another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

The old fart is back again. :)

I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found that 
while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4, I do 
not have any other functioning audio, including the kde sound effects I 
normally get.  xmms and tvtime are mute, as are the firefox plugins to 
play videos from the network. 2.6.17.8 and below works great yet.

So whats the fix?

-- 
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules.  I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Sergei Steshenko]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:

> Greetings;
> 
> The old fart is back again. :)
> 
> I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found that 
> while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4, I do 
> not have any other functioning audio, including the kde sound effects I 
> normally get.  xmms and tvtime are mute, as are the firefox plugins to 
> play videos from the network. 2.6.17.8 and below works great yet.
> 
> So whats the fix?
> 


Demand stable ABI.

-- 
Visit my http://appsfromscratch.berlios.de/ open source project.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Lee Revell]

On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 18:46 +0300, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
> Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> > Greetings;
> > 
> > The old fart is back again. :)
> > 
> > I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found that 
> > while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4, I do 
> > not have any other functioning audio, including the kde sound effects I 
> > normally get.  xmms and tvtime are mute, as are the firefox plugins to 
> > play videos from the network. 2.6.17.8 and below works great yet.
> > 
> > So whats the fix?
> > 
> 
> 
> Demand stable ABI.
> 

Stable ABI has nothing to do with this, it's called "a bug".

Lee

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Benoit Fouet]

hi,

Sergei Steshenko wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
>Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Greetings;
>>
>>The old fart is back again. :)
>>
>>I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found that 
>>while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4, I do 
>>not have any other functioning audio, including the kde sound effects I 
>>normally get.  xmms and tvtime are mute, as are the firefox plugins to 
>>play videos from the network. 2.6.17.8 and below works great yet.
>>
>>So whats the fix?
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>Demand stable ABI.
>
>  
>
sorry for the noise, but it's been a while now since i began reading
mails from this list, and i must admit i don't always (never?) see the
point of such messages...
if you can help me understand, i'll be very happy to get something more
detailed from you...

thanks,

-- Ben

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Sam Ravnborg]

On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 05:56:57PM +0200, Benoit Fouet wrote:
> >
> >Demand stable ABI.
> >
> >  
> >
> sorry for the noise, but it's been a while now since i began reading
> mails from this list, and i must admit i don't always (never?) see the
> point of such messages...
> if you can help me understand, i'll be very happy to get something more
> detailed from you...
Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt

	Sam

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Sergei Steshenko]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:00:43 +0200
Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 05:56:57PM +0200, Benoit Fouet wrote:
> > >
> > >Demand stable ABI.
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > sorry for the noise, but it's been a while now since i began reading
> > mails from this list, and i must admit i don't always (never?) see the
> > point of such messages...
> > if you can help me understand, i'll be very happy to get something more
> > detailed from you...
> Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
> 
> 	Sam
> 

I love senselessness and technical incompetence of the document.

As I was taught at school, to prove that a statement is wrong one
has to prove that it is wrong once.

Regardless of what the document says stable ABI can be achieved
today - run a chosen Linux kernel version + chosen ALSA version under XEN or
similar, and assign sound card to these (chosen Linux kernel version +
chosen ALSA version).

Redirect sound ('ncat' + friends) to this (chosen Linux kernel version +
chosen ALSA version) from your kernel in which developers refuse
to ensure stable ABI.

Because of the chosen (kernel+ALSA) you have stable ABI regardless
of what Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt says and ALSA + kernel
developers think.

--Sergei.

-- 
Visit my http://appsfromscratch.berlios.de/ open source project.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Sam Ravnborg]

On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 07:17:48PM +0300, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:00:43 +0200
> Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 05:56:57PM +0200, Benoit Fouet wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Demand stable ABI.
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > sorry for the noise, but it's been a while now since i began reading
> > > mails from this list, and i must admit i don't always (never?) see the
> > > point of such messages...
> > > if you can help me understand, i'll be very happy to get something more
> > > detailed from you...
> > Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
> > 
> > 	Sam
> > 
> 
> I love senselessness and technical incompetence of the document.
> 
> As I was taught at school, to prove that a statement is wrong one
> has to prove that it is wrong once.
> 
> Regardless of what the document says stable ABI can be achieved
> today - run a chosen Linux kernel version + chosen ALSA version under XEN or
> similar, and assign sound card to these (chosen Linux kernel version +
> chosen ALSA version).
Your focus is on user<->kernel API. The document is about kernel
internal API. Thats two different things and it was not clear if the
first poster was pointing at one or the other.

user<->kernel API is supposed to be stable - if ALSA breaks that then
ALSA has something to fix.

	Sam

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On 8/9/06, Sergei Steshenko <steshenko_sergei@list.ru> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:00:43 +0200
> Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 05:56:57PM +0200, Benoit Fouet wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Demand stable ABI.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > sorry for the noise, but it's been a while now since i began reading
> > > mails from this list, and i must admit i don't always (never?) see the
> > > point of such messages...
> > > if you can help me understand, i'll be very happy to get something more
> > > detailed from you...
> > Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
> >
> >       Sam
> >
>
> I love senselessness and technical incompetence of the document.
>
> As I was taught at school, to prove that a statement is wrong one
> has to prove that it is wrong once.
>

Yep, the only trick is that you need a valid proof ;)

> Regardless of what the document says stable ABI can be achieved
> today - run a chosen Linux kernel version + chosen ALSA version under XEN or
> similar, and assign sound card to these (chosen Linux kernel version +
> chosen ALSA version).
>
> Redirect sound ('ncat' + friends) to this (chosen Linux kernel version +
> chosen ALSA version) from your kernel in which developers refuse
> to ensure stable ABI.
>
> Because of the chosen (kernel+ALSA) you have stable ABI regardless
> of what Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt says and ALSA + kernel
> developers think.
>

You are confused. By your logic you do not need XEN at all - just take
a kernel version + alsa and never change/update it - and viola!
"stable" ABI.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Sergei Steshenko]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:36:23 -0400
"Dmitry Torokhov" <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/9/06, Sergei Steshenko <steshenko_sergei@list.ru> wrote:
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:00:43 +0200
> > Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 05:56:57PM +0200, Benoit Fouet wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >Demand stable ABI.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > sorry for the noise, but it's been a while now since i began reading
> > > > mails from this list, and i must admit i don't always (never?) see the
> > > > point of such messages...
> > > > if you can help me understand, i'll be very happy to get something more
> > > > detailed from you...
> > > Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
> > >
> > >       Sam
> > >
> >
> > I love senselessness and technical incompetence of the document.
> >
> > As I was taught at school, to prove that a statement is wrong one
> > has to prove that it is wrong once.
> >
> 
> Yep, the only trick is that you need a valid proof ;)
> 
> > Regardless of what the document says stable ABI can be achieved
> > today - run a chosen Linux kernel version + chosen ALSA version under XEN or
> > similar, and assign sound card to these (chosen Linux kernel version +
> > chosen ALSA version).
> >
> > Redirect sound ('ncat' + friends) to this (chosen Linux kernel version +
> > chosen ALSA version) from your kernel in which developers refuse
> > to ensure stable ABI.
> >
> > Because of the chosen (kernel+ALSA) you have stable ABI regardless
> > of what Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt says and ALSA + kernel
> > developers think.
> >
> 
> You are confused. By your logic you do not need XEN at all - just take
> a kernel version + alsa and never change/update it - and viola!
> "stable" ABI.
> 

I simply described how one ABI (ALSA <-> kernel in this case) can
be stabilized, while new non-ALSA related features (and potentially
unstable ABI) can still be had.

If computer has enough resources, practically every ABI can be
stabilized (if desired) this way - as long as the ABI is PCI slot
related.

That is, I can, for example, stabilize ALSA-kernel interface choosing
(ALSA 1.0.11 + kernel 2.6.17) and I can stabilize TV card interface
using (whatever v4l + kernel 2.6.18), etc,

--Sergei.
-- 
Visit my http://appsfromscratch.berlios.de/ open source project.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On 8/9/06, Sergei Steshenko <steshenko_sergei@list.ru> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:36:23 -0400
> "Dmitry Torokhov" <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You are confused. By your logic you do not need XEN at all - just take
> > a kernel version + alsa and never change/update it - and viola!
> > "stable" ABI.
> >
>
> I simply described how one ABI (ALSA <-> kernel in this case) can
> be stabilized, while new non-ALSA related features (and potentially
> unstable ABI) can still be had.
>
> If computer has enough resources, practically every ABI can be
> stabilized (if desired) this way - as long as the ABI is PCI slot
> related.
>

And in extreme case once you "stablizie" everything you end up with a
system that is not upgradeable at all.

> That is, I can, for example, stabilize ALSA-kernel interface choosing
> (ALSA 1.0.11 + kernel 2.6.17) and I can stabilize TV card interface
> using (whatever v4l + kernel 2.6.18), etc,
>

But you are not stabilizing ABI, you are freezing a subsystem. Stable
ABI does not mean that bugs do not get fixed and new hardware support
is not being addeed, as in your case.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Sergei Steshenko]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 13:54:29 -0400
"Dmitry Torokhov" <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/9/06, Sergei Steshenko <steshenko_sergei@list.ru> wrote:
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:36:23 -0400
> > "Dmitry Torokhov" <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You are confused. By your logic you do not need XEN at all - just take
> > > a kernel version + alsa and never change/update it - and viola!
> > > "stable" ABI.
> > >
> >
> > I simply described how one ABI (ALSA <-> kernel in this case) can
> > be stabilized, while new non-ALSA related features (and potentially
> > unstable ABI) can still be had.
> >
> > If computer has enough resources, practically every ABI can be
> > stabilized (if desired) this way - as long as the ABI is PCI slot
> > related.
> >
> 
> And in extreme case once you "stablizie" everything you end up with a
> system that is not upgradeable at all.
> 
> > That is, I can, for example, stabilize ALSA-kernel interface choosing
> > (ALSA 1.0.11 + kernel 2.6.17) and I can stabilize TV card interface
> > using (whatever v4l + kernel 2.6.18), etc,
> >
> 
> But you are not stabilizing ABI, you are freezing a subsystem. Stable
> ABI does not mean that bugs do not get fixed and new hardware support
> is not being addeed, as in your case.
> 

I did stabilize ABI - I can be using the same (bit to bit) audio driver
regardless of changes in the kernel not related to ALSA.

I can consider this whole ugly and clumsy construct as a "super"
kernel in which by construction nothing changes in the audio part.

That, I as end user don't care what developers break in the non-audio
part of this kernel - for me audio part is stable.

I let the non-audio part evolve while the audio part remains the
same - even at binary level.

--Sergei.

-- 
Visit my http://appsfromscratch.berlios.de/ open source project.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 09 August 2006 11:46, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
>
>Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Greetings;
>>
>> The old fart is back again. :)
>>
>> I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found
>> that while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4,
>> I do not have any other functioning audio, including the kde sound
>> effects I normally get.  xmms and tvtime are mute, as are the firefox
>> plugins to play videos from the network. 2.6.17.8 and below works great
>> yet.
>>
>> So whats the fix?
>
>Demand stable ABI.

It does not appear to be so.  And ATM booted to 18-rc1, I didn't see an 
error message when rc.local made a call of "[root@coyote gene]# alsactl 
restore
alsactl: set_control:894: warning: name mismatch (Mic Boost (+20dB)/Mic 
Boost (+20dB) Switch) for control #45
alsactl: set_control:896: warning: index mismatch (0/0) for control #45
alsactl: set_control:898: failed to obtain info for control #45 (Operation 
not permitted)
[root@coyote gene]#

But as you can see, the error was there nontheless.  I've seen this or a 
very similar error for .18-rc3 and .18-rc4.

This walks and qwacks like the alsa interface has been diddled, again.  But 
since it KNOWS what hardware its running, in this case an audigy 2, not 
Value, so why was apparently working code broken and then commited to the 
kernel tree?

Humm, because of my use of 2 independant audio channels here, I'm forced to 
use kamix in order to address both systems.  And I found it!  Somehow, 
that card managed to get its "external amplifier" 'led' turned on, which 
apparently kills the normal line outs that drive my speakers.  The display 
also looks slightly busier, like another slider has been added?

Now to check the newer kernels again after doing an 'alsactl store' from 
the cli.  Once I've done that, the above error is not repeated.

And, even kookier, is that after doing the alsactl store, the external 
amplifier button no longer effects it.  Anybody got any migrain medicine?

And tvtime now has a voice too, goodie.. :)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules.  I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:07:26 -0400,
Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday 09 August 2006 11:46, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
> >On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
> >
> >Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> Greetings;
> >>
> >> The old fart is back again. :)
> >>
> >> I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found
> >> that while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4,
> >> I do not have any other functioning audio, including the kde sound
> >> effects I normally get.  xmms and tvtime are mute, as are the firefox
> >> plugins to play videos from the network. 2.6.17.8 and below works great
> >> yet.
> >>
> >> So whats the fix?
> >
> >Demand stable ABI.
> 
> It does not appear to be so.  And ATM booted to 18-rc1, I didn't see an 
> error message when rc.local made a call of "[root@coyote gene]# alsactl 
> restore
> alsactl: set_control:894: warning: name mismatch (Mic Boost (+20dB)/Mic 
> Boost (+20dB) Switch) for control #45
> alsactl: set_control:896: warning: index mismatch (0/0) for control #45
> alsactl: set_control:898: failed to obtain info for control #45 (Operation 
> not permitted)
> [root@coyote gene]#

This kind of problems can be fixed by calling "alsactl restore" with
-F option.  The warnings may be still there but the values are handled
better.

The behavior with -F could be default, but it's kept so just for the
compatibility reason.


Takashi

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 09 August 2006 12:13, Takashi Iwai wrote:
>At Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:07:26 -0400,
>
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Wednesday 09 August 2006 11:46, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
>> >On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
>> >
>> >Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> Greetings;
>> >>
>> >> The old fart is back again. :)
>> >>
>> >> I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have
>> >> found that while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels
>> >> 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4, I do not have any other functioning audio,
>> >> including the kde sound effects I normally get.  xmms and tvtime are
>> >> mute, as are the firefox plugins to play videos from the network.
>> >> 2.6.17.8 and below works great yet.
>> >>
>> >> So whats the fix?
>> >
>> >Demand stable ABI.
>>
>> It does not appear to be so.  And ATM booted to 18-rc1, I didn't see an
>> error message when rc.local made a call of "[root@coyote gene]# alsactl
>> restore
>> alsactl: set_control:894: warning: name mismatch (Mic Boost (+20dB)/Mic
>> Boost (+20dB) Switch) for control #45
>> alsactl: set_control:896: warning: index mismatch (0/0) for control #45
>> alsactl: set_control:898: failed to obtain info for control #45
>> (Operation not permitted)
>> [root@coyote gene]#
>
>This kind of problems can be fixed by calling "alsactl restore" with
>-F option.  The warnings may be still there but the values are handled
>better.
>
>The behavior with -F could be default, but it's kept so just for the
>compatibility reason.
>
>
Humm, and that fixed it for 2.6.18-rc4.  Gawd, I'd sure like to get some of 
that stuff, it must be great stuff.  Goes off scratching head & letting 
imagination work overtime.

>Takashi

Many thanks Takashi.
-- 
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules.  I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Lee Revell]

On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 12:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> This walks and qwacks like the alsa interface has been diddled, again.
> But since it KNOWS what hardware its running, in this case an audigy
> 2, not Value, so why was apparently working code broken and then
> commited to the kernel tree? 

It's a bug.  The interface was not changed intentionally.  ALSA policy
for at least a year has been "no incompatible changes".

Lee

Re: [Alsa-user] another in kernel alsa update that breaks backward compatibilty?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 09 August 2006 12:07, Gene Heskett wrote:
>On Wednesday 09 August 2006 11:46, Sergei Steshenko wrote:
>>On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:40:02 -0400
>>
>>Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Greetings;
>>>
>>> The old fart is back again. :)
>>>
>>> I've just done a divide and conquer on kernel versions, and have found
>>> that while I DO have a kde audio signon for kernels
>>> 2.6.18-rc1-rc3-rc4, I do not have any other functioning audio,
>>> including the kde sound effects I normally get.  xmms and tvtime are
>>> mute, as are the firefox plugins to play videos from the network.
>>> 2.6.17.8 and below works great yet.
>>>
>>> So whats the fix?
>>
>>Demand stable ABI.
>
>It does not appear to be so.  And ATM booted to 18-rc1, I didn't see an
>error message when rc.local made a call of "[root@coyote gene]# alsactl
>restore
>alsactl: set_control:894: warning: name mismatch (Mic Boost (+20dB)/Mic
>Boost (+20dB) Switch) for control #45
>alsactl: set_control:896: warning: index mismatch (0/0) for control #45
>alsactl: set_control:898: failed to obtain info for control #45
> (Operation not permitted)
>[root@coyote gene]#
>
>But as you can see, the error was there nontheless.  I've seen this or a
>very similar error for .18-rc3 and .18-rc4.
>
>This walks and qwacks like the alsa interface has been diddled, again. 
> But since it KNOWS what hardware its running, in this case an audigy 2,
> not Value, so why was apparently working code broken and then commited
> to the kernel tree?
>
>Humm, because of my use of 2 independant audio channels here, I'm forced
> to use kamix in order to address both systems.  And I found it! 
> Somehow, that card managed to get its "external amplifier" 'led' turned
> on, which apparently kills the normal line outs that drive my speakers. 
> The display also looks slightly busier, like another slider has been
> added?
>
>Now to check the newer kernels again after doing an 'alsactl store' from
>the cli.  Once I've done that, the above error is not repeated.
>
>And, even kookier, is that after doing the alsactl store, the external
>amplifier button no longer effects it.  Anybody got any migrain medicine?
>
>And tvtime now has a voice too, goodie.. :)

But, once booted to 2.6.18-rc4, the audio except for the kde signon splash, 
is well and truely muted for all other usage.

I haven't built -rc2 yet, I'll try that next.  Alsamixer cannot coax a peep 
out of it now.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
People having trouble with vz bouncing email to me should add the word
'online' between the 'verizon', and the dot which bypasses vz's
stupid bounce rules.  I do use spamassassin too. :-)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2006 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.