Re: BitBucket: GPL-ed KitBeeper clone

Mark Mielke
2003-04-09T01:51:01Z

Does it matter? If an 'open source guy' comes up with the idea
independently, having never had a copy of the 'closed source', then he
has proof that he came up with it originally (although he may not be
the first to have thought of it).

And who cares about "first"? How can you ever guarantee that somebody
didn't think of your idea "first"? Maybe aliens having been using B-Tree's
for billions of years.

It doesn't matter.

mark

On Wed, Apr 09, 2003 at 12:19:49AM +0100, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> Larry McVoy wrote about unreleased improvements to Bitkeeper:
> > [...] we're worried about the open source guys stealing them.
>
> Seriously, do you see it as "stealing" if someone mimics your best ideas?
>
> What if they believe they had the idea too, but you implemented it first..?
>
> Personally if someone releases a piece of software that contains an
> idea similar to one that I've had, and they did a great job of
> implementing or just plain explaining the idea, and they did it before
> I even started, I _feel_ deep in my gut that I've lost something due
> to their action.
>
> (Forget about philosophy and economics for a moment. This message is
> about gut feelings and psychology.)
>
> In other words, if someone releases a great implementation of an idea
> long before I would have done so, even if I would never have gotten
> around to it, I _feel_ much the same as if the idea had been stolen
> from me. They get the credit, I lost the opportunity for credit.
>
> This is obviously not a fair reflection on their great work - of
> course they deserve heaps of credit for their work. It stills feels
> painful though.
>
> This horrible feeling is much worse when the other person insists that
> they alone had the idea and I, if I ever do anything with it later,
> will be accused of copying their superior thinking - something that I
> sometimes cannot disprove.
>
> When that happens, not only is my opportunity for credit lost, my
> integrity is doubted as well.
>
> To avoid that horrible consequential feeling, it seems safest not to
> build too much on the ideas of others, lest I be accused of "stealing".
>
> While that does make me feel a bit better in some ways, it does not
> seem a good way to live when I take a more objective perspective.
> Also, it does not seem very great in terms of bettering society and
> other other-person-oriented ideals.
>
> That's why I prefer the idea of "sharing" ideas, and promoting that as
> a way of thinking about ideas, so that thay are not perceived as owned
> by one person or another. (Ironically, this is my response to painful
> feelings that I have due to a personal sense of certain ideas being
> owned by me but acted out by others).
>
> Although that does leave me feeling a little uneasy too, it is not
> such a horrible feeling as being on a knife-edge race to implement
> things just before the other person, just so I can be perceived as
> "the" originator of an idea. Another reason I don't like that kind of
> race is that if I win, how must the person I beat feel?
>
> Well, this wasn't meant to be a rant about my personal psychological
> issues but it has turned into one :) The point was to illustrate
> underlying reasons why at least one person on this list believes it is
> better - kinder, fairer - to think of building upon another person's
> brilliantly expressed ideas as "sharing", rather than "stealing".
>
> For me, the principle of open source vs. closed source flows from
> that. For me it has little to do with access to source. (I can
> reverse engineer a binary if necessary, for the time being). It's
> about permission, praise, encouragement, and ultimately happiness.
>
> Not that the issue is ever that simple.
>
> It also underlines the importance of granting credit where it's due -
> not just as a line in a copyright notice, but with full recognition of
> the work done to refine a difficult idea. And, Larry, you're right
> that years of hard work can be cloned in a few days. It does suck
> when someone does that and then takes all the credit for the result -
> whether that's personal or economic in form.
>
> I guess the economics of ideas, implementations and credit has plenty
> of maturing left to do.
>
> -- Jamie
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--
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