ` Alan Cox
2001-05-22 15:31                                         ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-22 15:31                                           ` Alan Cox
2001-05-22 15:38                                             ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-22 15:42                                               ` Alan Cox
2001-05-20  2:31             ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 16:57             ` David Woodhouse
2001-05-20 19:02               ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 19:11                 ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 19:18                   ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-20 19:24                     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 19:34                       ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 19:27                   ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 19:33                     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 19:38                       ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20 19:57                 ` David Woodhouse
2001-05-21 13:57                 ` Ingo Oeser
2001-05-19  9:11     ` [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup, partion code inuserspace Andrew Morton
2001-05-19  9:20       ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19  7:58   ` Ben LaHaise
2001-05-19  8:10     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19  8:16       ` Ben LaHaise
2001-05-19  8:32         ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19  9:42 ` [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup, partion code in userspace Christer Weinigel
2001-05-19  9:51 ` Christer Weinigel
2001-05-19 11:37 ` Eric W. Biederman
2001-05-19 14:25   ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-21  8:14     ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2001-05-22  9:07       ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-19 13:53 ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-19 13:57 ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup) Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 15:10   ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device " Abramo Bagnara
2001-05-19 15:18     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 16:01     ` Willem Konynenberg [this message]
2001-05-20 20:52       ` Pavel Machek
2001-05-20 20:53       ` Pavel Machek
2001-05-19 18:13   ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH] device " Linus Torvalds
2001-05-19 23:19     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 23:31       ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device " Jeff Garzik
2001-05-19 23:32         ` Jeff Garzik
2001-05-19 23:39         ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 15:47           ` F_CTRLFD (was Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil.) Edgar Toernig
2001-05-20 16:20             ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 19:01               ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-20 19:30                 ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-21 17:16           ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device arguments from lookup) Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-21 16:26             ` David Lang
2001-05-21 18:04               ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-21 20:14             ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-22 15:24               ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-22 16:51                 ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-22 17:49                   ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-22 20:22                     ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-23  4:19                   ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-23  4:50                     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-23 13:50                     ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-23 13:50                     ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-23 15:58                       ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-24  0:23                       ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-24  7:47                         ` Marko Kreen
2001-05-24 14:39                           ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-24 15:20                             ` CHR/BLK needed? was: Re: Why side-effects on open Marko Kreen
2001-05-24 17:12                             ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device Albert D. Cahalan
2001-05-24 17:25                         ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device arguments from lookup) Daniel Phillips
2001-05-24 20:59                           ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-24 21:26                             ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-25  1:03                               ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-25 11:00                             ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-26  3:07                               ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-26 22:36                                 ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-27 13:32                                   ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-27 20:40                                     ` Ben LaHaise
2001-05-27 20:45                                     ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-27 21:50                                       ` Marko Kreen
2001-05-28  1:26                                       ` Horst von Brand
2001-05-29 10:54                                         ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-29 13:54                                           ` Horst von Brand
2001-05-19 23:52   ` Edgar Toernig
2001-05-20  0:18     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20  0:32       ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-20  0:52         ` Jeff Garzik
2001-05-20  1:03         ` Jeff Garzik
2001-05-20 19:41           ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD Alan Cox
2001-05-21  9:45           ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]device arguments from lookup) Andrew Clausen
2001-05-21 17:22           ` Oliver Xymoron
2001-05-22 18:53           ` Andreas Dilger
2001-05-24  9:20             ` Malcolm Beattie
2001-05-24 19:15               ` Andreas Dilger
2001-05-22 18:41         ` Andreas Dilger
2001-05-22 19:06           ` Linus Torvalds
2001-05-22 19:16             ` Peter J. Braam
2001-05-22 20:10               ` Andreas Dilger
2001-05-22 20:59                 ` Peter J. Braam
2001-05-23  9:23                   ` Stephen C. Tweedie
2001-05-24 21:07                 ` Daniel Phillips
2001-05-24 22:00                   ` Hans Reiser
2001-05-25 10:56                     ` Daniel Phillips
2001-06-01  3:24                       ` [reiserfs-list] " Hans Reiser
2001-05-23  9:13               ` Stephen C. Tweedie
2001-05-20 20:23   ` Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH] device " Pavel Machek
2001-05-21 20:38     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 18:31 ` [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup, partion code in userspace Linus Torvalds
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2001-05-19 14:19 Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH] device arguments from lookup) Andries.Brouwer
2001-05-19 14:58 ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 16:41 Andries.Brouwer
2001-05-19 16:51 ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-19 17:14   ` Matthew Wilcox
2001-05-19 23:24     ` Alexander Viro
2001-05-20 11:18 ` Matthew Kirkwood

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