Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matt Mackall]

Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
related problems:

a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:

Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) :
    SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported.

During this time, my keyboard in X is unresponsive, but everything
else seems to be functioning properly. Queued keypresses eventually
show up. Alt-sysrq-w gives:

ieee80211_crypt: registered algorithm 'WEP'
SysRq : Show Blocked State

                         free                        sibling
  task             PC    stack   pid father child younger older
events/0      D C0102D3C     0     4      1             5     3
(L-TLB)
       c1d0bf1c 00000046 c1d0ac20 c0102d3c 00000000 c1d0aa70 00000022
       0000000a
       c1d0aa70 ca8ed618 00000034 00000cd3 c1d0ab7c 00000287 00000002
       f581f040
       00000002 c1d0bf34 00000246 f7b5cb04 c1d0aa70 c038224e c0102c3a
       00000000
Call Trace:
 [<c0102d3c>] __switch_to+0x11b/0x143
 [<c038224e>] __mutex_lock_slowpath+0xfb/0x1e2
 [<c0102c3a>] __switch_to+0x19/0x143
 [<f994a291>] ipw_bg_link_down+0x19/0xbd [ipw2200]
 [<f994a278>] ipw_bg_link_down+0x0/0xbd [ipw2200]
 [<c0122604>] run_workqueue+0x97/0x156
 [<c0122bc7>] worker_thread+0x105/0x12e
 [<c0112399>] default_wake_function+0x0/0xc
 [<c0122ac2>] worker_thread+0x0/0x12e
 [<c01251f7>] kthread+0xa0/0xc9
 [<c0125157>] kthread+0x0/0xc9
 [<c0103f87>] kernel_thread_helper+0x7/0x10
 =======================
ipw2200/0     D 00000020     0  1985      6          2260  1983
(L-TLB)
       f7981f24 00000046 00000001 00000020 c1cdf8c0 00000000 00000000
       0000000a
       f7d09030 e1fdc8c3 00000034 0000093a f7d0913c 00000086 00000020
       f7c4a740
       00000086 f7981f3c 00000246 f7b5cb04 f7d09030 c038224e f7d09030
       c0496550
Call Trace:
 [<c038224e>] __mutex_lock_slowpath+0xfb/0x1e2
 [<c0381233>] __sched_text_start+0x4b3/0x56b
 [<f99445c6>] ipw_bg_gather_stats+0x0/0x27 [ipw2200]
 [<f99445dd>] ipw_bg_gather_stats+0x17/0x27 [ipw2200]
 [<c0122604>] run_workqueue+0x97/0x156
 [<c0122bc7>] worker_thread+0x105/0x12e
 [<c0112399>] default_wake_function+0x0/0xc
 [<c0122ac2>] worker_thread+0x0/0x12e
 [<c01251f7>] kthread+0xa0/0xc9
 [<c0125157>] kthread+0x0/0xc9
 [<c0103f87>] kernel_thread_helper+0x7/0x10
 =======================
ieee80211_crypt_wep: could not allocate crypto API arc4
eth1: could not initialize WEP: load module ieee80211_crypt_wep
ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth1: link is not ready

A second attempt to enable WEP via iwconfig succeeds and network
connectivity is normal. However, NetworkManager still ignores the
device at this point.

Bisect with Mercurial points to this patch:

$ hg bisect bad
The first bad revision is:
changeset:   46985:f701b96bb2f7
user:        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@suse.de>
date:        Wed Feb 07 10:37:11 2007 -0800
summary:     Network: convert network devices to use struct device
instead of class_device

which corresponds to 43cb76d91ee85f579a69d42bc8efc08bac560278 in git.

-- 
 "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.." 

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Johannes Berg]

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[adding linux-wireless to CC]

On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> related problems:

I don't think they are related actually.

> a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200

This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
to upgrade hal to a current git version.

> b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:

That one's strange.

> A second attempt to enable WEP via iwconfig succeeds and network
> connectivity is normal. However, NetworkManager still ignores the
> device at this point.

I'd think it's a ipw bug but I have no idea if that was even touched
during this time.

> Bisect with Mercurial points to this patch:
> 
> $ hg bisect bad
> The first bad revision is:
> changeset:   46985:f701b96bb2f7
> user:        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@suse.de>
> date:        Wed Feb 07 10:37:11 2007 -0800
> summary:     Network: convert network devices to use struct device
> instead of class_device
> 
> which corresponds to 43cb76d91ee85f579a69d42bc8efc08bac560278 in git.

Yup, sysfs breakage/hal stuff. Can you try with a recent hal? And maybe
try to bisect the iwconfig stop thing if you've got enough time...

johannes

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Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote:
> [adding linux-wireless to CC]
> 
> On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > related problems:
> 
> I don't think they are related actually.
> 
> > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> 
> This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
> to upgrade hal to a current git version.

If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break
userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to
2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace,
especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. 

I will try a new HAL when it shows up in Debian/unstable and not a
moment sooner.

> > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:
> 
> That one's strange.
> 
> > A second attempt to enable WEP via iwconfig succeeds and network
> > connectivity is normal. However, NetworkManager still ignores the
> > device at this point.
> 
> I'd think it's a ipw bug but I have no idea if that was even touched
> during this time.
> 
> > Bisect with Mercurial points to this patch:
> > 
> > $ hg bisect bad
> > The first bad revision is:
> > changeset:   46985:f701b96bb2f7
> > user:        Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@suse.de>
> > date:        Wed Feb 07 10:37:11 2007 -0800
> > summary:     Network: convert network devices to use struct device
> > instead of class_device
> > 
> > which corresponds to 43cb76d91ee85f579a69d42bc8efc08bac560278 in git.
> 
> Yup, sysfs breakage/hal stuff. Can you try with a recent hal? And maybe
> try to bisect the iwconfig stop thing if you've got enough time...

Will double-check the iwconfig tests. It's been masked by
NetworkManager for a while.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Andrew Morton]

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:25:50 -0600 Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote:
> > [adding linux-wireless to CC]
> > 
> > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > > related problems:
> > 
> > I don't think they are related actually.
> > 
> > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > 
> > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
> > to upgrade hal to a current git version.
> 
> If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break
> userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to
> 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace,
> especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. 

yep.  Adrian, I think we should track this as a blocking regression, at
least until we've fully understood the implications and had the usual
arguments.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:45:25PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 18:25:50 -0600 Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote:
> > > [adding linux-wireless to CC]
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > > > related problems:
> > > 
> > > I don't think they are related actually.
> > > 
> > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > > 
> > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
> > > to upgrade hal to a current git version.
> > 
> > If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break
> > userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to
> > 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace,
> > especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. 
> 
> yep.  Adrian, I think we should track this as a blocking regression, at
> least until we've fully understood the implications and had the usual
> arguments.

I'm currently tracking it as one of the 31 2.6.21-rc regressions that 
are not yet fixed in Linus' tree, and for me each of them is a blocker
until proven otherwise.

Whether Linus releases 2.6.21 despite blocking regressions is a 
different question...

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Ian McDonald]

On 3/5/07, Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com> wrote:
> > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
> > to upgrade hal to a current git version.
>
> If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break
> userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to
> 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace,
> especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE.
>
> I will try a new HAL when it shows up in Debian/unstable and not a
> moment sooner.
>
But you're running a kernel that's not in Debian/unstable so this
seems a bit hypocritical.

When you work with bleeding edge kernels you have to be prepared to
work around things. Hell for ages git wasn't in Debian - unstable
even, udev would break things etc.

Just my 2c worth.
-- 
Web: http://wand.net.nz/~iam4
Blog: http://iansblog.jandi.co.nz
WAND Network Research Group

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 06:25:50PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Johannes Berg wrote:
> > [adding linux-wireless to CC]
> > 
> > On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 16:08 -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > > related problems:
> > 
> > I don't think they are related actually.
> > 
> > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > 
> > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
> > to upgrade hal to a current git version.
> 
> If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break
> userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to
> 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace,
> especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. 

I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is
enabled with that patch.  If that is enabled, and that patch still
causes problems, please let me know.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Johannes Berg]

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On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 17:17 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

> > > This is due to the recent sysfs restructuring I think. IIRC the fix is
> > > to upgrade hal to a current git version.
> > 
> > If that's the cause, the fix is to back out whatever was done to break
> > userspace. Breaking userspace is not ok. Upgrading from 2.6.x to
> > 2.6.x+1 should not entail replacing substantial parts of userspace,
> > especially with NOT-EVEN-FRAKKING-RELEASED-YET CODE. 
> 
> I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is
> enabled with that patch.  If that is enabled, and that patch still
> causes problems, please let me know.

Yeah, sorry for not mentioning that in my original email and the
discussion it stirred.

johannes

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Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Theodore Tso]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:17:29PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is
> enabled with that patch.  If that is enabled, and that patch still
> causes problems, please let me know.

But we still need to update the help text for CONFIG_SYS_DEPRECATED to
make it clear that its deprecation schedule still needs to be 2009 to
2011 (depending on whether we want to accomodate Debian's glacial
release schedule).  Certainly the 2006 date which is currently there
simply isn't accurate.

						- Ted

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:59:50AM -0500, Theodore Tso wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:17:29PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > I should not have broken any userspace if CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is
> > enabled with that patch.  If that is enabled, and that patch still
> > causes problems, please let me know.
> 
> But we still need to update the help text for CONFIG_SYS_DEPRECATED to
> make it clear that its deprecation schedule still needs to be 2009 to
> 2011 (depending on whether we want to accomodate Debian's glacial
> release schedule).  Certainly the 2006 date which is currently there
> simply isn't accurate.

Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?

thanks,

greg k-h

---
 init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
 1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

--- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
+++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
@@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
 	  order to support older versions of udev.
 
-	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
-	  it should be safe to say N here.
+	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
+	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
+
+	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
+	  update HAL, please say Y here.
+
+	  If you have any problems with devices not being found properly
+	  from userspace programs, and this option is disabled, say Y
+	  here.
+
+	  If you are unsure about this at all, say Y.
 
 config RELAY
 	bool "Kernel->user space relay support (formerly relayfs)"

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> 
> -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> +
> +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> +	  update HAL, please say Y here.

What HAL version do you think Debian ought to have, pray tell? And
what the hell version do those other distros have?

The last HAL release was 0.5.8 on 11-Sep-2006. It showed up in
Debian/unstable on 2-Oct. There have been six Debian bugfix releases,
the most recent on 12-Feb.

http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/dist/
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/h/hal/hal_0.5.8.1-6.1/changelog

The last NetworkManager is 0.6.4 released 13-Jul-2006. It showed up in
Debian/unstable on 8-Aug. There have been five bugfix releases, the
most recent on 30-Nov.

http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/NetworkManager/0.6/
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/n/network-manager/network-manager_0.6.4-6/changelog

Debian is NOT the problem.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 01:55:30PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > 
> > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > +
> > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> 
> What HAL version do you think Debian ought to have, pray tell? And
> what the hell version do those other distros have?
> 
> The last HAL release was 0.5.8 on 11-Sep-2006. It showed up in
> Debian/unstable on 2-Oct. There have been six Debian bugfix releases,
> the most recent on 12-Feb.
> 
> http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/dist/
> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/h/hal/hal_0.5.8.1-6.1/changelog

Ok, I only named HAL as that is what people have told me the problem is.
I have been running this change on my boxs, without
CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED since last July or so.

But I don't use NetworkManager here for the most part, but I have tried
this in the OpenSuse10.3 alpha releases and it seems to work just fine
with whatever version of NetworkManager it uses.

So perhaps it's some wrapper scripts somewhere?  I think SuSE had some
odd things hard coded somewhere that prevented 10.1 from working
properly with this change.

Ok, so I'll drop the HAL wording above, what should I say instead?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matthew Garrett]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:39:00PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:

> Ok, I only named HAL as that is what people have told me the problem is.
> I have been running this change on my boxs, without
> CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED since last July or so.
> 
> But I don't use NetworkManager here for the most part, but I have tried
> this in the OpenSuse10.3 alpha releases and it seems to work just fine
> with whatever version of NetworkManager it uses.

At a guess, you're carrying either a git snapshot or have backports from 
git. Several distributions do this, but until there's actually been a 
released version that works, it's a bit early to set a timescale.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59@srcf.ucam.org

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Jeffrey Hundstad]

Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:59:50AM -0500, Theodore Tso wrote:
>   
> Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
>
> thanks,
>
> greg k-h
>
> ---
>  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
>  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
>
> --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
>  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
>  	  order to support older versions of udev.
>  
> -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> +
> +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> +
> +	  If you have any problems with devices not being found properly
> +	  from userspace programs, and this option is disabled, say Y
> +	  here.
> +
> +	  If you are unsure about this at all, say Y.
>  
>  config RELAY
>  	bool "Kernel->user space relay support (formerly relayfs)"

Since it appears you're trying to offend people with this patch, it 
would seem appropriate to call someone's mother a "bad" name.  This may 
be in the style guide; perhaps I should submit a patch.

-- 
Jeffrey Hundstad
PS: Humor (really!) relax.

[2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> 
> Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> greg k-h
> 
> ---
>  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
>  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> 
> --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
>  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
>  	  order to support older versions of udev.
>  
> -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> +
> +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
>...

The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).

12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.

Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.

Suggested patch below.

cu
Adrian


<--  snip  -->


unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

This patch unconditionally enables SYSFS_DEPRECATED and schedules it's
removal for July 2008.

Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users accidentally
disabling it.

In July 2008, all distributions with at least one release a year should
be able to run without SYSFS_DEPRECATED.

Signed-off-by: Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de>

diff --git a/Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt b/Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt
index c3b1430..b0bce93 100644
--- a/Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt
+++ b/Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt
@@ -316,3 +316,13 @@ Why:	The option/code is
 Who:	Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>
 
 ---------------------------
+
+What:	deprecated sysfs files (CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED)
+When:	July 2008
+Why:	None of these features or values should be used any longer,
+	as they export driver core implementation details to userspace
+	or export properties which can't be kept stable across kernel
+	releases.
+Who:	Greg KH <greg@kroah.com>
+
+---------------------------
diff --git a/init/Kconfig b/init/Kconfig
index f977086..f652b6f 100644
--- a/init/Kconfig
+++ b/init/Kconfig
@@ -274,24 +274,9 @@ config CPUSETS
 	  Say N if unsure.
 
 config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
-	bool "Create deprecated sysfs files"
+	bool
 	default y
 	help
-	  This option creates deprecated symlinks such as the
-	  "device"-link, the <subsystem>:<name>-link, and the
-	  "bus"-link. It may also add deprecated key in the
-	  uevent environment.
-	  None of these features or values should be used today, as
-	  they export driver core implementation details to userspace
-	  or export properties which can't be kept stable across kernel
-	  releases.
-
-	  If enabled, this option will also move any device structures
-	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
-	  order to support older versions of udev.
-
-	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
-	  it should be safe to say N here.
 
 config RELAY
 	bool "Kernel->user space relay support (formerly relayfs)"

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > 
> > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > 
> > thanks,
> > 
> > greg k-h
> > 
> > ---
> >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > 
> > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> >  
> > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > +
> > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> >...
> 
> The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> 
> 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> 
> Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.

Huh?

No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.

And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?
And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?

So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.

It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.

Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.

I would just prefer to come up with an acceptable set of wording that
will work to properly warn people.

I proposed one such wording which some people took as a slam against
Debian, which it really was not at all.

Does someone else want to propose some other wording instead?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:07:22PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > 
> > > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > > 
> > > thanks,
> > > 
> > > greg k-h
> > > 
> > > ---
> > >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> > >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > > 
> > > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> > >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> > >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> > >  
> > > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > +
> > > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> > >...
> > 
> > The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> > for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> > 
> > 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> > to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> > distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> > 
> > Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.
> 
> And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?

On a server, it shouldn't harm.

> And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?

If it was much code, I would have sent a patch that allowed disabling it 
if EMBEDDED=y.

> So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
> want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
> other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.
> 
> It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
> think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.
> 
> Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.

For most people, it simply doesn't matter whether SYSFS_DEPRECATED is 
on or off.

But accidentally disabling SYSFS_DEPRECATED has proven to be a trap 
people sometimes fall into - and tracking them down to 
SYSFS_DEPRECATED=n sometimes takes some time.

> I would just prefer to come up with an acceptable set of wording that
> will work to properly warn people.
> 
> I proposed one such wording which some people took as a slam against
> Debian, which it really was not at all.
> 
> Does someone else want to propose some other wording instead?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> greg k-h

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 01:35:41AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:07:22PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > > > 
> > > > thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > greg k-h
> > > > 
> > > > ---
> > > >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> > > >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > > > 
> > > > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > > > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > > > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> > > >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> > > >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> > > >  
> > > > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > > > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > > > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > +
> > > > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > > > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> > > >...
> > > 
> > > The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> > > for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> > > 
> > > 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> > > to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> > > distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> > > 
> > > Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.
> > 
> > Huh?
> > 
> > No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.
> > 
> > And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?
> 
> On a server, it shouldn't harm.

But if they wanted that option enabled?

> > And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?
> 
> If it was much code, I would have sent a patch that allowed disabling it 
> if EMBEDDED=y.

It's not a code size issue.  In fact, if the option is enabled, like you
have done, it builds more code into the kernel than before.

> > So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
> > want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
> > other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.
> > 
> > It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
> > think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.
> > 
> > Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.
> 
> For most people, it simply doesn't matter whether SYSFS_DEPRECATED is 
> on or off.

Exactly.

> But accidentally disabling SYSFS_DEPRECATED has proven to be a trap 
> people sometimes fall into - and tracking them down to 
> SYSFS_DEPRECATED=n sometimes takes some time.

So how do I put up the warning flag any larger than I have?

I do not want this always enabled, that option is not acceptable to me,
or to the zillions of people who are running a distro that this option
works just fine on (see above list...)

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:07:22PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > 
> > > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > > 
> > > thanks,
> > > 
> > > greg k-h
> > > 
> > > ---
> > >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> > >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > > 
> > > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> > >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> > >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> > >  
> > > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > +
> > > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> > >...
> > 
> > The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> > for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> > 
> > 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> > to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> > distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> > 
> > Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.
> 
> And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?
> And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?
> 
> So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
> want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
> other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.
> 
> It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
> think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.
> 
> Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.
>
> I would just prefer to come up with an acceptable set of wording that
> will work to properly warn people.
> 
> I proposed one such wording which some people took as a slam against
> Debian, which it really was not at all.
> 
> Does someone else want to propose some other wording instead?

Back up a bit. Let's review:

Problem: NetworkManager stopped working with my ipw2200 on Debian/unstable

Theory A: It broke because I'm not running an as-yet-unreleased HAL.

 Then we should revert the patch pronto because it's an unqualified
 regression.

Theory B: It broke because I'm not running relatively recent HAL.

 By all accounts I'm running the latest and greatest HAL and Network
 Manager, more than recent enough to work.

Theory C: It broke because I've got some goofy config.

 My setup passes no arguments to either. The HAL config file is
 completely bare-bones and there's no sign of any configuration files
 for Network Manager.

Theory D: It broke for some nebulous Debian-related reason.

 That's a bunch of unhelpful crap.

Can we come up with an actual theory for what's wrong with my setup, please?
Like, perhaps:

Theory E: There's some undiagnosed new breakage that this introduces
that no else hit until it went into mainline.

 Hmmm, this one sounds more promising.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:30:21PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:07:22PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > > > 
> > > > thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > greg k-h
> > > > 
> > > > ---
> > > >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> > > >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > > > 
> > > > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > > > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > > > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> > > >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> > > >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> > > >  
> > > > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > > > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > > > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > +
> > > > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > > > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> > > >...
> > > 
> > > The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> > > for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> > > 
> > > 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> > > to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> > > distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> > > 
> > > Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.
> > 
> > Huh?
> > 
> > No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.
> > 
> > And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?
> > And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?
> > 
> > So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
> > want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
> > other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.
> > 
> > It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
> > think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.
> > 
> > Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.
> >
> > I would just prefer to come up with an acceptable set of wording that
> > will work to properly warn people.
> > 
> > I proposed one such wording which some people took as a slam against
> > Debian, which it really was not at all.
> > 
> > Does someone else want to propose some other wording instead?
> 
> Back up a bit. Let's review:
> 
> Problem: NetworkManager stopped working with my ipw2200 on Debian/unstable
> 
> Theory A: It broke because I'm not running an as-yet-unreleased HAL.
> 
>  Then we should revert the patch pronto because it's an unqualified
>  regression.
> 
> Theory B: It broke because I'm not running relatively recent HAL.
> 
>  By all accounts I'm running the latest and greatest HAL and Network
>  Manager, more than recent enough to work.
> 
> Theory C: It broke because I've got some goofy config.
> 
>  My setup passes no arguments to either. The HAL config file is
>  completely bare-bones and there's no sign of any configuration files
>  for Network Manager.
> 
> Theory D: It broke for some nebulous Debian-related reason.
> 
>  That's a bunch of unhelpful crap.
> 

> Can we come up with an actual theory for what's wrong with my setup, please?
> Like, perhaps:
> 
> Theory E: There's some undiagnosed new breakage that this introduces
> that no else hit until it went into mainline.

Theory F:  It broke because you are using NetworkManager for your
network devices and the patches that fix this have not made it into a
real release?

I'm just guessing, but does anyone who is having this problem, NOT using
NetworkManager?

I'm running an old version of HAL just fine, but I'm not using
NetworkManager here.

I am using NetworkManager on a OpenSuSE 10.3 release, but suse's version
of NetworkManager is well known to not be anywhere near what is released
as a tarball :(

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Johannes Berg]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 600 bytes --]

On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 17:56 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

> Theory F:  It broke because you are using NetworkManager for your
> network devices and the patches that fix this have not made it into a
> real release?
> 
> I'm just guessing, but does anyone who is having this problem, NOT using
> NetworkManager?
> 
> I'm running an old version of HAL just fine, but I'm not using
> NetworkManager here.

Greg, HAL itself isn't the problem. The problem is that older versions
of HAL ignore all network devices when this option is not set and thus
network manager can't pick them up.

johannes

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 190 bytes --]

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Dan Williams]

On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 17:56 -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:30:21PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:07:22PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > > > > 
> > > > > thanks,
> > > > > 
> > > > > greg k-h
> > > > > 
> > > > > ---
> > > > >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> > > > >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > > > > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > > > > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> > > > >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> > > > >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> > > > >  
> > > > > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > > > > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > > > > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > > +
> > > > > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > > > > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> > > > >...
> > > > 
> > > > The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> > > > for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> > > > 
> > > > 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> > > > to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> > > > distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> > > > 
> > > > Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.
> > > 
> > > Huh?
> > > 
> > > No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.
> > > 
> > > And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?
> > > And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?
> > > 
> > > So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
> > > want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
> > > other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.
> > > 
> > > It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
> > > think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.
> > > 
> > > Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.
> > >
> > > I would just prefer to come up with an acceptable set of wording that
> > > will work to properly warn people.
> > > 
> > > I proposed one such wording which some people took as a slam against
> > > Debian, which it really was not at all.
> > > 
> > > Does someone else want to propose some other wording instead?
> > 
> > Back up a bit. Let's review:
> > 
> > Problem: NetworkManager stopped working with my ipw2200 on Debian/unstable
> > 
> > Theory A: It broke because I'm not running an as-yet-unreleased HAL.
> > 
> >  Then we should revert the patch pronto because it's an unqualified
> >  regression.
> > 
> > Theory B: It broke because I'm not running relatively recent HAL.
> > 
> >  By all accounts I'm running the latest and greatest HAL and Network
> >  Manager, more than recent enough to work.
> > 
> > Theory C: It broke because I've got some goofy config.
> > 
> >  My setup passes no arguments to either. The HAL config file is
> >  completely bare-bones and there's no sign of any configuration files
> >  for Network Manager.
> > 
> > Theory D: It broke for some nebulous Debian-related reason.
> > 
> >  That's a bunch of unhelpful crap.
> > 
> 
> > Can we come up with an actual theory for what's wrong with my setup, please?
> > Like, perhaps:
> > 
> > Theory E: There's some undiagnosed new breakage that this introduces
> > that no else hit until it went into mainline.
> 
> Theory F:  It broke because you are using NetworkManager for your
> network devices and the patches that fix this have not made it into a
> real release?

The problem is _NOT_ NetworkManager.  NM just asks HAL for network
devices, NM does not muck with /sys at all.  If HAL can't see it,
NetworkManager can't see it, because NM uses HAL.

The problem is that sysfs is fundamentally a kernel API.  Whenever it
changes, HAL must change or HAL will break.  Same story with anything
that ever reads from sysfs.

Dan

> I'm just guessing, but does anyone who is having this problem, NOT using
> NetworkManager?
> 
> I'm running an old version of HAL just fine, but I'm not using
> NetworkManager here.
> 
> I am using NetworkManager on a OpenSuSE 10.3 release, but suse's version
> of NetworkManager is well known to not be anywhere near what is released
> as a tarball :(
> 
> thanks,
> 
> greg k-h
> -
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> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:30:21PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:07:22PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:40:52AM +0100, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:58:13AM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Ok, how about the following patch.  Is it acceptable to everyone?
> > > > 
> > > > thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > greg k-h
> > > > 
> > > > ---
> > > >  init/Kconfig |   13 +++++++++++--
> > > >  1 file changed, 11 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> > > > 
> > > > --- gregkh-2.6.orig/init/Kconfig
> > > > +++ gregkh-2.6/init/Kconfig
> > > > @@ -290,8 +290,17 @@ config SYSFS_DEPRECATED
> > > >  	  that belong to a class, back into the /sys/class heirachy, in
> > > >  	  order to support older versions of udev.
> > > >  
> > > > -	  If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or later,
> > > > -	  it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > +	  If you are using an OpenSuSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu, or Fedora
> > > > +	  release from 2007 or later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > > +
> > > > +	  If you are using Debian or other distros that are slow to
> > > > +	  update HAL, please say Y here.
> > > >...
> > > 
> > > The sane solution seems to be to enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED unconditionally 
> > > for all users, and schedule it's removal for mid-2008 (or later).
> > > 
> > > 12 months after the first _release_ of a HAL that can live without seems 
> > > to be the first time when we can consider getting rid of it, since all 
> > > distributions with at least one release a year should ship it by then.
> > > 
> > > Currently, SYSFS_DEPRECATED is only a trap for users.
> > 
> > Huh?
> > 
> > No, again, I've been using this just fine for about 6 months now.
> > 
> > And what about all of the servers not using HAL/NetworkManager?
> > And what about all of the embedded systems not using either?
> > 
> > So to not allow this to be turned off by people who might want to (we
> > want this for OpenSuSE 10.3, and Fedora 7 also will want this, as will
> > other distros released this year), is pretty heavy-handed.
> > 
> > It also will work in OpenSuSE 10.2 which is already released, and I
> > think Fedora 6, but I've only limited experience with these.
> > 
> > Oh, and Gentoo works just fine, and has been for the past 6 months.
> >
> > I would just prefer to come up with an acceptable set of wording that
> > will work to properly warn people.
> > 
> > I proposed one such wording which some people took as a slam against
> > Debian, which it really was not at all.
> > 
> > Does someone else want to propose some other wording instead?
> 
> Back up a bit. Let's review:
> 
> Problem: NetworkManager stopped working with my ipw2200 on Debian/unstable

Wait, have confirmed that if you enable this config option,
NetworkManager starts back up again and works properly?

If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
trying to access what?  That will put the
HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
quickly :)

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:48:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
 
> Wait, have confirmed that if you enable this config option,
> NetworkManager starts back up again and works properly?

Yep, probably should have mentioned that.

> If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
> trying to access what?  That will put the
> HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
> quickly :)

Did that a few hours ago, got a very large dump from both programs. No
smoking guns to my eye, but I'll send you the logs later.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:48:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
> trying to access what?  That will put the
> HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
> quickly :)

Ok, I've got straces of both good and bad (>5M each). Filtered out
random pointer values and the like, diffed, and filtered for /sys/,
and the result's still 1.5M. What should I be looking for?

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 09:39:47PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:48:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
> > trying to access what?  That will put the
> > HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
> > quickly :)
> 
> Ok, I've got straces of both good and bad (>5M each). Filtered out
> random pointer values and the like, diffed, and filtered for /sys/,
> and the result's still 1.5M. What should I be looking for?

Failures when trying to read from /sys/class/net/

Or opening the directory and iterating over the subdirs in there.  Or
something like that.

But the /sys/class/net/ stuff should hopefully help narrow it down.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 08:03:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 09:39:47PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:48:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
> > > trying to access what?  That will put the
> > > HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
> > > quickly :)
> > 
> > Ok, I've got straces of both good and bad (>5M each). Filtered out
> > random pointer values and the like, diffed, and filtered for /sys/,
> > and the result's still 1.5M. What should I be looking for?
> 
> Failures when trying to read from /sys/class/net/
> 
> Or opening the directory and iterating over the subdirs in there.  Or
> something like that.
> 
> But the /sys/class/net/ stuff should hopefully help narrow it down.

Works:

6857  open("/sys/class/net",
O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY) = 13
6857  fstat64(13, {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
6857  fcntl64(13, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)  = 0
6857  getdents64(13, /* 5 entries */, 4096) = 120
6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
(Invalid argument)
6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1/device",
"../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:02.0", 256) = 53
6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
(Invalid argument)
6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo/device", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 ENOENT
(No such
file or directory)
6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
(Invalid argument)
6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0/device",
"../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:01.0", 256) = 53
6857  getdents64(13, /* 0 entries */, 4096) = 0
6857  close(13)                         = 0

Breaks:

3620  open("/sys/class/net",
O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY) = 13
3620  fstat64(13, {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
3620  fcntl64(13, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)  = 0
3620  getdents64(13, /* 5 entries */, 4096) = 120
3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1",
"../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/00\00:02:02.0/eth1", 256) = 55
3620
readlink("/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:02.0/eth1/device",
0x809e910, 256) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo", "../../devices/virtual/net/lo",
256) = 28
3620  readlink("/sys/devices/virtual/net/lo/device", 0x809e960, 256) =
-1 ENOEN\T (No such file or directory)
3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0",
"../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/00\00:02:01.0/eth0", 256) = 55
3620
readlink("/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:01.0/eth0/device",
0x809e960, 256) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
3620  getdents64(13, /* 0 entries */, 4096) = 0
3620  close(13)                         = 0

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:10:09AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 08:03:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 09:39:47PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:48:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
> > > > trying to access what?  That will put the
> > > > HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
> > > > quickly :)
> > > 
> > > Ok, I've got straces of both good and bad (>5M each). Filtered out
> > > random pointer values and the like, diffed, and filtered for /sys/,
> > > and the result's still 1.5M. What should I be looking for?
> > 
> > Failures when trying to read from /sys/class/net/
> > 
> > Or opening the directory and iterating over the subdirs in there.  Or
> > something like that.
> > 
> > But the /sys/class/net/ stuff should hopefully help narrow it down.
> 
> Works:
> 
> 6857  open("/sys/class/net",
> O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY) = 13
> 6857  fstat64(13, {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
> 6857  fcntl64(13, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)  = 0
> 6857  getdents64(13, /* 5 entries */, 4096) = 120
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
> (Invalid argument)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1/device",
> "../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:02.0", 256) = 53
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
> (Invalid argument)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo/device", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 ENOENT
> (No such
> file or directory)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
> (Invalid argument)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0/device",
> "../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:01.0", 256) = 53
> 6857  getdents64(13, /* 0 entries */, 4096) = 0
> 6857  close(13)                         = 0
> 
> Breaks:
> 
> 3620  open("/sys/class/net",
> O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY) = 13
> 3620  fstat64(13, {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
> 3620  fcntl64(13, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)  = 0
> 3620  getdents64(13, /* 5 entries */, 4096) = 120
> 3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1",
> "../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/00\00:02:02.0/eth1", 256) = 55
> 3620
> readlink("/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:02.0/eth1/device",
> 0x809e910, 256) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
> 3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo", "../../devices/virtual/net/lo",
> 256) = 28
> 3620  readlink("/sys/devices/virtual/net/lo/device", 0x809e960, 256) =
> -1 ENOEN\T (No such file or directory)
> 3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0",
> "../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/00\00:02:01.0/eth0", 256) = 55
> 3620
> readlink("/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:01.0/eth0/device",
> 0x809e960, 256) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
> 3620  getdents64(13, /* 0 entries */, 4096) = 0
> 3620  close(13)                         = 0

Ah, that should be simple to fix in the kernel, give me an hour or so...

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [2.6.21 patch] unconditionally enable SYSFS_DEPRECATED

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:10:09AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 08:03:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 09:39:47PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:48:50PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > If so, can you disable the option and strace it to see what program is
> > > > trying to access what?  That will put the
> > > > HAL/NetworkManager/libsysfs/distro script finger pointing to rest pretty
> > > > quickly :)
> > > 
> > > Ok, I've got straces of both good and bad (>5M each). Filtered out
> > > random pointer values and the like, diffed, and filtered for /sys/,
> > > and the result's still 1.5M. What should I be looking for?
> > 
> > Failures when trying to read from /sys/class/net/
> > 
> > Or opening the directory and iterating over the subdirs in there.  Or
> > something like that.
> > 
> > But the /sys/class/net/ stuff should hopefully help narrow it down.
> 
> Works:
> 
> 6857  open("/sys/class/net",
> O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY) = 13
> 6857  fstat64(13, {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
> 6857  fcntl64(13, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)  = 0
> 6857  getdents64(13, /* 5 entries */, 4096) = 120
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
> (Invalid argument)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1/device",
> "../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:02.0", 256) = 53
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
> (Invalid argument)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo/device", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 ENOENT
> (No such
> file or directory)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0", 0x80a2450, 256) = -1 EINVAL
> (Invalid argument)
> 6857  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0/device",
> "../../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:01.0", 256) = 53
> 6857  getdents64(13, /* 0 entries */, 4096) = 0
> 6857  close(13)                         = 0
> 
> Breaks:
> 
> 3620  open("/sys/class/net",
> O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_LARGEFILE|O_DIRECTORY) = 13
> 3620  fstat64(13, {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0755, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
> 3620  fcntl64(13, F_SETFD, FD_CLOEXEC)  = 0
> 3620  getdents64(13, /* 5 entries */, 4096) = 120
> 3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth1",
> "../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/00\00:02:02.0/eth1", 256) = 55
> 3620
> readlink("/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:02.0/eth1/device",
> 0x809e910, 256) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
> 3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/lo", "../../devices/virtual/net/lo",
> 256) = 28
> 3620  readlink("/sys/devices/virtual/net/lo/device", 0x809e960, 256) =
> -1 ENOEN\T (No such file or directory)
> 3620  readlink("/sys/class/net/eth0",
> "../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/00\00:02:01.0/eth0", 256) = 55
> 3620
> readlink("/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:02:01.0/eth0/device",
> 0x809e960, 256) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
> 3620  getdents64(13, /* 0 entries */, 4096) = 0
> 3620  close(13)                         = 0

Can you try the patch below?  And enable CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED.  It
should cause HAL to see the network devices again, as the symlink is now
back (it shouldn't have gone away, that was my fault...)

I tried this with HAL 0.5.7, which is pretty old, and hal-device-manager
shows my network devices properly.

thanks for your patience,

greg k-h


---
 drivers/base/core.c |   21 +++++++++++++--------
 1 file changed, 13 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

--- gregkh-2.6.orig/drivers/base/core.c
+++ gregkh-2.6/drivers/base/core.c
@@ -584,17 +584,17 @@ int device_add(struct device *dev)
 		if (dev->kobj.parent != &dev->class->subsys.kset.kobj)
 			sysfs_create_link(&dev->class->subsys.kset.kobj,
 					  &dev->kobj, dev->bus_id);
-#ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 		if (parent) {
 			sysfs_create_link(&dev->kobj, &dev->parent->kobj,
 							"device");
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 			class_name = make_class_name(dev->class->name,
 							&dev->kobj);
 			if (class_name)
 				sysfs_create_link(&dev->parent->kobj,
 						  &dev->kobj, class_name);
-		}
 #endif
+		}
 	}
 
 	if ((error = device_add_attrs(dev)))
@@ -651,17 +651,17 @@ int device_add(struct device *dev)
 		if (dev->kobj.parent != &dev->class->subsys.kset.kobj)
 			sysfs_remove_link(&dev->class->subsys.kset.kobj,
 					  dev->bus_id);
-#ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 		if (parent) {
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 			char *class_name = make_class_name(dev->class->name,
 							   &dev->kobj);
 			if (class_name)
 				sysfs_remove_link(&dev->parent->kobj,
 						  class_name);
 			kfree(class_name);
+#endif
 			sysfs_remove_link(&dev->kobj, "device");
 		}
-#endif
 
 		down(&dev->class->sem);
 		/* notify any interfaces that the device is now gone */
@@ -761,17 +761,17 @@ void device_del(struct device * dev)
 		if (dev->kobj.parent != &dev->class->subsys.kset.kobj)
 			sysfs_remove_link(&dev->class->subsys.kset.kobj,
 					  dev->bus_id);
-#ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 		if (parent) {
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
 			char *class_name = make_class_name(dev->class->name,
 							   &dev->kobj);
 			if (class_name)
 				sysfs_remove_link(&dev->parent->kobj,
 						  class_name);
 			kfree(class_name);
+#endif
 			sysfs_remove_link(&dev->kobj, "device");
 		}
-#endif
 
 		down(&dev->class->sem);
 		/* notify any interfaces that the device is now gone */
@@ -1064,8 +1064,8 @@ static int device_move_class_links(struc
 				   struct device *old_parent,
 				   struct device *new_parent)
 {
+	int error = 0;
 #ifdef CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED
-	int error;
 	char *class_name;
 
 	class_name = make_class_name(dev->class->name, &dev->kobj);
@@ -1093,7 +1093,12 @@ out:
 	kfree(class_name);
 	return error;
 #else
-	return 0;
+	if (old_parent)
+		sysfs_remove_link(&dev->kobj, "device");
+	if (new_parent)
+		error = sysfs_create_link(&dev->kobj, &new_parent->kobj,
+					  "device");
+	return error;
 #endif
 }
 

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Johannes Berg]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 239 bytes --]

On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 07:59 -0500, Theodore Tso wrote:

>  (depending on whether we want to accomodate Debian's glacial
> release schedule). 

I don't think Debian updates the kernel to some actual newer version
either.

johannes

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 190 bytes --]

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> related problems:
> 
> a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:
> 
> Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) :
>     SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported.

Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled?  If not, please do as that
will keep you from having to change any userspace code.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matt Mackall]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > related problems:
> > 
> > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:
> > 
> > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) :
> >     SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported.
> 
> Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled?  If not, please do as that
> will keep you from having to change any userspace code.

No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig
problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED:

          If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or
	  later, it should be safe to say N here.

If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above
should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in
the next few months, you might make that 2010.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:42:29AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > > related problems:
> > > 
> > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:
> > > 
> > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) :
> > >     SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported.
> > 
> > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled?  If not, please do as that
> > will keep you from having to change any userspace code.
> 
> No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig
> problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED:
> 
>           If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or
> 	  later, it should be safe to say N here.
> 
> If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above
> should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in
> the next few months, you might make that 2010.

Well, just because Debian has such a slow release cycle, should the rest
of the world be forced to follow suit?  :)

When I originally wrote that, I thought Debian would have already done
their release, my mistake...

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matt Mackall]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 11:02:48PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:42:29AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > > > related problems:
> > > > 
> > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:
> > > > 
> > > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) :
> > > >     SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported.
> > > 
> > > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled?  If not, please do as that
> > > will keep you from having to change any userspace code.
> > 
> > No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig
> > problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED:
> > 
> >           If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or
> > 	  later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > 
> > If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above
> > should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in
> > the next few months, you might make that 2010.
> 
> Well, just because Debian has such a slow release cycle, should the rest
> of the world be forced to follow suit?  :)
> 
> When I originally wrote that, I thought Debian would have already done
> their release, my mistake...

That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this
morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest
releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And
there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that
hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the
problem here.

If it is indeed the case that HAL needs to be upgraded here, the clock
on deprecating these features can't even start counting until a usable
HAL version is released. And then you need to give it at least a year
after that before you can start recommending people disable it.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 01:13:26AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 11:02:48PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:42:29AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 05:16:25PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:08:57PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > > > > Recent kernels are having troubles with wireless for me. Two seemingly
> > > > > related problems:
> > > > > 
> > > > > a) NetworkManager seems oblivious to the existence of my IPW2200
> > > > > b) Manual iwconfig waits for 60s and then reports:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) :
> > > > >     SET failed on device eth1 ; Operation not supported.
> > > > 
> > > > Do you have CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED enabled?  If not, please do as that
> > > > will keep you from having to change any userspace code.
> > > 
> > > No, it's disabled. Will test once I'm done tracking down the iwconfig
> > > problem. From the help text for SYSFS_DEPRECATED:
> > > 
> > >           If you are using a distro that was released in 2006 or
> > > 	  later, it should be safe to say N here.
> > > 
> > > If we need an as-yet-unreleased HAL without it, I would say the above
> > > should be changed to 2008 or so. If Debian actually cuts a release in
> > > the next few months, you might make that 2010.
> > 
> > Well, just because Debian has such a slow release cycle, should the rest
> > of the world be forced to follow suit?  :)
> > 
> > When I originally wrote that, I thought Debian would have already done
> > their release, my mistake...
> 
> That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this
> morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest
> releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And
> there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that
> hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the
> problem here.

  hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be
problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very
irritating corner case.

-- 
Tomasz Torcz                Only gods can safely risk perfection,
zdzichu@irc.-nie.spam-.pl     it's a dangerous thing for a man.  -- Alia

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Matt Mackall]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this
> > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest
> > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And
> > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that
> > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the
> > problem here.
> 
>   hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be
> problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very
> irritating corner case.

Presumably the -rc1 stands for "release candidate". Which means "not
yet released". And when did it show up? 04-Mar-2007 at 18:31. That's
right, YESTERDAY. Almost a full month after Greg's commit.

For the last time, DEBIAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

-- 
Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Bron Gondwana]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:14:25PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this
> > > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest
> > > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And
> > > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that
> > > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the
> > > problem here.
> > 
> >   hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be
> > problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very
> > irritating corner case.
> 
> Presumably the -rc1 stands for "release candidate". Which means "not
> yet released". And when did it show up? 04-Mar-2007 at 18:31. That's
> right, YESTERDAY. Almost a full month after Greg's commit.
> 
> For the last time, DEBIAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

Can I please second this (having been burned by hell that was udev of
the 0.5ish era) - Greg, please try to make changes in a cross-compatible
way so that versions of userspace and kernel are not so closely
dependant on tracking each other.  The whole 2.6.8 -> 2.6.12 series of
kernels and associated udevs are fraught with race conditions where
upgrading one but not the other will leave your machine unbootable.

I read the "manifesto" for udev showing how crap devfs was, it was
broken, it could never be fixed etc - yet my experience was that devfs
systems "just worked"[tm] and udev was very dangerous.  My thinking is
going to be tarnished by that for a while and my mental image of udev
is "unreliable POS".  I'm hoping enough good experiences with udev might
make me feel less scared whenever I have to deal with it.

Similarly, I'm hoping I don't have to think "oh shit, will this break
boot" every time I upgrade either a kernel or hal version for the next
year, because it would really suck to do that all over again.  It
contributes to the meme that linux is unreliable and perpetually
unstable.

Regards,

Bron.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 11:24:57AM +1100, Bron Gondwana wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:14:25PM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> > > > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this
> > > > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest
> > > > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And
> > > > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that
> > > > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the
> > > > problem here.
> > > 
> > >   hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be
> > > problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very
> > > irritating corner case.
> > 
> > Presumably the -rc1 stands for "release candidate". Which means "not
> > yet released". And when did it show up? 04-Mar-2007 at 18:31. That's
> > right, YESTERDAY. Almost a full month after Greg's commit.
> > 
> > For the last time, DEBIAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
> 
> Can I please second this (having been burned by hell that was udev of
> the 0.5ish era) - Greg, please try to make changes in a cross-compatible
> way so that versions of userspace and kernel are not so closely
> dependant on tracking each other.  The whole 2.6.8 -> 2.6.12 series of
> kernels and associated udevs are fraught with race conditions where
> upgrading one but not the other will leave your machine unbootable.

But I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE!!!

That's what that config option is there for.  If you happen to be
running a newer userspace, a different distro than what is in Debian
right now, or don't use HAL and Networkmanager, then disable that
option.  Then all of sysfs looks just like it used to, no user visble
changes at all.  It doesn't get any more compatible than that.

Again, I've pointed out distros that work just fine many times in this
thread...

It's been there since 2.6.20 I think, no one seemed to have noticed it
then for an odd reason...

And the default is enabled, you have to manually turn it off in order to
break your machine.

Again, how can I word this in a manner that would be sufficient to keep
this misunderstanding from happening again?

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Theodore Tso]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:37:15PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> But I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE!!!
> 
> That's what that config option is there for.  If you happen to be
> running a newer userspace, a different distro than what is in Debian
> right now, or don't use HAL and Networkmanager, then disable that
> option.  Then all of sysfs looks just like it used to, no user visble
> changes at all.  It doesn't get any more compatible than that.

This is great, but I think the real problem isn't the config option,
but what is changing if the config option isn't enabled.  The claim
which some, including Matt and Bron, seem to be making is that if you
turn *off* CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, you must be using at least hal
0.5.9-rc1, released ***yesterday***, or suffer breakages for at least
some system configurations.

So the problem with putting a date in Kconfig.txt help file, or in
Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt, is that if there are other
incompatible changes which are added to sysfs in say, December 2007 or
January 2008, but which are papered over with CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED,
and then come June 2008, CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is unceremoniously
ripped out, then users will get screwed.  

So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs,
or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to
sysfs.  Call what we have currently not CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, but
rather CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_1.  At the moment, CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_2 is
undergoing changes, but at some point we need to lock down and state
that Layout version 2 is never going to change, and then people who
want changes can go work on CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_3.  

The problem with calling CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is that people think
that since it's deprecated, it should be turned off, but if we have
staged major version numbers, with guarantees of absolute stability
once a particular major version number is locked down, then it may
make it a lot easier to talk about what version of hal and udev and
Network Manager is really needed for different versions.  

					- Ted

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Andrew Morton]

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:56:25 -0500
Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:

> So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs,
> or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to
> sysfs.

Perhaps using a config option wasn't the right way to do this - a kernel
boot parameter might be better.

In fact, one could envisage a kernel boot parameter "sysfs_version=N" which 
will allow distro people to select the sysfs-of-the-day which works with their
userspace.

Because it does appear that we need _something_ which will get us away from this
ongoing problem of needing to keep the kernel and userspace synchronised across
sysfs changes.

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 05:08:49PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:56:25 -0500
> Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> > So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs,
> > or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to
> > sysfs.
> 
> Perhaps using a config option wasn't the right way to do this - a kernel
> boot parameter might be better.

Ok, I have no problem with that if people really want it.  But give me
the option to also make it a config option so I don't have to change our
bootloaders too.

Does that sound acceptable?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Andrew Morton]

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:17:09 -0800
Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 05:08:49PM -0800, Andrew Morton wrote:
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 19:56:25 -0500
> > Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs,
> > > or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to
> > > sysfs.
> > 
> > Perhaps using a config option wasn't the right way to do this - a kernel
> > boot parameter might be better.
> 
> Ok, I have no problem with that if people really want it.  But give me
> the option to also make it a config option so I don't have to change our
> bootloaders too.

Sometimes we provide a config option which provides the default version of
the boot option.  So:

	CONFIG_SYSFS_VERSION=1.2

and

	if (user_provided_sysfs_version == NULL)
		user_provided_sysfs_version = CONFIG_SYSFS_VERSION;


> Does that sound acceptable?

If we make CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED just a boolean boot option then that
fixes this problem (we hope) but won't help us next time we want to change
something.

It all depends on whether sysfs is finished yet ;)

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:56:25PM -0500, Theodore Tso wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:37:15PM -0800, Greg KH wrote:
> > But I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT COMPATIBLE!!!
> > 
> > That's what that config option is there for.  If you happen to be
> > running a newer userspace, a different distro than what is in Debian
> > right now, or don't use HAL and Networkmanager, then disable that
> > option.  Then all of sysfs looks just like it used to, no user visble
> > changes at all.  It doesn't get any more compatible than that.
> 
> This is great, but I think the real problem isn't the config option,
> but what is changing if the config option isn't enabled.  The claim
> which some, including Matt and Bron, seem to be making is that if you
> turn *off* CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, you must be using at least hal
> 0.5.9-rc1, released ***yesterday***, or suffer breakages for at least
> some system configurations.

Ok, well that has been proven incorrect.  I originally thought it was
HAL that had the problem, but I think that is not true, as I am using
the older version of hal here (0.5.7.1) just fine.

> So the problem with putting a date in Kconfig.txt help file, or in
> Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt, is that if there are other
> incompatible changes which are added to sysfs in say, December 2007 or
> January 2008, but which are papered over with CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED,
> and then come June 2008, CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is unceremoniously
> ripped out, then users will get screwed.  
> 
> So the question really is are we really done making changes to sysfs,
> or maybe what we should do is talk about major version numbers to
> sysfs.  Call what we have currently not CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED, but
> rather CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_1.  At the moment, CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_2 is
> undergoing changes, but at some point we need to lock down and state
> that Layout version 2 is never going to change, and then people who
> want changes can go work on CONFIG_SYSFS_LAYOUT_3.  
> 
> The problem with calling CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED is that people think
> that since it's deprecated, it should be turned off, but if we have
> staged major version numbers, with guarantees of absolute stability
> once a particular major version number is locked down, then it may
> make it a lot easier to talk about what version of hal and udev and
> Network Manager is really needed for different versions.  

This is what Documentation/ABI/ has tried to nail down, unfortunatly it
has turned out to be very hard to track down all of the odd userspace
programs that use sysfs and see what they are relying on.  We are slowly
fixing things, as is proof in the OpenSuSE and Gentoo releases.

And I'll be the first to admit that the ABI/ directory needs some
flushing out...

And it isn't really a whole different layout, the only problem here is
that a directory has turned into a symlink, so programs that were not
written that well (and I'll be the first to admit that I made the same
mistake in udev many years ago) and can't handle the change.

So numerous programs "just work" fine, but for a limited few, they have
problems, hence the config option so that nothing will break.

And if you look in the ABI/ directory, it describes this usage of the
class devices in sysfs.  But again, no one is flushing out the users of
these features, or even reading the stuff that is there...

So, again, a better wording for the CONFIG help text anyone?  Or a
better name for the CONFIG value itself?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Recent wireless breakage (ipw2200, iwconfig, NetworkManager)

[Joel Becker]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 04:46:09PM +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 01:13:26AM -0600, Matt Mackall wrote:
> > That's not the point. The point is that Debian/unstable as of _this
> > morning_ doesn't work. For reference, I'm running both the latest
> > releases of both hal (0.5.8.1-6.1) and network-manager (0.6.4-6). And
> > there are people telling me I need a copy of HAL out of git that
> > hasn't even been released for Debian to package. Debian isn't the
> > problem here.
> 
>   hal 0.5.9-rc1 (released, not from git) should work. It will be
> problably released soon and picked by sane distributions. Debian is very
> irritating corner case.

	As of right now, Fedora Core 6 has hal-0.5.8.1-6.fc6.  This is also
too old.  Please, stop claiming that Debian unstable is some corner
case.  No one is talking about Debian stable here.  No one is talking
about the Enterprise versions of Red Hat or SuSE (you'd find them just
as irritating with modern kernels).  Debian unstable tracks released
code as fast or faster than Fedora and OpenSuSE.  They all keep up with
releases.
	But the last release of hal is 0.5.8.1.  _Release_, not "release
candidate".  You can't break that.  You can't break it for a while, if
you want a sane deprecation schedule.  These are userspace interfaces.
	Matt is absolutely correct that you should't deprecate a
userspace<->kernel interface before you've even provided a release of
the tool that detects the change!

Joel

-- 

"When ideas fail, words come in very handy." 
         - Goethe

Joel Becker
Principal Software Developer
Oracle
E-mail: joel.becker@oracle.com
Phone: (650) 506-8127