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From: "Dimitrie O. Paun" <dpaun@rogers.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
Cc: mark@mark.mielke.cc, billh@gnuppy.monkey.org, paul@clubi.ie,
	riel@conectiva.com.br, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in non-free drivers?
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:27:52 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200301031627.52561.dpaun@rogers.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20030103212631.GD24896@work.bitmover.com>

On January 3, 2003 04:26 pm, Larry McVoy wrote:
> If we look at the entire software development world as one big system,
> what history shows us is that the vast majority of the effort is wasted,
> only 1% of it succeeds (1%, 10%, pick your number, the vast majority of
> it fails).

Larry, in general I agree with you, but there are a number of things
that you've touched upon which I feel need a bit of a debate.

1. Immitation vs. Inovation
   The free software world has started from 0 relatively recently.
   It is to be expected that we first fill in the gaps that are
   known to be useful, before we start experimenting. I don't think
   this is a major case against us. As for money that is fueling
   research, this is not quite so. It works well in telecom, it
   has a poor record in drug companies, it has a lousy record in
   software. For how much money MS has, what have they innovated?

2. Research & Money
   It seems to me that history has proven that the open ways of the
   scientific community has generated _order_ of magnitude more
   research than the closed business model. Not to mention mathematics.
   Software is a lot more like mathematics than a construction company.
   What have all this money produced in software that's we didn't do
   for free? You see, it is hard for me to say this since I am a
   'rightist': I believe in the free market, capitalism, etc. But it
   certainly looks to me that software works out better in the open.
   And if that's the case, how do we avoid the bleak world you're painting?
   In all honesty, I don't know. But it might not be as ba as you make it
   to be. It might end up like science today: it doesn't pay to be a
   scientist, but I guess it's fun so people do it. Yeah, you will not have
   as much money to test all sort of silly ideas (the 99% that fails), but
   tell me, what do we get out of that? In a free software world, if there
   is a need for something, it will get done. Maybe not now, but in 6 month,
   or 1 year. Big deal. We don't need a Big Brother to invest large amounts
   of money to convince us that we _need_ his useless program.

3. All free software
   This, you know, we'll never happen. We have free software mostly in the
   world of consumer software, and really, it's only a handful of companies
   (MS mostly) that will lose if this turns free. But the vast majority of
   sofware is developed in house, for a client, and that can stay proprietary.
   We're talking mostly infrastructure (OS, X, Office) that need to be free.
   And we all benefit from it. The software that the banks use can stay
   proprietary and continue being shit as it is now. There's no inovation going
   on there, just mony thrown out the window.

-- 
Dimi.


  reply	other threads:[~2003-01-03 22:26 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 244+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2002-12-31  3:57 Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? Hell.Surfers
2002-12-31  6:55 ` David Schwartz
2002-12-31 10:51 ` Andrew Walrond
2002-12-31 12:05   ` Xavier Bestel
2002-12-31 12:19     ` John Bradford
2002-12-31 14:22       ` Jochen Friedrich
2002-12-31 14:31         ` John Bradford
2003-01-01 19:28           ` Måns Rullgård
2002-12-31 14:14     ` Andrew Walrond
2002-12-31 12:41 ` Andre Hedrick
2002-12-31 13:49   ` Mark Rutherford
2002-12-31 15:26     ` Paul Jakma
2002-12-31 15:36       ` Mark Rutherford
2002-12-31 15:44         ` Paul Jakma
2002-12-31 17:05           ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-01-01 19:35           ` Måns Rullgård
2002-12-31 15:11   ` Krzysztof Halasa
2002-12-31 22:36   ` David Schwartz
2003-01-01 16:45 ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-02  0:31   ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-02  1:08     ` David Lang
2003-01-02  1:29       ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-02  1:21         ` David Lang
2003-01-02  1:38           ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-02  1:37     ` Bill Huey
2003-01-02  2:57       ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-02  5:58         ` Bill Huey
2003-01-02  6:14           ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-03  3:32             ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-03  4:06               ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-03  5:00                 ` Erik Andersen
2003-01-03  5:15                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-03  8:31                   ` David S. Miller
2003-01-03  5:04                 ` Marco Monteiro
2003-01-03  5:12                   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 12:16                     ` Marco Monteiro
2003-01-03 12:51                       ` Andrew Walrond
2003-01-03 13:42                         ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-03 14:46                           ` John Alvord
2003-01-03 14:48                           ` Andrew Walrond
2003-01-03 16:13                             ` Erik Andersen
2003-01-03 16:58                               ` David Schwartz
2003-01-05 14:04                                 ` Graham Murray
2003-01-05 22:37                                   ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-06  1:43                                     ` Ian Molton
2003-01-06  5:26                                       ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-06 10:44                                         ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-06 16:06                                           ` Mark Mielke
     [not found]                             ` <3E195A4B.B160B1D2@aitel.hist.no>
2003-01-06 11:23                               ` Andrew Walrond
2003-01-07  9:08                                 ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-07 15:15                                   ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-01-08 10:06                                     ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-08 12:28                                       ` Mark Hounschell
2003-01-08 15:33                                         ` Jesse Pollard
2003-01-08 15:46                                           ` Mark Hounschell
2003-01-08 15:46                                             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-01-08 16:00                                               ` Mark Hounschell
2003-01-03 19:33                           ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-06 10:31                             ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-03 14:49                         ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-03 16:16                         ` Marco Monteiro
2003-01-03 17:45                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 17:53                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-03 18:03                               ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 18:29                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-04  1:33                                 ` David Schwartz
2003-01-03 21:19                             ` Marco Monteiro
2003-01-03 21:37                               ` Disconnect
2003-01-03 23:44                                 ` Marco Monteiro
2003-01-03 21:52                               ` jw schultz
2003-01-04 15:41                               ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-04 13:53                             ` Daniel Egger
2003-01-03 16:16                         ` David Schwartz
2003-01-03 16:37                           ` Marco Monteiro
2003-01-03 18:38                         ` Jon Portnoy
2003-01-03 19:02                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 19:10                           ` Ben Greear
2003-01-03 20:21                           ` Andrew Walrond
2003-01-04  1:51                           ` Alan Cox
2003-01-04  1:24                             ` Jeff Garzik
2003-01-04  5:28                             ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-01-04  8:06                               ` Jon Portnoy
2003-01-04  8:21                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03  6:04                 ` Mike Galbraith
2003-01-03  6:29                   ` Brad Hards
2003-01-03  7:04                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 18:31                     ` Bob Taylor
2003-01-04  1:34                       ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-04 18:16                     ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-03 15:57                   ` Randy.Dunlap
2003-01-03 19:44                     ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-03 20:30                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-03 20:39                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-04 23:44                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-03 22:17                   ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-04 23:44                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-04  6:55                   ` Bob Taylor
2003-01-04  9:06                     ` Vincent Bernat
2003-01-04 21:04                     ` Alan Cox
2003-01-05 18:39                   ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-04 22:06                 ` Matthias Andree
2003-01-04 22:23                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-04 23:10                     ` Steven Barnhart
2003-01-05  0:00                     ` Chief Gadgeteer
2003-01-05  0:26                       ` David Schwartz
2003-01-05  1:48                         ` Chief Gadgeteer
2003-01-05 10:14                     ` Tomas Szepe
2003-01-05 20:40                       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 21:35                         ` Alan Cox
2003-01-05 22:18                           ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 22:58                             ` Tomas Szepe
2003-01-05 21:53                         ` Bruce Harada
2003-01-06 21:05                         ` Ranjeet Shetye
2003-01-06 22:06                           ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-01-05 18:34                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-05 19:28                       ` Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com
2003-01-05 22:13                       ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-06 17:13                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-06 17:29                           ` RIZEN
2003-01-07 13:39                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-06 17:31                           ` Paulo Andre'
2003-01-06 17:39                           ` Bill Huey
2003-01-07 13:40                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-07 14:17                               ` Bill Huey
2003-01-08  8:00                                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-08 15:26                                   ` yodaiken
2003-01-09 23:13                                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-09 23:40                                       ` David D. Hagood
2003-01-10  0:02                                       ` yodaiken
2003-01-11  0:21                                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-08 18:10                                   ` Ranjeet Shetye
2003-01-08  8:00                                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-08  9:04                                   ` OT Naming. was: " Nils Petter Vaskinn
2003-01-08 11:23                                     ` Hacksaw
2003-01-08 12:09                                       ` Måns Rullgård
2003-01-09  9:08                                         ` Hacksaw
2003-01-12 11:56                                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-12 18:27                                       ` OT Naming. was: Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closedsource drivers? Michael D. Shannon
2003-01-08 11:53                                   ` Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? Bill Huey
2003-01-09 23:13                                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-09 23:19                                       ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-11  0:21                                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-10  0:12                                       ` Vlad@Vlad.geekizoid.com
2003-01-10 10:51                                       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-10 15:36                                       ` Linux KERNEL mailinglist! Jan Harkes
2003-01-10 16:10                                       ` Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? Jeff Randall
2003-01-12 11:54                                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-12 18:58                                           ` Jeff Randall
2003-01-14  5:47                                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-14  5:47                                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-14 19:37                                               ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-14 11:23                                                 ` Ranjeet Shetye
2003-01-07 15:10                               ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-03  4:38               ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 20:31                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-03 21:35                   ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-01-04 23:45                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-04 23:58                       ` Mark Rutherford
2003-01-06  3:25                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-06  4:55                           ` Philip Wyett
2003-01-03 23:01                   ` Gauntlet Set NOW! Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 23:56                     ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04  7:12                       ` Ryan Anderson
2003-01-04  9:14                         ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04  9:45                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-04 10:01                             ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04 19:31                               ` Matan Ziv-Av
2003-01-04 19:43                                 ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-06 10:56                               ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-04 23:44                       ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-05  1:22                         ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-05  5:33                           ` Milosz Tanski
2003-01-05  5:12                         ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-05  5:31                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-05 10:47                             ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-05 15:29                               ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-09  7:28                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-09  7:41                       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-09  7:50                       ` Jeff Garzik
2003-01-09  8:08                       ` Andrew Morton
2003-01-09  8:57                         ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2003-01-09 23:06                         ` Oliver Xymoron
2003-01-03  7:51               ` Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? Mark Mielke
2003-01-03 20:30                 ` Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in non-free drivers? Richard Stallman
2003-01-03 21:26                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-03 21:27                     ` Dimitrie O. Paun [this message]
2003-01-05 21:24                       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 22:08                         ` Eric Ortega
2003-01-05 22:34                         ` Ian Molton
2003-01-05 23:09                           ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-04  0:55                     ` Shane R. Stixrud
2003-01-04  2:22                       ` Larry McVoy
2003-01-04  3:18                         ` Shane R. Stixrud
2003-01-04  3:18                           ` Matthew D. Pitts
2003-01-04  6:00                       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-01-04  7:34                         ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-04  7:45                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-04  8:36                           ` Werner Almesberger
2003-01-04  8:52                           ` Shane R. Stixrud
2003-01-04  9:16                             ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-04 21:47                     ` Roman Zippel
2003-01-05 11:15                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-01-04  1:19                   ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-04 23:44                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-05  1:32                       ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-06  3:25                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-06  3:25                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-05  2:22                       ` venom
2003-01-05  9:38                       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-01-05 21:33                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 22:10                       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-05 22:22                       ` Mark Mielke
2003-01-04  3:10                   ` David Schwartz
2003-01-04 23:44                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-05  0:17                       ` David Schwartz
2003-01-05  4:39                         ` Wolfgang Walter
2003-01-05  5:35                           ` David Schwartz
2003-01-06 16:24                             ` Wolfgang Walter
2003-01-06 22:04                               ` David Schwartz
2003-01-07  0:08                                 ` Steven Barnhart
2003-01-07 15:53                                 ` Georg Nikodym
2003-01-07 18:05                                   ` Mike Galbraith
2003-01-05 21:46                           ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 22:06                             ` David Schwartz
2003-01-05 21:17                   ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 22:44                     ` Alan Cox
2003-01-05 22:45                       ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-05 23:03                         ` Xavier Bestel
2003-01-05 23:40                         ` Alan Cox
2003-01-03 10:39               ` Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? Rik van Riel
2003-01-03 11:29                 ` Christoph Hellwig
2003-01-03 11:33                   ` ZHAO Wei
2003-01-03 14:52                 ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-03 15:03                   ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-01-03 20:30                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-03 22:27                   ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-02  6:12       ` Erik Andersen
2003-01-02  6:26         ` Bill Huey
2003-01-02  8:51         ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-01-02  1:57     ` Alan Cox
2003-01-02  1:32       ` Paul Jakma
2003-01-02 20:39     ` David Schwartz
     [not found] <fa.glgbuvv.1m1g1he@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found] ` <fa.ff58bdv.193ou06@ifi.uio.no>
2003-01-05 21:46   ` Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in non-free drivers? walt
2003-01-07 22:30     ` Adrian Bunk

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