remove __read_mostly?

remove __read_mostly?

[Andrew Morton]

I'm thinking we should remove __read_mostly.

Because if we use this everywhere where it's supposed to be used, we end up
with .bss and .data 100% populated with write-often variables, packed
closely together.  The cachelines will really flying around.

IOW: __read_mostly optimises read-mostly variables and pessimises
write-often variables.

We want something which optimises both read-mostly and write-often storage.
 We do that by marking the write-often variables with
__cacheline_aligned_in_smp.

OK?

[Problem is, I don't think any of the make-foo-__read_mostly patches
actually identified _which_ write-often variables were affecting `foo', so
we'll be back to square one.]

[Actually, we should do

	#define __write_often __cacheline_aligned_in_smp

and use __write_often

a) for documentation and

b) so the optimisation can be centrally turned off, for space
   optimisation or for performance validation.]

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Ravikiran G Thirumalai]

On Sun, Jun 25, 2006 at 11:57:36AM -0700, Andrew Morton wrote:
> 
> I'm thinking we should remove __read_mostly.
> 
> Because if we use this everywhere where it's supposed to be used, we end up
> with .bss and .data 100% populated with write-often variables, packed
> closely together.  The cachelines will really flying around.
> 
> IOW: __read_mostly optimises read-mostly variables and pessimises
> write-often variables.
> 
> We want something which optimises both read-mostly and write-often storage.
>  We do that by marking the write-often variables with
> __cacheline_aligned_in_smp.

We already mark write often structures with __cacheline_aligned_in_smp.

The idea behind __read_mostly is to separate variables like cpu maps,
bootcpuinfo etc which are written to very very rarely -- during 
initialization/hot-plugging, but read quite often something like ~100 % read
ratio.  They might not be sharing the cacheline with a 
variable which is not as frequently written to, to mark 
__cacheline_aligned_in_smp, but still, these often read variables would be 
invalidated in cache every time there is a write on these other variables.  
Considering that there are quite a few structures which are read often,
(like cpu maps, cpu info, node to cpu maps etc) it made sense to place them 
in a separate section.

When we mark  variables __read_mostly, it doesn't mean all that is left in
.bss and .data is write mostly.  Surely the rest of .data and .bss which
do not qualify for ~100% read would not be ~100% write/RMW.  We would have 
variables which experience varying ratio of reads and writes.

So as I see it the current scheme of thing is 
1. If a variable is written quite often -- mark __cacheline_aligned_in_smp.
2. If a variable is read quite often .. something like 99:1 read -- mark them
   __read_mostly

> 
> OK?
> 
> [Problem is, I don't think any of the make-foo-__read_mostly patches
> actually identified _which_ write-often variables were affecting `foo', so
> we'll be back to square one.]

Most of the variables we marked as __read_mostly were ones we were seeing
inter-node transfers for read, when we shouldn't be seeing any -- because
they are just written to once during bootup.  And it did not make sense to 
mark the other writers on the inter-node cacheline __cacheline_aligned_in_smp, 
since it would mean a bloat of 128-4096 bytes depending on the arch, and
those variables were not written often enough to warrant padding. A few not
so-often-written variables on the same cacheline would mean these read
mostly variables are always being invalidated.

> 
> [Actually, we should do
> 
> 	#define __write_often __cacheline_aligned_in_smp
> 
> and use __write_often
> 
> a) for documentation and
> 
> b) so the optimisation can be centrally turned off, for space
>    optimisation or for performance validation.]
> 

Sure, we can change users of __cacheline_aligned_in_smp to __write_often and
change the section to .data.write_mostly from .data.cacheline_aligned for 
readability sake.  But, IMHO we do need the __read_mostly section for variables
which experience near 100% read access.  I cannot see any negative aspects of
having a separate read mostly section as there is no padding or bloating
involved.  Granted, we might not see performance difference with some builds
due to the compiler/linker placement / code changes, but this might
resurface later with a newer build/code changes.

Thanks,
Kiran

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 11:57 -0700, Andrew Morton wrote:
> I'm thinking we should remove __read_mostly.
> 
> Because if we use this everywhere where it's supposed to be used, we end up
> with .bss and .data 100% populated with write-often variables, packed
> closely together.  The cachelines will really flying around.


one thing we could/should do is have a "written during boot only"
section; which we then can mark read only as well :)

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Arjan van de Ven]

> Because if we use this everywhere where it's supposed to be used, we end up
> with .bss and .data 100% populated with write-often variables, packed
> closely together.  The cachelines will really flying around.

this argument is true if you have unrelated data together; however if
related data is together than suddenly you improve and increase cache
density....

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Christoph Lameter]

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Andrew Morton wrote:

> I'm thinking we should remove __read_mostly.
> 
> Because if we use this everywhere where it's supposed to be used, we end up
> with .bss and .data 100% populated with write-often variables, packed
> closely together.  The cachelines will really flying around.

What we really want is a write-often variable in a cacheline combined with 
infrequently read and write data. However, data that is frequently read 
(that is __read_mostly) would still need to be in a separate section.

> IOW: __read_mostly optimises read-mostly variables and pessimises
> write-often variables.
> 
> We want something which optimises both read-mostly and write-often storage.
>  We do that by marking the write-often variables with
> __cacheline_aligned_in_smp.
> 
> OK?

I think we would want to group write-often variables with infrequently 
used variable. But how does one convince the linker to doing that?

I agree that there is a problem with shift frequently written variables 
together which may in itself cause ill effects. So __read_mostly should 
only be used when we have identified real cacheline sharing problems and 
real cache hot variables may have to be put in a separate cacheline for 
itself. I think we already do that and that is at least the way I have 
handled it. Too many __read_mostly kill the whole point of the exercise.

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Christoph Lameter]

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Arjan van de Ven wrote:

> On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 11:57 -0700, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > I'm thinking we should remove __read_mostly.
> > 
> > Because if we use this everywhere where it's supposed to be used, we end up
> > with .bss and .data 100% populated with write-often variables, packed
> > closely together.  The cachelines will really flying around.
> 
> 
> one thing we could/should do is have a "written during boot only"
> section; which we then can mark read only as well :)

To replicate an IRIX idea:

We could have section with variables that can only be modified by special 
command. F.e.

enable_write_to_most_read_section()
<change variable>
disable_write_to_most_read_section()


This section could be a per cpu section that would be replicated
to all nodes on the system on disable_write_to_most_read_section().
That would mean that critical read only data would be node local.

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Paul Jackson]

Ravikiran wrote:
> The idea behind __read_mostly is to separate variables like cpu maps,
> bootcpuinfo etc which are written to very very rarely -- during 
> initialization/hot-plugging, but read quite often something like ~100 % read
> ratio.  

So these variables are __read_hot_write_cold?

In other words, the name __read_mostly is a little misleading, in my
book.  That name only suggests read much more than written.  In your
words:

    something like 99:1 read

It doesn't state that the variable is so "read hot", it is worth keeping
off "write hot" cache lines.

Let's say for example we have a variable is accessed only once per
hour, and that this access is always a read except once a week (once
every 168 hours) when it is a write.

I would not mark that variable __read_mostly, even though it passed
your 99:1 test.  That variable is read_cold_write_evencolder.  It's an
ideal candidate for the canon fodder that we use to fill up the rest
of a cache line that has a hot variable.

If Andrew's suggestion to remove __read_mostly doesn't fly, then I'd
vote for a name change:

  __read_mostly ==> __read_hot_write_cold

I think we want to identify the hottest memory words, keeping them
on separate cache lines, except that __read_hot_write_cold words can
share cache lines with each other.

A given cache line would have at most one hot write word, or one or
more read hot, write cold words.

-- 
                  I won't rest till it's the best ...
                  Programmer, Linux Scalability
                  Paul Jackson <pj@sgi.com> 1.925.600.0401

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Christoph Lameter]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Paul Jackson wrote:

> In other words, the name __read_mostly is a little misleading, in my
> book.  That name only suggests read much more than written.  In your
> words:
> 
>     something like 99:1 read


99:1 may be too small a ratio. 

A read_mostly marked variable should be changed rarely (meaning is 
is extremely unlikely that his is going to change) but read frequently.

F.e. configuration data for timer operations, number of possible 
processors and stuff like that.

If we would make the operation to write to the read_mostly section more 
expensive (by f.e. replicating the data per node) then this would hold off 
the uses that are changing too frequently.

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Paul Jackson]

Christoph wrote:
> 99:1 may be too small a ratio.

Could well be.  I was just quoting Ravikiran's number.  I suspect he
was using the number loosely, not as a precise value.


> A read_mostly marked variable should be changed rarely (meaning is 
> is extremely unlikely that his is going to change) but read frequently.

Yes - well said.

-- 
                  I won't rest till it's the best ...
                  Programmer, Linux Scalability
                  Paul Jackson <pj@sgi.com> 1.925.600.0401

Re: remove __read_mostly?

[Ravikiran G Thirumalai]

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 12:11:24PM -0700, Paul Jackson wrote:
> Christoph wrote:
> > 99:1 may be too small a ratio.
> 
> Could well be.  I was just quoting Ravikiran's number.  I suspect he
> was using the number loosely, not as a precise value.

Yes I was using it loosely.  I also mentioned ~100% read which is probably
more accurate :).  It is indeed "read hot write cold".  Writes on these
variables are typically during bootup/subsystem initialization/hot plug
events.

Thanks,
Kiran