Re: thoughts on kernel security issues

[Marek Habersack <grendel@caudium.net>]

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On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 11:50:04AM -0800, Chris Wright scribbled:
> * Marek Habersack (grendel@caudium.net) wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 03:36:27PM +0000, Alan Cox scribbled:
> > > On Mer, 2005-01-12 at 17:42, Marcelo Tosatti wrote:
> > > > The kernel security list must be higher in hierarchy than vendorsec.
> > > > 
> > > > Any information sent to vendorsec must be sent immediately for the kernel
> > > > security list and discussed there.
> > > 
> > > We cannot do this without the reporters permission. Often we get
> > I think I don't understand that. A reporter doesn't "own" the bug - not the
> > copyright, not the code, so how come they can own the fix/report?
> 
> It's not about ownership.  It's about disclosure and common sense.
> If someone reports something to you in private, and you disclose it
> publically (or even privately to someone else) without first discussing
> that with them, you'll lose their confidence.  Consequently they won't
> be so kind to give you forewarning next time.
I understand that, but I don't see a point in holding the fixes back for the
majority of people (since the vendors on vendor-sec are a minority and I
suspect that more people run self-compiled kernels on their servers than the
vendor kernels, I might be wrong on that). If there is a list that's at
least half-open (i.e. invitation required, but no CV required :) then there
is no issue of confidence, is there? And with such list, everybody has
equal chances - bad, good and the ugly too. Maybe my logic is flawed, but
that's how I see it - the linux kernel is a piece of open code, accessible
to all, with all its features, bugs, flaws. So, if the code is open, the
reports about the code security/bugs should be as open, together with fixes,
from the day one of finding the bug. Otherwise, if we have the scenario when
the vendor-sec members are informed about a bug+fix 2 months earlier and the
vulnerability+fix are disclosed 2 months later, then this is creating a
situation where not everybody has equal chances of reacting to the bug. As I
wrote earlier, that puts the folks using non-vendor kernels way behind both
the vendors _and_ the bad guys - since the latter have both the
vulnerability, the fix _and_ (usually) the exploit (or they can come up with
it in a matter of hours). For me it's all about equal chances in reacting to
the security issues. Again, I might be totally wrong in my reasoning, feel
free to correct me.

> > > material that even the list isn't allowed to directly see only by
> > > contacting the relevant bodies directly as well. The list then just
> > > serves as a "foo should have told you about issue X" notification.
> > This sounds crazy. I understand that this may happen with proprietary
> > software, or software that is made/supported by a company but otherwise opensource
> > (like OpenOffice, for instance), but the kernel?
> 
> Licensing is irrelevant.  Like it or not, the person who is discovering
> the bugs has some say in how you deal with the information.  It's in our
> best interest to work nicely with these folks, not marginalize them.
It's not about marginalizing, because by requesting that their report is
kept secret for a while and known only to a small bunch of people, you could
say they are marginalizing us, the majority of people who use the linux
kernel (us - those who aren't on the vendor-sec list). It's, again IMHO,
about equal chances. More and more often it seems that security advisories
and releases are treated as an asset for security companies, not a common
good/knowledge. And that's pretty sad...

regards,

marek

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