Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

Hi there.

I have a probably unusual question which is mainly directed to the
linux-kernel IDE driver developers due to their experience with IDE
disks.

I have a PC @home, which accumulates HDDs in it which die.

This Weekend my 120GB Maxtor begun to die with Uncorrectable Errors.
I thought "OK, another damn Quality Hard Drive" But half a year ago I
replaced a not so old 40GB MAxtor in it and before that a 20GB System
Disk and a WD800JB has already 6 Secors remapped (smartctl -a). My
friends call me the "Master of the HDD cemetary".

After that I realized, that 99% of my harddisk which die do this in that
PC. I have a K7S5A Mainboard in it with SiS chipset. Kernel IDE Driver
sis5513 is compiled in, UDMA switched on.

My question is, can a subtile Hardware error in the Mainboard exist so
that HDDs is written bullshit to into some sektors which is discovered
days or months later when reading/writing there?
Or can the Kernel provocate (in Hardware!) Uncorrectable errors with
software?
I used Kernel 2.4.20-acX and since 2.5.69-mmX this one.
Or do I have simply bad luck in buying HDDs?
They are mounted good, the Wires are accurately folded together, 1" air
above and under each disk, additional case fan...
It is my home server for mail/news/print/nfs and used as public ftp at
lan-partys 3 or 4 times a year. For this purpose (pub ftp) there are two
disks of three used with an LVM2 around all three. 
Statistically after each lan-party one drive dies. Not immedieately
though.

Any opinions? Similair Experiences? Software? Hardware? Bad Luck?

Regards, Konstantin Kletschke


-- 
2.6.0-test1-mm2
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 3:45, 20 users

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Lionel Bouton]

Konstantin Kletschke wrote the following on 10/20/2003 03:27 PM :

>Hi there.
>
>I have a probably unusual question which is mainly directed to the
>linux-kernel IDE driver developers due to their experience with IDE
>disks.
>
>I have a PC @home, which accumulates HDDs in it which die.
>
>This Weekend my 120GB Maxtor begun to die with Uncorrectable Errors.
>I thought "OK, another damn Quality Hard Drive" But half a year ago I
>replaced a not so old 40GB MAxtor in it and before that a 20GB System
>Disk and a WD800JB has already 6 Secors remapped (smartctl -a). My
>friends call me the "Master of the HDD cemetary".
>
>After that I realized, that 99% of my harddisk which die do this in that
>PC. I have a K7S5A Mainboard in it with SiS chipset. Kernel IDE Driver
>sis5513 is compiled in, UDMA switched on.
>  
>


When did you purchase it ? Better : can you find the revision (black on 
white sticker glued in the corner of the motherboard near the last PCI 
slot) ?

There were electrical defects with the earliest K7S5A revisions (I 
returned one myself). Rev 0, 1, 2 and 3 are affected, I don't remember 
for 4-6 but IIRC rev 7 and above aren't affected : I have a rev 5 or 7 
at home (don't remember which one it is) and it works perfectly.

LB.

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Meelis Roos]

KK> Any opinions? Similair Experiences? Software? Hardware? Bad Luck?

In my home computer there is a 6th hdd in 3 years. All didn't die but
most did. On culprit was probably the power supply - I measured its
voltage dropping significantly on some cdrom operations.

-- 
Meelis Roos

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 03:46:16PM +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
> 
> When did you purchase it ? Better : can you find the revision (black on 

IIRC it is revision 3 or older. IIRC I downloaded BIOS files for
revision 3.x or older, 1.3?

> There were electrical defects with the earliest K7S5A revisions (I 
> returned one myself). Rev 0, 1, 2 and 3 are affected, I don't remember 
> for 4-6 but IIRC rev 7 and above aren't affected : I have a rev 5 or 7 
> at home (don't remember which one it is) and it works perfectly.

Hm, I have the Board Revision whih also remembers its BIOS Settings once
after a while (once per month or so). Does that also belong to
"electrical defects"?

So should I buy a K7S5A Pro now. It eats my old school SDRAM, thats
why...

Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test1-mm2
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 27 min, 

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 05:17:22PM +0300, Meelis Roos wrote:

> In my home computer there is a 6th hdd in 3 years. All didn't die but
> most did. On culprit was probably the power supply - I measured its
> voltage dropping significantly on some cdrom operations.

And do after this modification last longer?

Hm, I use the cdrom very seldom in this PC, as Lionel Bouton pointed out
some K7S5As had electrical failures... I thought about PowerSuplly
already, threw this though away because there is only

The Motherboard
cdrom (hardly used)
512MB RAM
3 HDDs
old intel AGP Graphics Card, never used.

connected.

Can a bad Powersupply or weak mainboard create Uncorrectable Errors on
HDDs? Again only a question to experience of this community...

So should I buy a new board or a new Powersupply...

Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test1-mm2
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 32 min, 

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Lionel Bouton]

Konstantin Kletschke wrote the following on 10/20/2003 04:48 PM :

>
>Hm, I have the Board Revision whih also remembers its BIOS Settings once
>after a while (once per month or so). Does that also belong to
>"electrical defects"?
>  
>

Maybe... do you mean your CMOS settings are periodically reset ? In this 
case it usually is simply a worn-out battery.

>So should I buy a K7S5A Pro now. It eats my old school SDRAM, thats
>why...
>  
>

K7S5A Pro are dirt cheap these days, so it might be a good idea to buy a 
new one.

For the record, reallocated sectors are quite common with modern disks, 
I had some (3-4) on a one-year old 120Go Maxtor but the drive worked 
perfectly. You should install the smartmontools and run smartd 
configured to send you an e-mail each time a new defect is found. You 
have then one more opportunity to anticipate a drive going to fail by 
backuping and restoring on another drive.

Best regards,

-- 
Lionel Bouton - inet6
---------------------------------------------------------------------
   o              Siege social: 51, rue de Verdun - 92158 Suresnes
  /      _ __ _   Acces Bureaux: 33 rue Benoit Malon - 92150 Suresnes
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  Inetsys S.A.    Fax  +33 (0) 1 46 97 20 10
 

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Lionel Bouton]

Konstantin Kletschke wrote the following on 10/20/2003 04:53 PM :

>Can a bad Powersupply or weak mainboard create Uncorrectable Errors on
>HDDs? Again only a question to experience of this community...
>  
>

It certainly can temporarily (under load).

Try offloading some power strain by removing some peripherals (CD-ROM, 
non-mandatory disk drive) and see if it solves your problem.

I might be mistaken (don't know the exact behavior of drive electronics) 
but it seems unlikely that a bad PSU with underrated voltage could 
damage a drive (overrated voltage is another matter). Usually under spec 
PSUs fail to produce enough juice under load and the system simply 
becomes unstable.

Best regards,

-- 
Lionel Bouton - inet6
---------------------------------------------------------------------
   o              Siege social: 51, rue de Verdun - 92158 Suresnes
  /      _ __ _   Acces Bureaux: 33 rue Benoit Malon - 92150 Suresnes
 / /\  /_  / /_   France
 \/  \/_  / /_/   Tel. +33 (0) 1 41 44 85 36
  Inetsys S.A.    Fax  +33 (0) 1 46 97 20 10
 

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 05:59:13PM +0300, Meelis Roos wrote:
> 
> Bad power supply can breaks disks like this. Bad mainborad or ide

OK, nice to know.

> cabling usually gives just CRC errors (like Abit KT7).

It is definately hardware.

> > So should I buy a new board or a new Powersupply...
> 
> Test it with a tester first, I would suggest.

You wont get fast transient power leakage with conventional
measure-tools...

You know what? I exchange Board AND PSU, I am too old for these copy
actions with "UncorrectableError" all over my screen...
One of these devices causes my HDDs break definately if I am seeing that
right here...
(my english becomes german, *lol*)

Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test1-mm2
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 56 min, 

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 05:17:16PM +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
> 
> Try offloading some power strain by removing some peripherals (CD-ROM, 
> non-mandatory disk drive) and see if it solves your problem.

The risk ist too high, may be the PSU has a dry capacitor or
whatsoever and the next drive breakes in two month with cdrom disabled.
Because, there is only a CDROM Drive which could be disabled. No other
components, no fat Graphics...

> PSUs fail to produce enough juice under load and the system simply 
> becomes unstable.

Well, the computer is most stable, it freezes sometimes, but I don't
know if that was at the last lanparty (April) or thtereafter.

But as said, I am "convinced" and head to the store now.
The machine is NOT relieable to me anymore...

Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test1-mm2
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 1:19, 6 users

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 04:06:50PM +0200, Eric Valette wrote:
> I have killed at least 10 disks myself and most of the time, electrical 
> problems were at the root cause (+ some series of known to be defective 
> WD)...

Which electrical Problems? When mounting them (ESD) or afterwards?

I see, it was a good Idea to ask here, I head to the shop so I can trust
the machine afterward and we will know more in a year...

Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test1-mm2
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 1:31, 7 users

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

* Lionel Bouton <Lionel.Bouton@inet6.fr> [Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 05:08:14PM +0200]:
> 
> Maybe... do you mean your CMOS settings are periodically reset ? In this 
> case it usually is simply a worn-out battery.

No, I replaced it already, it is also a known K7S5A bug, once a month it
looses CMOS. BTW, near the last PCI Slot was a little square Button
labeled with a "5".

> K7S5A Pro are dirt cheap these days, so it might be a good idea to buy a 
> new one.

Thats it, bought Board and PSU, for 55EUR...

> perfectly. You should install the smartmontools and run smartd 
> configured to send you an e-mail each time a new defect is found. You 

Yes, absolutely...

Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test6-mm4
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 4:06, 8 users

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[jw schultz]

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 05:17:16PM +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
> Konstantin Kletschke wrote the following on 10/20/2003 04:53 PM :
> 
> >Can a bad Powersupply or weak mainboard create Uncorrectable Errors on
> >HDDs? Again only a question to experience of this community...
> > 
> >
> 
> It certainly can temporarily (under load).
> 
> Try offloading some power strain by removing some peripherals (CD-ROM, 
> non-mandatory disk drive) and see if it solves your problem.
> 
> I might be mistaken (don't know the exact behavior of drive electronics) 
> but it seems unlikely that a bad PSU with underrated voltage could 
> damage a drive (overrated voltage is another matter). Usually under spec 
> PSUs fail to produce enough juice under load and the system simply 
> becomes unstable.

I don't know the specific drive electronics either.
It has also been many years since i studied the electrical
side of this stuff.

Undervolt, or voltage sag under load, is worse than
overvolt.  Overvolt can be caught with fuses or voltage
regulators neither of which can do aught with an undervolt.
If overvolt does get through things run just a bit warmer.

Undervolt on the other hand can cause VCC to drop to the
level where it can no longer represent a logic high value
but is instead in the range where it is neither 0 nor 1 and
logic gates start spending too much time in the transition
range where they act like amplifiers.  When that happens not
only do you get data corruption but things start heating up
big-time and the current drain goes way up.

-- 
________________________________________________________________
	J.W. Schultz            Pegasystems Technologies
	email address:		jw@pegasys.ws

		Remember Cernan and Schmitt

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

* Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de> [Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 11:54:01PM +0200]:
> 
> > K7S5A Pro are dirt cheap these days, so it might be a good idea to buy a 
> > new one.
> 
> Thats it, bought Board and PSU, for 55EUR...

While at this point...

The new K7S5A Pro behaves strange.

When lilo comes up, it gets keyboard input containing of 4-6 lines
"t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:"...
When hitting backspace whole line gets cleared, enter boots default then.
WTF?
even with no keyboard plugged in. My first thought was disabling
"usb-keyboard support for dos" but... only a usb printer, ethernet and
serial modem are plugged in...

Regards, Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test6-mm4
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
GPG KeyID EF62FCEF
Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
keulator.homelinux.org up 5:15, 7 users

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Ian Hastie]

On Tuesday 21 Oct 2003 00:05, Konstantin Kletschke wrote:
> The new K7S5A Pro behaves strange.
>
> When lilo comes up, it gets keyboard input containing of 4-6 lines
> "t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:"...
> When hitting backspace whole line gets cleared, enter boots default then.
> WTF?
> even with no keyboard plugged in. My first thought was disabling
> "usb-keyboard support for dos" but... only a usb printer, ethernet and
> serial modem are plugged in...

Kernel configuration optins aren't going to affect LILO unless it's some 
strange data being left over from before reboot.  Complete guess, but could 
it be some kind of BIOS test data that isn't getting cleared?

-- 
Ian.

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Ian Hastie]

On Tuesday 21 Oct 2003 02:03, Ian Hastie wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 Oct 2003 00:05, Konstantin Kletschke wrote:
> > The new K7S5A Pro behaves strange.
> >
> > When lilo comes up, it gets keyboard input containing of 4-6 lines
> > "t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:t:"...
> > When hitting backspace whole line gets cleared, enter boots default then.
> > WTF?
> > even with no keyboard plugged in. My first thought was disabling
> > "usb-keyboard support for dos" but... only a usb printer, ethernet and
> > serial modem are plugged in...
>
> Kernel configuration optins aren't going to affect LILO

Oh well. *8}  It's that funny thing called the BIOS isn't it.  Doh!!

: USB Function for DOS
: Enable this item if you plan to use the USB ports on this mainboard in a DOS
: environment.

Well assuming it implies some kind of 16bit related access mode then I suppose 
it should be disabled anyway.  However I didn't see a specific "usb-keyboard 
support for dos" in the manual.  What happens if you disable "USB Function 
Support" completely?

-- 
Ian.

Re: Uncorrectable Error on IDE, significant accumulation

[Konstantin Kletschke]

* Ian Hastie <ianh@iahastie.clara.net> [Tue, Oct 21, 2003 at 08:23:58PM +0100]:
> 
> : USB Function for DOS
> : Enable this item if you plan to use the USB ports on this mainboard in a DOS
> : environment.
> 
> Well assuming it implies some kind of 16bit related access mode then I suppose 
> it should be disabled anyway.  However I didn't see a specific "usb-keyboard 
> support for dos" in the manual.  What happens if you disable "USB Function 
> Support" completely?

I meant your quoted excerpt. I did not remember the correct spelling of
the option, remembered only something like "USB function for dos".

I thought also it must be some garbage left from BIOS or so, but when using
arrow keys to select another item, lilo puts something like
"2.6.0-test6-mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4mm4"...
onto the screen. One backspace erases whole 5 lines.

I flashed BIOS cause I thought ECS might have fixed it (if it is its
fault) from January version to august version, same error.

I was fed up now and installed grub, which works like a charme.

Well, completely nokernel issue and I should write a bug report to the
lilo folks...

Or is it a BIOS error still which grub copes around with?

Regards, Konsti

-- 
2.6.0-test6-mm4
Konstantin Kletschke <konsti@ludenkalle.de>, <konsti@ku-gbr.de>
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Fingerprint: 13C9 B16B 9844 EC15 CC2E  A080 1E69 3FDA EF62 FCEF
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