Linux kernel rant

Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

Hello,

I am just wondering if anyone thinks the same way.  I am thinking 
about going to BSD for good because of these things.

Linux is starting to include code written under non-disclosure 
agreements and other nasties, and for me this kills the magic of 
Linux.  Doesn't stop anyone from reading the code, but it's the 
principle that counts.

I don't know.  I feel Linux has lost the plot.  It's supposed to be 
getting bigger and better (well, at least bigger -- to borrow words 
from Andy Tanenbaum.  He was referring to the onslaught of 
"improvements" to Minix being submitted, but now this applies to 
Linux as well.)

True, there are lots of nice improvements and binary only drivers 
cannot use ksysms, so I've read somewhere.  (True?  Nice.)  But NDAs?  
Come on, where do you get off on that?

End rant.

Thanks,
James

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Jeff Garzik]

On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 03:51:28PM +1100, James Buchanan wrote:
> Linux is starting to include code written under non-disclosure 
> agreements and other nasties, and for me this kills the magic of 
> Linux.  Doesn't stop anyone from reading the code, but it's the 
> principle that counts.

This has been going on for ages -- and happens in FreeBSD all the time
too.

I can point to multiple BSD net drivers written under NDA, for example.

It's the way of the hardware world.
If you don't get an NDA, you don't get open source support.

	Jeff

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Tomas Szepe]

> [jamesbuch@iprimus.com.au]
>
> I am just wondering if anyone thinks the same way.  I am thinking 
> about going to BSD for good because of these things.

Don't be naive, BSD people have to sign NDA's too if they want to have
decent drivers for cheap hardware.

-- 
Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:26 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> Don't be naive, BSD people have to sign NDA's too if they want to
> have decent drivers for cheap hardware.

I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Tomas Szepe]

> [jamesbuch@iprimus.com.au]
> 
> > Don't be naive, BSD people have to sign NDA's too if they want to
> > have decent drivers for cheap hardware.
> 
> I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.

Certainly he's not the only one on the kernel team.
Really, go browse /usr/src/sys and stop trolling.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:45 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> Certainly he's not the only one on the kernel team.
> Really, go browse /usr/src/sys and stop trolling.

I'm not trolling, stop being such a pussy.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Tomas Szepe]

> [jamesbuch@iprimus.com.au]
> 
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:45 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> > Certainly he's not the only one on the kernel team.
> > Really, go browse /usr/src/sys and stop trolling.
> 
> I'm not trolling, stop being such a pussy.

OK, all you need to do now is sign Rik's NDA to actually
learn how the troll-o-meter works.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:15 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> > [jamesbuch@iprimus.com.au]
> >
> > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:45 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> > > Certainly he's not the only one on the kernel team.
> > > Really, go browse /usr/src/sys and stop trolling.
> >
> > I'm not trolling, stop being such a pussy.
>
> OK, all you need to do now is sign Rik's NDA to actually
> learn how the troll-o-meter works.

LOL!  ;-)

Giving into temptation.... ok, where do I sign?  I want the most 
widely supported troll-o-metres for my mailing lists. 

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, James Buchanan wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:45 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> > Certainly he's not the only one on the kernel team.
> > Really, go browse /usr/src/sys and stop trolling.
>
> I'm not trolling, stop being such a pussy.

       0   2   4   6   8   10

                        /
                       /
                      /
                     /
                    /
                   /
                  /
           TROLL-O-METER

Rik
-- 
Engineers don't grow up, they grow sideways.
http://www.surriel.com/		http://kernelnewbies.org/

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:20 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > I'm not trolling, stop being such a pussy.
>
>        0   2   4   6   8   10
>
>                         /
>                        /
>                       /
>                      /
>                     /
>                    /
>                   /
>            TROLL-O-METER

*snigger*  that's funny... ok... ok, ok.  I'll shut up now.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, James Buchanan wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:26 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> > Don't be naive, BSD people have to sign NDA's too if they want to
> > have decent drivers for cheap hardware.
>
> I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.

And as a consequence he doesn't have the same hardware support.

Of course, you're free to run openbsd on any machine that
supports it.  I'm sure you'll be able to put one together
from various supported pieces of hardware.

Rik
-- 
Engineers don't grow up, they grow sideways.
http://www.surriel.com/		http://kernelnewbies.org/

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:54 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.
>
> And as a consequence he doesn't have the same hardware support.

I don't use a Sparc.  I have a stock x86, all works well for me.

> Of course, you're free to run openbsd on any machine that
> supports it.  I'm sure you'll be able to put one together
> from various supported pieces of hardware.

I already have, an old cheap IBM PC/300PL, works nicely.  Need to 
learn more about how to use it as well as I use my GNU/Linux system 
though before I can replace Linux altogether on this machine.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, James Buchanan wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:54 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > > I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.
> >
> > And as a consequence he doesn't have the same hardware support.
>
> I don't use a Sparc.  I have a stock x86, all works well for me.

You don't need any device drivers ?   Curious...

> > Of course, you're free to run openbsd on any machine that
> > supports it.  I'm sure you'll be able to put one together
> > from various supported pieces of hardware.
>
> I already have, an old cheap IBM PC/300PL, works nicely.

Not everybody wants to run old hardware though.  Some people
actually have a need for performance and new hardware.

Rik
-- 
Engineers don't grow up, they grow sideways.
http://www.surriel.com/		http://kernelnewbies.org/

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:09 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, James Buchanan wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:54 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > > > I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.
> > >
> > > And as a consequence he doesn't have the same hardware support.
> >
> > I don't use a Sparc.  I have a stock x86, all works well for me.
>
> You don't need any device drivers ?   Curious...

I didn't say that, only that the drivers I am using are not written 
under an NDA.

> > > Of course, you're free to run openbsd on any machine that
> > > supports it.  I'm sure you'll be able to put one together
> > > from various supported pieces of hardware.
> >
> > I already have, an old cheap IBM PC/300PL, works nicely.
>
> Not everybody wants to run old hardware though.  Some people
> actually have a need for performance and new hardware.

I'm running new hardware as well, and it's possible to buy devices 
that don't need drivers that are written under an NDA or supplied 
binary only.  I do the extra checking, but hey, that's me.  I never 
said you had to.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, James Buchanan wrote:

> > Not everybody wants to run old hardware though.  Some people
> > actually have a need for performance and new hardware.
>
> I'm running new hardware as well, and it's possible to buy devices
> that don't need drivers that are written under an NDA or supplied
> binary only.  I do the extra checking, but hey, that's me.

No IDE disks or modern SCSI controllers in your machine ?

Rik
-- 
Engineers don't grow up, they grow sideways.
http://www.surriel.com/		http://kernelnewbies.org/

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Tomas Szepe]

> [riel@imladris.surriel.com]
> 
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, James Buchanan wrote:
> 
> > > Not everybody wants to run old hardware though.  Some people
> > > actually have a need for performance and new hardware.
> >
> > I'm running new hardware as well, and it's possible to buy devices
> > that don't need drivers that are written under an NDA or supplied
> > binary only.  I do the extra checking, but hey, that's me.
> 
> No IDE disks or modern SCSI controllers in your machine ?

Damn you're fast, Rik, I was just about to ask this.

-- 
Tomas Szepe <szepe@pinerecords.com>

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:19 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> No IDE disks or modern SCSI controllers in your machine ?

The ones I use are not forbidden to be seen by me, written under an 
NDA or otherwise.  No, no modern SCSI controllers.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Chris Friesen]

James Buchanan wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:19 am, Rik van Riel wrote:
> 
>>No IDE disks or modern SCSI controllers in your machine ?
>>
> 
> The ones I use are not forbidden to be seen by me, written under an 
> NDA or otherwise.  No, no modern SCSI controllers.

I think what you're missing is that many drivers are *written* under an 
NDA but then the resulting code is released under an open license.

You're free to use the resulting driver, but the writer can't talk about 
exactly how it works.

Chris

-- 
Chris Friesen                    | MailStop: 043/33/F10
Nortel Networks                  | work: (613) 765-0557
3500 Carling Avenue              | fax:  (613) 765-2986
Nepean, ON K2H 8E9 Canada        | email: cfriesen@nortelnetworks.com

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Dave Jones]

On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 09:53:07AM -0500, Chris Friesen wrote:
 > I think what you're missing is that many drivers are *written* under an 
 > NDA but then the resulting code is released under an open license.
 > 
 > You're free to use the resulting driver, but the writer can't talk about 
 > exactly how it works.
 
This last part varies between NDA/vendors.  Some of them are just simply
"These docs are just for you, read them, do what you will, just
 don't redistribute them in whole or in part".  Some are a little
more restricting but those are few and far between in my experience.

		Dave

-- 
| Dave Jones.        http://www.codemonkey.org.uk
| SuSE Labs

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Jeff Garzik]

On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 05:17:23PM +1100, James Buchanan wrote:
> I didn't say that, only that the drivers I am using are not written 
> under an NDA.

Here is a challenge, then:

When you install your OS of choice, please post a list of drivers you
are using, so we can point out the NDA'd portions.

	Jeff


P.S. I notice no responses to my messages.  I guess you have a problem
with facts, and truth...

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:22 am, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Here is a challenge, then:
>
> When you install your OS of choice, please post a list of drivers
> you are using, so we can point out the NDA'd portions.

There are really that many NDAs out there in free software land?  Tell 
me how many IDE drivers are written under an NDA.

> P.S. I notice no responses to my messages.  I guess you have a
> problem with facts, and truth...

No, where did you get this from?  I'm sure I posted a response to you, 
but I am having trouble keeping up with everything that's coming into 
my inbox.  Maybe I missed it.

Re: Linux kernel rant

[Jeff Garzik]

On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 04:42:31PM +1100, James Buchanan wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:26 am, Tomas Szepe wrote:
> > Don't be naive, BSD people have to sign NDA's too if they want to
> > have decent drivers for cheap hardware.
> 
> I'm not - Theo De Raadt refuses to sign them.

OpenBSD contains drivers _obviously_ written under NDA, just like every
other free BSD.  Theo probably imported these drivers from FreeBSD,
I would guess.

I pay attention to net drivers in all the BSD OS's, so if you know net
drivers and their vendors, these things are obvious ;-)

	Jeff

Re: Linux kernel rant

[James Buchanan]

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:02 am, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> OpenBSD contains drivers _obviously_ written under NDA, just like
> every other free BSD.  Theo probably imported these drivers from
> FreeBSD, I would guess.

True, I have recently checked some out, although I'm not up to date on 
everything there.

> I pay attention to net drivers in all the BSD OS's, so if you know
> net drivers and their vendors, these things are obvious ;-)

Hey yeah ;-)  I pay attention to things like USB drivers.  I couldn't 
get a driver for my DSL modem that came with my broadband connection, 
so I ditched my broadband connection and now use a crappy old 56K 
connection.  Hell, that's sticking by your principles, even if it's 
painful.  ;-)

Sometime in future, when I can afford that ADSL modem that doesn't 
need a binary only driver or one written under an NDA...