From: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
Cc: Linux kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: stty utf8
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:05:01 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20040216150501.GC16658@mail.shareable.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0402141827200.14025@home.osdl.org>
Linus Torvalds wrote:
> People understand the problem. And UTF-8 is the solution.
Linus, I agree 100%.
My own filesystems have UTF-8 file names, of course.
There are still practical problems, two of which stand out:
1. Just because you hope a filesystem is UTF-8, does not preclude
readdir() from returning non-UTF-8 names. (These are far too
easy to create by accident).
Because of that, programs which interpret the result of
readdir() as text, yet are expected to handle any name without
silently rejecting them or aborting, are forced into strange
compromises which break basic expectations.
Spot the bug in this perl script:
perl -e 'for (glob "*") { rename $_, "ņi-".$_ or die "rename: $!\n"; }'
(NB: The prefix string is N WITH CEDILLA followed by "i-").
(Hint: it mangles perfectly fine non-ASCII file names).
Perl has no perfect behaviour to offer, because what should that
behaviour be if readdir() might return a non-UTF-8 byte sequence
as a name?
2. Terminals are not all UTF-8, and some never will be.
So when someone types something like this on a non-UTF-8
terminal, they get non-UTF-8 filename:
vi el-niño.txt
It isn't just a problem of display. Now you have created a
filename which isn't valid UTF-8, and GUI programs may complain,
perhaps refusing to let you select the file.
Furthermore, how exactly do you expect a user to use UTF-8 on
the filesystem when their terminal is not (or sometimes is not)
using UTF-8?
==> This problem would be very nicely solved with an additional
terminal flag. We have "stty ocrnl", "onlcr", "igncr" etc. to
translate between terminal line endings and the unix convention of
LF at the end of each line. Why not create "stty utf8" so that
non-UTF-8 terminals and UTF-8 terminals alike can work with a
Linux convention that all programs enter and display UTF-8? It
would simplify a lot of things.
-- Jamie
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2004-02-16 15:05 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 124+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <04Feb13.163954est.41760@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca>
2004-02-14 14:27 ` JFS default behavior Nicolas Mailhot
2004-02-14 15:40 ` viro
2004-02-14 17:47 ` Nicolas Mailhot
2004-02-14 17:59 ` Nicolas Mailhot
2004-02-14 23:06 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-14 23:29 ` viro
2004-02-15 0:07 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-15 2:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-15 3:33 ` Matthias Urlichs
2004-02-15 4:04 ` viro
2004-02-15 9:48 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-15 18:26 ` yodaiken
2004-02-18 2:48 ` Unicode normalization (userspace issue, but what the heck) H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-20 9:48 ` Matthias Urlichs
2004-02-16 15:05 ` Jamie Lokier [this message]
2004-02-16 16:10 ` stty utf8 Gerd Knorr
2004-02-16 22:03 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-16 22:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-16 22:04 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-16 18:36 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API (was: Re: JFS default behavior) Marc Lehmann
2004-02-16 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-16 19:26 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API Jeff Garzik
2004-02-16 19:48 ` John Bradford
2004-02-16 19:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-16 20:20 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-16 20:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-18 2:49 ` Rob Landley
2004-02-16 20:21 ` bert hubert
2004-02-16 20:33 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-18 2:58 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 3:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-18 3:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 3:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-18 5:30 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 10:29 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-18 11:49 ` Tomas Szepe
2004-02-18 11:59 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-18 12:05 ` Tomas Szepe
2004-02-18 12:34 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-18 15:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-18 19:47 ` Tomas Szepe
2004-02-18 20:01 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 21:22 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-18 21:42 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 11:24 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-18 11:33 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-18 16:47 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 19:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-18 20:08 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-18 7:25 ` bert hubert
2004-02-16 20:16 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-16 20:20 ` Jeff Garzik
2004-02-16 21:10 ` viro
2004-02-17 7:18 ` jw schultz
2004-02-17 7:42 ` Nick Piggin
2004-02-16 20:03 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API (was: Re: JFS default behavior) Marc Lehmann
2004-02-16 20:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-16 20:58 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-17 14:12 ` Dave Kleikamp
2004-02-16 22:26 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-16 22:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-16 22:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 13:15 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 7:14 ` Lehmann
2004-02-17 11:20 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API Helge Hafting
2004-02-17 15:56 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API (was: Re: JFS default behavior) Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <20040217161111.GE8231@schmorp.de>
2004-02-17 16:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 16:46 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 19:00 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API Måns Rullgård
2004-02-17 20:57 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 21:06 ` Alex Belits
2004-02-17 21:47 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-22 15:32 ` Eric W. Biederman
2004-02-22 16:28 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-22 21:53 ` Eric W. Biederman
2004-02-18 7:23 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-17 21:23 ` Matthew Kirkwood
2004-02-18 13:11 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API (was: Re: JFS default behavior) Matthew Garrett
2004-02-17 16:52 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-17 16:54 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API Stefan Smietanowski
2004-02-18 1:27 ` Hans Reiser
2004-02-18 2:08 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-18 11:06 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 20:37 ` UTF-8 practically vs. theoretically in the VFS API (was: Re: JFS default behavior) Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-17 16:36 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 17:52 ` viro
2004-02-17 19:29 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 19:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 20:30 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 20:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 21:17 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 19:51 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 19:53 ` viro
2004-02-17 20:35 ` John Bradford
2004-02-17 20:40 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 20:50 ` John Bradford
2004-02-17 21:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 21:16 ` John Bradford
2004-02-17 21:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-18 0:52 ` John Bradford
2004-02-17 22:50 ` Robin Rosenberg
2004-02-18 6:48 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-17 20:47 ` viro
2004-02-17 20:53 ` John Bradford
2004-02-17 20:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 21:06 ` John Bradford
2004-02-17 21:42 ` Alex Belits
2004-02-18 6:56 ` Marc Lehmann
2004-02-18 20:37 ` Alex Belits
2004-02-18 3:11 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-17 20:38 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-18 3:07 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-21 13:54 ` Pavel Machek
2004-02-22 20:09 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-02-17 1:24 ` Alex Belits
2004-02-17 21:09 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-17 21:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-02-17 22:19 ` Alex Belits
2004-02-17 22:59 stty utf8 Andries.Brouwer
2004-02-17 23:15 ` Linus Torvalds
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2004-02-19 18:53 Clayton Weaver
2004-02-20 0:13 ` Jamie Lokier
2004-02-20 20:19 Markus Kuhn
2004-02-20 20:57 Clayton Weaver
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