Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Randy Dunlap]

On 07/16/13 15:43, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> 
> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.

So it's polite enough to curse if you don't direct it at anyone
in particular?  I'm sensitive so I disagree.

-- 
~Randy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ric Wheeler]

On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
>>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
>>> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
>>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.
>> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand,
>> but ...
>>
>> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
> Personal attacks are not cool Steve.  Some people simply don't care if a
> verbal tirade is directed at them.  Others do not want anyone to attack
> them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code.
>
> Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are
> discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally
> abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or
> intense belittling, demeaning comments about code.
>
> In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
> from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
> "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
>
> That is the problem.
>
> Sarah Sharp

The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less effective 
as a community.

Getting the balance right is clearly difficult in a large, diverse community, 
but I do think that the key is to focus criticism on the code or technical 
arguments and avoid attacks on the individual.

Being direct and funny in a critique is not the core of the issue,

Ric

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Myklebust, Trond]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8", Size: 2659 bytes --]

On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
> >>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
> >>> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
> >>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.
> >> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand,
> >> but ...
> >>
> >> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
> > Personal attacks are not cool Steve.  Some people simply don't care if a
> > verbal tirade is directed at them.  Others do not want anyone to attack
> > them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code.
> >
> > Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are
> > discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally
> > abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or
> > intense belittling, demeaning comments about code.
> >
> > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> > baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
> > from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
> > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> > written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> > point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
> >
> > That is the problem.
> >
> > Sarah Sharp
> 
> The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less effective 
> as a community.

Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this
community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and
have no problems with it.

Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting
_new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some
journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy
comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy
newbies.
On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people
of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of
a social scientist to help us find out...

-- 
Trond Myklebust
Linux NFS client maintainer

NetApp
Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com
www.netapp.com
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Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Jeff Liu]

On 07/17/2013 07:12 AM, Sarah Sharp wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
>>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
>>> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
>>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.
>>
>> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand,
>> but ...
>>
>> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
> 
> Personal attacks are not cool Steve.  Some people simply don't care if a
> verbal tirade is directed at them.  Others do not want anyone to attack
> them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code.

+1
I accept someone attaching my code, but it's better if he/she can
point me out why the code is stupid. :)

> 
> Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are
> discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally
> abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or
> intense belittling, demeaning comments about code.

I feel the same way.

> 
> In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
> from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
> "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.

Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.

For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
(In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 

This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.

So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(


Thanks,
-Jeff

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:

> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
> 
> For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
> people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
> happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
> patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
> (In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 
> 
> This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
> apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
> it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
> commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.
> 
> So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
> community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
> help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
> into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(

This is a completely different issue from the one in this thread, but it
is also a legitimate issue and honestly, a bigger one than perceived
insults.

Is it proper collaboration? Absolutely not. Something that I try to be
sensitive to as it's something I can do as well. There's been things on
my todo list, where someone would send me patches that do it. I would be
thinking "darn it, I wanted to do it" and even worse, the patches that
were sent wouldn't be of the way I wanted them. But I've tried to be
good, and instead of just going about and implementing it myself, I
would try to help the person massage the patches into what I wanted.
That takes a lot of effort and discipline, and honestly, helping someone
else do the work you wanted is much harder than just doing it yourself. 

Sometimes the maintainer just takes the easier route, and does the work
themselves (because it's also more fun too). But that's really a slap in
the face of the person that submitted the work in the first place. If
anything hurts the community, it's this behavior. Not Linus giving
someone an ass wipe.

-- Steve
 

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ric Wheeler]

On 07/16/2013 07:53 PM, Myklebust, Trond wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
>> On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating their
>>>>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
>>>>> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
>>>>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.
>>>> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand,
>>>> but ...
>>>>
>>>> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
>>> Personal attacks are not cool Steve.  Some people simply don't care if a
>>> verbal tirade is directed at them.  Others do not want anyone to attack
>>> them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code.
>>>
>>> Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are
>>> discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally
>>> abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or
>>> intense belittling, demeaning comments about code.
>>>
>>> In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
>>> baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
>>> from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
>>> "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
>>> written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
>>> point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
>>>
>>> That is the problem.
>>>
>>> Sarah Sharp
>> The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less effective
>> as a community.
> Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this
> community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and
> have no problems with it.

You should never judge success by being popular with those people who are 
already contributing and put up with things. If you did that in business, you 
would never reach new customers.

>
> Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting
> _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some
> journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy
> comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy
> newbies.

That is my point - recruiting new members is made harder. As some one who 
manages *a lot* of upstream kernel developers, I will add that it is not just 
new comers that find this occasionally offensive and off putting.

> On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people
> of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of
> a social scientist to help us find out...
>

To be fair, we usually do very well at this, especially with new comers to our 
community.

I think that most of the problems come up between people who know each other 
quite well and are friendly with each other in person. The problem is that when 
you use language that you would use with good friends over drinks to tell them 
they are being stupid and do that on a public list, you set a tone that reaches 
far beyond your intended target. All of those new comers also read this list and 
do not see it as funny or friendly.

I really don't think that we have to be politically correct or overly kind to 
make things better.

As a very low bar, we could start by trying to avoid using language that would 
get you fired when you send off an email to someone that you have power over 
(either manage directly or indirectly control their career).

Ric

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Sarah Sharp]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:51:36PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> 
> > Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> > here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
> > 
> > For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
> > people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
> > happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
> > patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
> > (In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 
> > 
> > This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
> > apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
> > it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
> > commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.
> > 
> > So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
> > community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
> > help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
> > into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(
> 
> This is a completely different issue from the one in this thread, but it
> is also a legitimate issue and honestly, a bigger one than perceived
> insults.
> 
> Is it proper collaboration? Absolutely not. Something that I try to be
> sensitive to as it's something I can do as well. There's been things on
> my todo list, where someone would send me patches that do it. I would be
> thinking "darn it, I wanted to do it" and even worse, the patches that
> were sent wouldn't be of the way I wanted them. But I've tried to be
> good, and instead of just going about and implementing it myself, I
> would try to help the person massage the patches into what I wanted.
> That takes a lot of effort and discipline, and honestly, helping someone
> else do the work you wanted is much harder than just doing it yourself. 
>
> Sometimes the maintainer just takes the easier route, and does the work
> themselves (because it's also more fun too). But that's really a slap in
> the face of the person that submitted the work in the first place. If
> anything hurts the community, it's this behavior. Not Linus giving
> someone an ass wipe.

/me hands Steve a box of wet-wipes. :)

There's a lot of controversy over whether a senior developer
re-implementing someone's patchset is bad behavior.  I've seen it argued
both ways.  "If I don't write code, I will just become a patch-pushing,
pencil-pushing maintainer."  Or "I don't want to bother working with
newbies, it's faster to just implement this myself."

I really think it's up to the maintainer whether they want to mentor
someone through a big submission, or do it themselves.  I usually lean
towards mentorship, but hey, not everyone has the time.

One thing that might make it easier for the original submitter is making
sure they get a Signed-off-by line in the patchset that the maintainer
submits.  At the very least, their line should be directly below the
maintainer's.  That way, they get credit for the idea, and possibly help
improve their statistics in the Signed-off-by count for that kernel
revision.

I suspect people would object if I suggested the original submitter
should be the first Signed-off-by line, but in some cases it may be
appropriate.  Sometimes I take someone's code, leave it mostly intact,
and fix the bugs or add a feature that we really need before the code
can land.  In that case, it makes sense to give the original submitter
credit before the maintainer.

Sarah Sharp

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:51:36PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> 
> > Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> > here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
> > 
> > For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
> > people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
> > happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
> > patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
> > (In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 
> > 
> > This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
> > apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
> > it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
> > commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.
> > 
> > So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
> > community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
> > help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
> > into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(
> 
> This is a completely different issue from the one in this thread, but it
> is also a legitimate issue and honestly, a bigger one than perceived
> insults.
> 
> Is it proper collaboration? Absolutely not. Something that I try to be
> sensitive to as it's something I can do as well. There's been things on
> my todo list, where someone would send me patches that do it. I would be
> thinking "darn it, I wanted to do it" and even worse, the patches that
> were sent wouldn't be of the way I wanted them. But I've tried to be
> good, and instead of just going about and implementing it myself, I
> would try to help the person massage the patches into what I wanted.
> That takes a lot of effort and discipline, and honestly, helping someone
> else do the work you wanted is much harder than just doing it yourself. 
> 
> Sometimes the maintainer just takes the easier route, and does the work
> themselves (because it's also more fun too). But that's really a slap in
> the face of the person that submitted the work in the first place. If
> anything hurts the community, it's this behavior. Not Linus giving
> someone an ass wipe.

I'm used to practice a workaround for this issue on another project. When
a newcomer sends me wrong code trying to address a real issue, I first
spend a little time helping him/her. If I see that the gap is too large
for him/her to adapt his/her work without too much help from me, then I
do the work myself, propose to him/her and once it's OK, and ask him/her
to submit the work with his/her name. That way they quickly gain trust
in themselves, more easily feel part of the community and get a clearer
idea of what is needed. Generally patches quality significantly improves
with this, in very short time, because they realize the gap is huge and
that they won't get this chance often.

My principle is to value the effort more than the result. If the first
author spent one week digging into the code to identify an issue and
came up with the wrong fix, and I can fix it in 5 minutes, he certainly
deserves all the merits for the work, not me.

I don't believe this is that much practiced on LKML. I know at least
one developer who does this, but he's probably the exception. I more
often see counter proposals just as if two authors were fighting to
get their patch merged.

Willy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[CAI Qian]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Trond Myklebust" <Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com>
> To: "Ric Wheeler" <ricwheeler@gmail.com>
> Cc: "Sarah Sharp" <sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com>, "David Lang" <david@lang.hm>,
> ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, "Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>, "Darren Hart"
> <dvhart@linux.intel.com>, "Ingo Molnar" <mingo@kernel.org>, "Olivier Galibert" <galibert@pobox.com>, "Linux Kernel
> Mailing List" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, "stable" <stable@vger.kernel.org>, "Linus Torvalds"
> <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, "Willy Tarreau" <w@1wt.eu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:53:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
> 
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Yes, that's true.  Some kernel developers are better at moderating
> > >>> their
> > >>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive".  Others
> > >>> simply don't give a shit.  So we need to figure out how to meet
> > >>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility.
> > >> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand,
> > >> but ...
> > >>
> > >> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here?
> > > Personal attacks are not cool Steve.  Some people simply don't care if a
> > > verbal tirade is directed at them.  Others do not want anyone to attack
> > > them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code.
> > >
> > > Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are
> > > discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally
> > > abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or
> > > intense belittling, demeaning comments about code.
> > >
> > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> > > baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
> > > from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
> > > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> > > written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> > > point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
> > >
> > > That is the problem.
> > >
> > > Sarah Sharp
> > 
> > The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less
> > effective
> > as a community.
> 
> Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this
> community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and
> have no problems with it.
> 
> Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting
> _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some
> journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy
> comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy
> newbies.
> On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people
> of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of
> a social scientist to help us find out...
Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
> 
> --
> Trond Myklebust
> Linux NFS client maintainer
> 
> NetApp
> Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com
> www.netapp.com
> N�����r��y���b�X��ǧv�^�)޺{.n�+������z)���w*jg��������ݢj/���z�ޖ��2�ޙ���&�)ߡ�a��\x7f���G���h��j:+v���w�٥

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Dan Carpenter]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:49:27PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> The etiquette on the lkml is by far the roughest of them all. It's the
> "bad neighborhood with guns" of the Open Source world. You never know
> when you are going to get a bullet, but sooner or later you'll get one.

Only Andrew Morton actually reads LKML.  These days kernel dev work
takes place on subsystem lists.  I wonder if some mailing lists are
worse than others?  From what I have seen people are mostly civil.

regards,
dan carpenter

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Jeff Liu]

On 07/17/2013 08:51 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:

> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> 
>> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
>> here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
>>
>> For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
>> people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
>> happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
>> patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
>> (In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 
>>
>> This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
>> apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
>> it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
>> commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.
>>
>> So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
>> community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
>> help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
>> into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(
> 
> This is a completely different issue from the one in this thread, but it
> is also a legitimate issue and honestly, a bigger one than perceived
> insults.
> 
> Is it proper collaboration? Absolutely not. Something that I try to be
> sensitive to as it's something I can do as well. There's been things on
> my todo list, where someone would send me patches that do it. I would be
> thinking "darn it, I wanted to do it" and even worse, the patches that
> were sent wouldn't be of the way I wanted them. But I've tried to be
> good, and instead of just going about and implementing it myself, I
> would try to help the person massage the patches into what I wanted.

It's kind of you. Generally, most forks are nice enough in helping others.
Actually, I only noticed once of something like that the year before.
Well, I just received an offline email from my college a fews hours ago as
she checked this topic and unfortunately, she has experienced the same thing
a few days ago.

> That takes a lot of effort and discipline, and honestly, helping someone
> else do the work you wanted is much harder than just doing it yourself. 

Exactly, so I always appreciate the patch reviewers.

Thanks,
-Jeff

> 
> Sometimes the maintainer just takes the easier route, and does the work
> themselves (because it's also more fun too). But that's really a slap in
> the face of the person that submitted the work in the first place. If
> anything hurts the community, it's this behavior. Not Linus giving
> someone an ass wipe.
> 
> -- Steve
>  
> 

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[James Bottomley]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 17:15 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> On 07/17/2013 08:51 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
> > 
> >> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
> >> here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
> >>
> >> For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
> >> people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
> >> happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
> >> patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
> >> (In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 
> >>
> >> This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
> >> apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
> >> it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
> >> commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.
> >>
> >> So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
> >> community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
> >> help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
> >> into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(
> > 
> > This is a completely different issue from the one in this thread, but it
> > is also a legitimate issue and honestly, a bigger one than perceived
> > insults.
> > 
> > Is it proper collaboration? Absolutely not. Something that I try to be
> > sensitive to as it's something I can do as well. There's been things on
> > my todo list, where someone would send me patches that do it. I would be
> > thinking "darn it, I wanted to do it" and even worse, the patches that
> > were sent wouldn't be of the way I wanted them. But I've tried to be
> > good, and instead of just going about and implementing it myself, I
> > would try to help the person massage the patches into what I wanted.
> 
> It's kind of you. Generally, most forks are nice enough in helping others.
> Actually, I only noticed once of something like that the year before.
> Well, I just received an offline email from my college a fews hours ago as
> she checked this topic and unfortunately, she has experienced the same thing
> a few days ago.

If you want a quiet investigation, I or one of the other maintainers can
do it offline (you'll need to send the details via private email). Just
for your information, though, I've done this sort of thing before too.
This is probably the most egregious example:

http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=2908d778ab3e244900c310974e1fc1c69066e450

James

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Jeff Liu]

On 07/17/2013 06:58 PM, James Bottomley wrote:

> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 17:15 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>> On 07/17/2013 08:51 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:32 +0800, Jeff Liu wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another thing might deviated from the main theme, but I'd like to raise it
>>>> here because I would like to see what's the proper way for that.
>>>>
>>>> For instance, people A posted a patch set to the mailing list at first,
>>>> people B think that there are some issues in A's implementation, and he
>>>> happened to play around the same stuff recently, so he submitted another
>>>> patch series.  Finally, people B made it.
>>>> (In that period, people A kept silent, maybe because he/she was unhappy) 
>>>>
>>>> This is a actual occurrence I once observed from a subsystem list(my
>>>> apologies, I just want to talk this case rather than against somebody),
>>>> it seems people A is a new comer(because I can not searched any past
>>>> commits of him/her from the git log), people B is definitely a senior guy.
>>>>
>>>> So that's my question, is that a proper collaboration form in kernel
>>>> community?  Does it better if people B could give some suggestions to
>>>> help A to improve the code, especially if those help would help A stepping
>>>> into the kernel development -- maybe it's depend largely on one's opinion. :(
>>>
>>> This is a completely different issue from the one in this thread, but it
>>> is also a legitimate issue and honestly, a bigger one than perceived
>>> insults.
>>>
>>> Is it proper collaboration? Absolutely not. Something that I try to be
>>> sensitive to as it's something I can do as well. There's been things on
>>> my todo list, where someone would send me patches that do it. I would be
>>> thinking "darn it, I wanted to do it" and even worse, the patches that
>>> were sent wouldn't be of the way I wanted them. But I've tried to be
>>> good, and instead of just going about and implementing it myself, I
>>> would try to help the person massage the patches into what I wanted.
>>
>> It's kind of you. Generally, most forks are nice enough in helping others.
>> Actually, I only noticed once of something like that the year before.
>> Well, I just received an offline email from my college a fews hours ago as
>> she checked this topic and unfortunately, she has experienced the same thing
>> a few days ago.
> 
> If you want a quiet investigation, I or one of the other maintainers can
> do it offline (you'll need to send the details via private email). Just
> for your information, though, I've done this sort of thing before too.
> This is probably the most egregious example:

I'll send out those info for your investigation in a little while.

Thanks,
-Jeff

 

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:51 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:

> I don't believe this is that much practiced on LKML. I know at least
> one developer who does this, but he's probably the exception. I more
> often see counter proposals just as if two authors were fighting to
> get their patch merged.

And getting cursed out on LKML is also the exception and not the rule.
But it's the bad apples that seem to stand out. People say how horrible
LKML is, but as mentioned in the thread, Slashdot is a much worse place
to post than LKML. The difference with LKML is that you may deserve the
cursing you get.

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ricardo Ferreira]

Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.


On 17 July 2013 13:21, Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:51 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> > I don't believe this is that much practiced on LKML. I know at least
> > one developer who does this, but he's probably the exception. I more
> > often see counter proposals just as if two authors were fighting to
> > get their patch merged.
>
> And getting cursed out on LKML is also the exception and not the rule.
> But it's the bad apples that seem to stand out. People say how horrible
> LKML is, but as mentioned in the thread, Slashdot is a much worse place
> to post than LKML. The difference with LKML is that you may deserve the
> cursing you get.
>
> -- Steve
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.

Point taken.

I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to
modify it a bit as it wasn't meant to be public.


When I started sending patches to LKML it was not the cursing I was
afraid of, it was the possibility of top notch developers pointing out
my flaws. Linux is intimidating not because it can be harsh, but because
its the big league. You are posting code not only to the world but also
to some of the best programmers on the planet, and frankly, that's
really scary. And I think that's the real reason people who are shy tend
not to want to participate. They use the harshness of LKML as an excuse,
but I think it's really that they may be insecure about their own work
and how it will compare with the best of the best.

Both my wife and I have done karate for decades. My wife has even won a
national tournament. She can do demos without a problem, but when she
has to get up in front of other top black belts, she's a nervous wreck.
She's her biggest critic, but she tends to know that when performing in
front of people as good as she is, or better, they can see her flaws as
much as she can. That is intimidating.

The point I'm making is that we need to find out what is preventing good
developers from joining the Linux community. Is it really the harshness
of the project, or is it because we expect you to have the best code,
and you will not be accepted if you are not that good. And I do not want
people joining that are not good programmers.

The answer is not to bash Linus into being a nice guy (which seems to be
what Sarah's trying to do), but we can get mentors or even "scouts" to
look for people of talent and help them get into the community. What
those people need is not a nicer LKML that will let mediocre developers
in, but someone that recognizes their talent and encourages them to
join, by reinforcing to them how good of a developer they are. I've
helped people this way. Talented programmers that were unsure of
themselves, and they have done extremely well in our community.

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> > Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.
> 
> Point taken.
> 
> I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to
> modify it a bit as it wasn't meant to be public.
> 
> 
> When I started sending patches to LKML it was not the cursing I was
> afraid of, it was the possibility of top notch developers pointing out
> my flaws. Linux is intimidating not because it can be harsh, but because
> its the big league. You are posting code not only to the world but also
> to some of the best programmers on the planet, and frankly, that's
> really scary. And I think that's the real reason people who are shy tend
> not to want to participate. They use the harshness of LKML as an excuse,
> but I think it's really that they may be insecure about their own work
> and how it will compare with the best of the best.
> 
> Both my wife and I have done karate for decades. My wife has even won a
> national tournament. She can do demos without a problem, but when she
> has to get up in front of other top black belts, she's a nervous wreck.
> She's her biggest critic, but she tends to know that when performing in
> front of people as good as she is, or better, they can see her flaws as
> much as she can. That is intimidating.
> 
> The point I'm making is that we need to find out what is preventing good
> developers from joining the Linux community. Is it really the harshness
> of the project, or is it because we expect you to have the best code,
> and you will not be accepted if you are not that good. And I do not want
> people joining that are not good programmers.
> 
> The answer is not to bash Linus into being a nice guy (which seems to be
> what Sarah's trying to do), but we can get mentors or even "scouts" to
> look for people of talent and help them get into the community. What
> those people need is not a nicer LKML that will let mediocre developers
> in, but someone that recognizes their talent and encourages them to
> join, by reinforcing to them how good of a developer they are. I've
> helped people this way. Talented programmers that were unsure of
> themselves, and they have done extremely well in our community.

+1

Willy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Paul Gortmaker]

On 13-07-16 07:38 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:12 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> 

[...]

> 
>>   We need to define what behavior we want
>> from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
>> "don't break userspace"
> 
> Yes, those do need to be documented.

Actually, they are already documented. See "Regressions" section in the
file Documentation/development-process/4.Coding

Paul.
--

> 
> 
>>  and "no personal attacks".
> 
> I actually disagree with this. What I would say this instead: "try to
> keep it technical and focus on the code. If you are upset at someone,
> think twice before hitting send. But if you really think this is the
> only way to deal with the situation, then that's your call, and you get
> to deal with the consequences."
> 
> I don't think changing peoples behavior is going to work. It wont. You
> don't want to change who you are, others don't want to change who they
> are. Deal with it. But what we can do is just try to educate people on
> what policies are needed to be a maintainer and code submitter (there is
> documentation already on some of this), and then point it to people. If
> people continue to ignore those after being shown, then yes, personal
> attacks are then in order.
> 
> 
>>   That needs to be
>> written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
>> point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
> 
> Well, SubmittingPatches is there, but we should have a MaintainerRules
> or something.
> 
>>
>> That is the problem.
> 
> We can always use better documentation.
> 
> -- Steve
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ksummit-2013-discuss mailing list
> Ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-2013-discuss
> 
> 

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Sarah Sharp]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:36:36AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> > > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the
> > > > baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we want
> > > > from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions" and
> > > > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> > > > written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> > > > point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
> > > >
> > > > That is the problem.
> > > >
> > > > Sarah Sharp
> > > 
> > > The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less
> > > effective
> > > as a community.
> > 
> > Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this
> > community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and
> > have no problems with it.
> > 
> > Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting
> > _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some
> > journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy
> > comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy
> > newbies.
> >
> > On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people
> > of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of
> > a social scientist to help us find out...
>
> Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?

No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with
shit".  We need a better pipeline for people who can work together
civilly, and still get shit done.

I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development,
through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.  They slowly get introduced
to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate
mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel
mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists.
We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have
even more the next round.

So deal with it.  You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel
community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal
abuse.  If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women
or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop.

Sarah Sharp

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Sarah Sharp]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> The point I'm making is that we need to find out what is preventing good
> developers from joining the Linux community. Is it really the harshness
> of the project, or is it because we expect you to have the best code,
> and you will not be accepted if you are not that good. And I do not want
> people joining that are not good programmers.

Or does our documentation for getting new developers on board suck?  Or
do we simply need to have more mentors to help newcomers move from their
first checkpatch cleanup patch to larger projects?  Or do minorities
simply choose not to participate, because they see homophobic emails
like the 'deep throat' email, and decide they're likely to face racism
or sexism on the mailing list as well?

There are a lot of reasons newcomers don't want to join, or don't feel
they can join.  Unless we did some sort of survey to ask why people
don't participate, we won't know why they aren't.

Oh, BTW, someone did do an informal survey on why people do or don't
contribute to open source project.  They gave a talk at Open Source
Bridge entitled, "No, I won't contribute to your OS project".  You can
see the results of her poll, and her talk here:

https://www.zotero.org/groups/obridge_2013_os_contrib
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6vjtx1zcdzejgw/foss_contributions.pdf

> The answer is not to bash Linus into being a nice guy (which seems to be
> what Sarah's trying to do), but we can get mentors or even "scouts" to
> look for people of talent and help them get into the community. What
> those people need is not a nicer LKML that will let mediocre developers
> in, but someone that recognizes their talent and encourages them to
> join, by reinforcing to them how good of a developer they are. I've
> helped people this way. Talented programmers that were unsure of
> themselves, and they have done extremely well in our community.

Are you volunteering to be a mentor for the FOSS Outreach Program for
Women? ;)  I will happily take more mentors for the next round in
November!

http://kernelnewbies.org/OPWIntro

Sarah Sharp

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:

> > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
> 
> No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with
> shit".  We need a better pipeline for people who can work together
> civilly, and still get shit done.
> 
> I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development,
> through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.  They slowly get introduced
> to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate
> mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel
> mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists.
> We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have
> even more the next round.
> 
> So deal with it.  You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel
> community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal
> abuse.  If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women
> or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop.
> 

I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
don't mean in this thread.

You pointed out a few examples of Linus, and it usually comes from
someone that should know better being told not to do something, and they
continue to do it, and then finally Linus blows up. Linus doesn't start
his cursing at the first email. It takes a few to show that you deserve
a blow up.

Usually sensitive developers would listen the first time they are told.
It's more of the thick skin developers that push the envelope. But I
understand, its the "image" that bothers you.

The scariest thing about Linux kernel development is that because its so
successful, and the development is so open to the world (you are
programming on a stage in a world theater), that thin skin people may
not be comfortable in that environment. What we need are mentors, and
educate people that Linux really isn't that harsh, and that the new
developers actually do have talent, and shouldn't be afraid to post
their code.

The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
to get a wider range of developers.

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 08:02 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:

> Are you volunteering to be a mentor for the FOSS Outreach Program for
> Women? ;)  I will happily take more mentors for the next round in
> November!

If you have someone interested in Real Time OS development. Sure!

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Stefano Stabellini]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> to get a wider range of developers.

Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?

I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Felipe Contreras]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini
<stefano.stabellini@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
>> to get a wider range of developers.
>
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?

Can you please stop calling open communication abuse? First you have
to explain *why* it was improper in order to call it abuse, and in the
few examples that have been shown, it has been explained that the
behavior was justified (breaking the #1 rule by a lieutenant who
should know better).

> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.

You can think whatever you want, others have already shown that
changing the tone of the message in the examples would have changed
the desired effect.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 18:00 +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > to get a wider range of developers.
> 
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
> 
> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.

Matters what you definition of verbally abusive is. Can I say "your code
is crap!"? I've done that before, and the person I said it to asked me
to explain why it was crap, and I went into detail to why I called it
crap and still think it was crap.

But I'm not even one to insult people, as that's not my personality.
Well, maybe I've called people "idiot" before. But that usually comes
with someone sticking to an idea when all evidence proves otherwise.

Although I'm one of the tame ones on LKML, I still want to reserve my
right to be able to call someone an idiot, if someone is making stupid
ideas and constantly ignores facts that are being presented to them.

Anyway, as I've said several times. Is there a problem here? Besides the
few outbursts from Linus, is there other examples on LKML within the
last year where it is an abusive environment?  From what I see, it is
becoming more mellow, and people have been making efforts to listen to
each other. The trend on LKML is going in the right direction, so I'm a
bit curious to why we need to make such an issue of this. Is it just to
make Linus lower his tone a bit?

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Randy Dunlap]

On 07/16/13 22:32, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:22:38PM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
>> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 21:48 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>
>>> Guys, I love my job. The kernel developer community is great. But I
>>> suspect that some of you don't necessarily think about the other side.
>>> I had slashdot discussing my abusive relationship with my wife and
>>> kids thanks to Sarah's comments. Talk about having a thick skin -
>>> trust me when I tell you that I get as well as I give out.
>>
>> That's awful. People suck. I stopped reading slashdot years ago for the
>> quality of the content and commentary, apparently it has not improved.
> 
> Slashdot, Hacker News, and Reddit are all cesspools.  I would much
> rather discuss this topic on LKML or at KS than wade through that muck.
> 
> Bah, let's settle this at KS, away from the court of public opinion.

The only advantage to that is that it is face to face.
The big disadvantage is that it leaves out several hundred (or thousdand)
people.

IOW, I would rather see continued discussion.  Or the patch.  :)


-- 
~Randy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> What we need are mentors, and educate people that Linux really isn't
> that harsh, and that the new developers actually do have talent, and
> shouldn't be afraid to post their code.

Hey, this is exactly the goal that we seek at the Kernel Recipes
conference in France [1] whose second edition happens in September
this year, and we're still looking for a few speakers. If some
developers want to explain how they were mentored or how they
mentored others, they're welcome! Please contact me off-list.

Willy

[1] https://kernel-recipes.org/

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Stefano Stabellini]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini
> <stefano.stabellini@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> >> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> >> to get a wider range of developers.
> >
> > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
> 
> Can you please stop calling open communication abuse?

Open communication is one thing, abuse is another, so I agree with you
there.


> First you have
> to explain *why* it was improper in order to call it abuse, and in the
> few examples that have been shown, it has been explained that the
> behavior was justified (breaking the #1 rule by a lieutenant who
> should know better).

Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse.
The Oxford dictionary gives me:

"speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way"

For example I think that calling somebody a moron qualifies.



> > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.
> 
> You can think whatever you want, others have already shown that
> changing the tone of the message in the examples would have changed
> the desired effect.
 
I disagree and it is certainly not the case in my experience.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Al Viro]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:00:46PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > to get a wider range of developers.
> 
> Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?

No.

> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.

At the risk of sounding pedantic...  The above is true *and* irrelevant
as stated, and any attempts to read it in less irrelevant way result
in statements that are absolutely non-obvious and very likely false.
	* some amount of bad code will be getting into the kernel, in
any scenario short of complete cessation of development
	* there certainly are ways to prevent any given bad code from
getting into the kernel, once you have identified it.  Even leaving
aside completely ridiculous ones ("after WW3 nobody will push that into
the tree", etc.), one can always watch all trees for specific code and
refuse to pull if it has slipped in.
	* "once you have identified it" part of the above is essential
and does not scale.
In other words, it's not "can we stop it from happening", it's "how
much will be slippling in with given setup".  And _this_ is where your
position becomes completely unfounded.  It's not at all clear that
vague alternatives being proposed will *not* result in more crap getting
in.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 10:41 -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:

> The big disadvantage is that it leaves out several hundred (or thousdand)
> people.

I see that as an advantage ;-)

We could video tape it for the entertainment value.

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Felipe Contreras]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stefano Stabellini
<stefano.stabellini@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Stefano Stabellini
>> <stefano.stabellini@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> >> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
>> >> to get a wider range of developers.
>> >
>> > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
>>
>> Can you please stop calling open communication abuse?
>
> Open communication is one thing, abuse is another, so I agree with you
> there.

You call it abuse, others don't.

>> First you have
>> to explain *why* it was improper in order to call it abuse, and in the
>> few examples that have been shown, it has been explained that the
>> behavior was justified (breaking the #1 rule by a lieutenant who
>> should know better).
>
> Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
> Two wrongs don't make a right.
>
> So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse.
> The Oxford dictionary gives me:
>
> "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way"

Here's another definition from Merriam Webster:

* language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately,
and angrily

That definition fits my idea of abuse. Linus was not unjust, so it's not abuse.

> For example I think that calling somebody a moron qualifies.

I don't, specially if the person is indeed being a moron.

>> > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
>> > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.
>>
>> You can think whatever you want, others have already shown that
>> changing the tone of the message in the examples would have changed
>> the desired effect.
>
> I disagree and it is certainly not the case in my experience.

Suit yourself.

If want you wanted was to voice your opinion, I think you have already
done that.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

RE: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Luck, Tony]

> Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide
> is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better,
> and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the
> Linux kernel, that demonstrates that suppressing swearing has a
> positive effect in the community, I'd say all you have is an
> *opinion*.

1) There isn't going to be any hard evidence - this isn't a physics problem,
or even an engineering problem. It's a social problem.  There are no other
collaborative groups sufficiently similar to the Linux kernel community, so there
are no studies that would be relevant. Asking for the impossible is just a
lame delaying tactic.

2) Sarah hasn't even asked to cut down on the swearing - so why mention
it at all? Did you even read the thread?

So I shall (for comedic effect) indulge in my own (uncharacteristic) bit
of name calling and dub thee a troll (and every other bad thing that anyone
is ever alleged of calling another on LKML, just to be sure).

-Tony

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Al Viro]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:

> Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.

Depends on details of your definition of abuse.

> So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse.
> The Oxford dictionary gives me:
> 
> "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way"

Insufficient details to tell if the statement above is correct.
Insulting and offensive to *whom*?

I have seen people making completely revolting statements about
e.g. females in general and get extremely insulted when said
statements had been described as sexist, no matter how neutral
had description been.  I have seen people deeply insulted by
being told (in absolutely neutral expressions) that recipe they
had offered for some task will not do what they said it would,
when the simple experiment (reproduced by a lot of people
present) would have clearly demonstrated just that.  The same
people tend to get _really_ insulted when somebody reports
the result of said experiment.  And anybody who'd been on
the net for a year (hell, a month would suffice) can bring
a lot more interesting cases...

BTW, is it an abuse to describe somebody as a demagogue?

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Felipe Contreras]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Luck, Tony <tony.luck@intel.com> wrote:
>> Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide
>> is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better,
>> and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the
>> Linux kernel, that demonstrates that suppressing swearing has a
>> positive effect in the community, I'd say all you have is an
>> *opinion*.
>
> 1) There isn't going to be any hard evidence - this isn't a physics problem,
> or even an engineering problem. It's a social problem.  There are no other
> collaborative groups sufficiently similar to the Linux kernel community, so there
> are no studies that would be relevant. Asking for the impossible is just a
> lame delaying tactic.

There is evidence for social problems and their solutions, but anyway,
so in fact Sarah doesn't *know* if changing that behavior would be
beneficial or detrimental to the project.

> 2) Sarah hasn't even asked to cut down on the swearing - so why mention
> it at all? Did you even read the thread?

She didn't ask, she essentially demanded[1]:

> I want everyone (including Linus) to be harsh with code but gentle with people.

Let's call things by their name; Sarah doesn't know if what she wants
will help the project, she merely thinks so. It is merely an
**opinion**, it is not backed by evidence, and it might be shared by
some Linux developers, but it's still just an opinion.

Linus already said he is not going to change, so that's that. Now the
only thing that remains open is the discussion about better ways to
work together, which probably will happen in the kernel summit, but I
think it's pretty clear that an official code of conduct that forbids
insulting either people or code is out of the question.

Cheers.

[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.stable/58443

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Sarah Sharp]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> 
> > > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> > > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> > > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
> > 
> > No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with
> > shit".  We need a better pipeline for people who can work together
> > civilly, and still get shit done.
> > 
> > I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development,
> > through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.  They slowly get introduced
> > to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate
> > mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel
> > mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists.
> > We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have
> > even more the next round.
> > 
> > So deal with it.  You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel
> > community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal
> > abuse.  If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women
> > or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop.
> > 
> 
> I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
> don't mean in this thread.

I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread.
But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well.

Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia:
https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626

And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live:
https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098

On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel
development, along with more than a few misogynist comments:

"You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered
to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It’s an opt-in community
and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor."

"You’re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T’so
first to criticize him for his behaviour."

"Drama Queen"

"The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over
yourself."

"shit, just what we need – a bitch running around crying about how hurt
her feelings are."

"Oy vey you poor goyi…girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that
being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have
done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters
negative views of minorities."

"This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech
world – because you’re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who
expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily
offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It’s real cute how
you’ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading
against “muh bigotry” and “muh intolerance.” You’re a feminist joke, one
in a very long line."


Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork.
It means I now have to book a rental car so I don't have to be on public
transit, and book a hotel room so I don't have to be home.  Those
crazies, especially the local Portland SW developer, can easily find my
home address from my blog domain name whois info.

Being a woman in open source, and speaking out, means I put my personal
safety in jeopardy.  I should not have to put up with this.  We should
be able to have a private conversation at KS without the court of public
opinion getting involved.  However, that's not the way it went, and now
I have to deal with the verbal abuse, sexist statements, and threats
that are the backlash from this thread.

> You pointed out a few examples of Linus, and it usually comes from
> someone that should know better being told not to do something, and they
> continue to do it, and then finally Linus blows up. Linus doesn't start
> his cursing at the first email. It takes a few to show that you deserve
> a blow up.
> 
> Usually sensitive developers would listen the first time they are told.
> It's more of the thick skin developers that push the envelope. But I
> understand, its the "image" that bothers you.

No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me.
For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll,
Lubin, EVER again.

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/42482

"You may be seen as a liability by Intel preaching "feminism" on a
public forum.  From their point of view: will you play the gender card
on them.  Here is what you did: Instead of realizing that I was being
_very_ sympathetic to a more diverse Linux development environment by
using the phrase "the old boys club", you pretended to take offense, not
realizing you're in fact becoming a liability.  That's okay. Honest
mistake."

Telling me my job at Intel is in jeopardy because I'm complaining about
sexist statements is a threat.  It's verbal abuse, and I won't take it.
I shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of statements and personal
attacks.

> The scariest thing about Linux kernel development is that because its so
> successful, and the development is so open to the world (you are
> programming on a stage in a world theater), that thin skin people may
> not be comfortable in that environment. What we need are mentors, and
> educate people that Linux really isn't that harsh, and that the new
> developers actually do have talent, and shouldn't be afraid to post
> their code.

We do need mentors.  Thank you for signing up to be one.

I disagree that we should educate people that Linux really isn't that
harsh.  We are technically harsh, and always will be.  Linux kernel
developers require perfect code, and perfectly formatted patches.
Setting up mentees to think otherwise is simply not advisable.  However,
we can assure them that they won't see harsh _personal_ attacks, and
coach them through dealing with their first harsh attacks against their
_code_.

> The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> to get a wider range of developers.

I agree.  We shouldn't lower our coding standards.  We should however,
take a very close look at our personal communication styles, in order to
ensure we aren't excluding a wide range of developers.

Sarah Sharp

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Sarah Sharp]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 01:28:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 18:00 +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > > to get a wider range of developers.
> > 
> > Can we stop bringing the quality of the code into the discussion?
> > 
> > I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> > in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.
> 
> Matters what you definition of verbally abusive is. Can I say "your code
> is crap!"? I've done that before, and the person I said it to asked me
> to explain why it was crap, and I went into detail to why I called it
> crap and still think it was crap.
> 
> But I'm not even one to insult people, as that's not my personality.
> Well, maybe I've called people "idiot" before. But that usually comes
> with someone sticking to an idea when all evidence proves otherwise.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.  I'm fine with calling
_code_ crap (or other forms of poop).  I'm fine with someone saying,
"Fix this fuck up, RIGHT NOW!"  I'm not fine with someone personally
attacking a developer and telling them to "SHUT THE FUCK UP!"

> Although I'm one of the tame ones on LKML, I still want to reserve my
> right to be able to call someone an idiot, if someone is making stupid
> ideas and constantly ignores facts that are being presented to them.

If they ignore facts from two emails, fine, call them an idiot and drive
them off with flames of fire and verbal abuse.  But we all need to take
the time to explain the facts, politely, without cussing or personal
attacks, in the first email to the developer.

> Anyway, as I've said several times. Is there a problem here? Besides the
> few outbursts from Linus, is there other examples on LKML within the
> last year where it is an abusive environment?

You really want me to dig up more shit from other developers?  I think
that's an exercise probably best left to a private discussion at KS.

> From what I see, it is
> becoming more mellow, and people have been making efforts to listen to
> each other. The trend on LKML is going in the right direction, so I'm a
> bit curious to why we need to make such an issue of this. Is it just to
> make Linus lower his tone a bit?

Again, I'll re-emphasize this.  I'm not "demanding" that Linus or anyone
in this community change their personal style of communication.  I'm
simply providing incentive for them to change, and asking that they
consider changing.  I'm asking to have an open discussion about this at
KS, away from the public court of opinion.  I cannot "manage" personal
change.  I cannot "force" people to have the will to change.  I can only
ask politely, and advocate for change.  Please don't equate advocating
for change with demanding change.

Sarah Sharp

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[David Lang]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:09:31AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 07:48 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>>
>>>> Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
>>>> new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
>>>> just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
>>>
>>> No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with
>>> shit".  We need a better pipeline for people who can work together
>>> civilly, and still get shit done.
>>>
>>> I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development,
>>> through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.  They slowly get introduced
>>> to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate
>>> mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel
>>> mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists.
>>> We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have
>>> even more the next round.
>>>
>>> So deal with it.  You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel
>>> community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal
>>> abuse.  If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women
>>> or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop.
>>>
>>
>> I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
>> don't mean in this thread.
>
> I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread.
> But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well.

Not that I am in any way defending these posts, but does the behavior of 
outsiders like this in other forums really reflect the LKML attitude? Or does it 
reflect the fact that there are a lot of people out there who you really do not 
want to deal with (no matter what the topic)

Just about any topic that you take a firm stand on (anything other than pure 
status-quo), and your stand gets out to as many people as have heard about this 
thread, is going to generate a LOT of offensive and irrational hate messages. 
Linus talked about the ongoing abuse he receives earlier in the thread, so it's 
not just people attacking you.

David Lang

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:

> > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
> > don't mean in this thread.
> 
> I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread.
> But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well.

That's the nastiness of the Internet, a different topic than LKML
development. And I don't consider this thread really a LKML thread, as
it's about social behavior and nothing about the Linux kernel itself.

> 
> Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626
> 
> And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098

Both are cowardly trolls that didn't post publicly.

> 
> On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel
> development, along with more than a few misogynist comments:
> 
> "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered
> to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It’s an opt-in community
> and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor."
> 
> "You’re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T’so
> first to criticize him for his behaviour."
> 
> "Drama Queen"
> 
> "The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over
> yourself."
> 
> "shit, just what we need – a bitch running around crying about how hurt
> her feelings are."
> 
> "Oy vey you poor goyi…girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that
> being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have
> done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters
> negative views of minorities."
> 
> "This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech
> world – because you’re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who
> expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily
> offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It’s real cute how
> you’ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading
> against “muh bigotry” and “muh intolerance.” You’re a feminist joke, one
> in a very long line."

Again, this is the Internet social media, which is not an environment
for productivity, but a cesspool of filth. Off topic to what I asked.

> 
> 
> Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork.

And what did you expect? The Internet if filled with assholes.

> It means I now have to book a rental car so I don't have to be on public
> transit, and book a hotel room so I don't have to be home.  Those
> crazies, especially the local Portland SW developer, can easily find my
> home address from my blog domain name whois info.
> 
> Being a woman in open source, and speaking out, means I put my personal
> safety in jeopardy.  I should not have to put up with this.  We should
> be able to have a private conversation at KS without the court of public
> opinion getting involved.  However, that's not the way it went, and now
> I have to deal with the verbal abuse, sexist statements, and threats
> that are the backlash from this thread.

This is a real issue, but not one that LKML can solve, nor Linus being
nicer will have any affect on it. It is the social media and the trolls
that live within it. Women, in particular, that fight for social change,
bring out the worse of the Internet dung bugs and they cowardly will
attack you behind anonymous accounts or private email.

You came out swinging at Linus when he mentioned to Greg that he needs
to yell at people more. You did that on a public list. I was actually
very impressed by your bravery in doing so because I knew (and expected
that you knew too) that this will stir up the feces that exists under
the Internet shoe.
 
The Internet is a dangerous tool. Like I really think Linus quietly
regrets saying "SHUT THE FUCK UP", it was done publicly and you and
others have been using it against him. By attacking Linus publicly, will
bring out the low life that will attack you. Is that right? No, but it's
a reality that you know far too well.

But you didn't yell at Linus because you get trolls on your blog and
private emails. You yelled at him because you were upset at the way he
yells at others thinking that this will keep good people from joining
our community. This may be the case, but I asked you, do you get yelled
at by kernel developers for your work? And again, not about this thread,
because this thread is not technical and has nothing directly to do with
Linux.


> 
> > You pointed out a few examples of Linus, and it usually comes from
> > someone that should know better being told not to do something, and they
> > continue to do it, and then finally Linus blows up. Linus doesn't start
> > his cursing at the first email. It takes a few to show that you deserve
> > a blow up.
> > 
> > Usually sensitive developers would listen the first time they are told.
> > It's more of the thick skin developers that push the envelope. But I
> > understand, its the "image" that bothers you.
> 
> No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me.
> For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll,
> Lubin, EVER again.
> 
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/42482
> 
> "You may be seen as a liability by Intel preaching "feminism" on a
> public forum.  From their point of view: will you play the gender card
> on them.  Here is what you did: Instead of realizing that I was being
> _very_ sympathetic to a more diverse Linux development environment by
> using the phrase "the old boys club", you pretended to take offense, not
> realizing you're in fact becoming a liability.  That's okay. Honest
> mistake."
> 
> Telling me my job at Intel is in jeopardy because I'm complaining about
> sexist statements is a threat.  It's verbal abuse, and I won't take it.
> I shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of statements and personal
> attacks.

He gave you his personal opinion. He gave you his opinion that your job
may be in jeopardy. Is he your manager? Does he work or represent Intel?
If not, ignore him. I don't see that as verbal abuse. Tell him "who are
you to decide my job?".

> 
> > The scariest thing about Linux kernel development is that because its so
> > successful, and the development is so open to the world (you are
> > programming on a stage in a world theater), that thin skin people may
> > not be comfortable in that environment. What we need are mentors, and
> > educate people that Linux really isn't that harsh, and that the new
> > developers actually do have talent, and shouldn't be afraid to post
> > their code.
> 
> We do need mentors.  Thank you for signing up to be one.
> 
> I disagree that we should educate people that Linux really isn't that
> harsh.  We are technically harsh, and always will be.  Linux kernel
> developers require perfect code, and perfectly formatted patches.

I agree.

> Setting up mentees to think otherwise is simply not advisable.  However,
> we can assure them that they won't see harsh _personal_ attacks, and
> coach them through dealing with their first harsh attacks against their
> _code_.

That's what I meant. Sorry it was misunderstood. Yeah, it may be harsh
in the fact that we expect high quality code to get into the kernel, but
I meant, the harshness isn't personal unless you try to make it that
way.

> 
> > The last thing I want to do is to lower the quality of the kernel just
> > to get a wider range of developers.
> 
> I agree.  We shouldn't lower our coding standards.  We should however,
> take a very close look at our personal communication styles, in order to
> ensure we aren't excluding a wide range of developers.

I've said it several times in this thread. I think the tone of LKML has
been getting more tame, and it's not your father's mailing list
anymore. ;-)

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:51:38AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread.
> But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well.

[ comments removed not to give them too much publicity ]

(...)

Sadly now you see that your friends are here on LKML and that some
outsiders are much much worse. You'd probably prefer being criticized
by Linus for your design choices than having to ever work with one of
the stupid donkeys that wrote the excerpts you published.

(...)
> Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork.

It always happens on public discussions unfortunately. It's the only
way they find to feel like they exist. (BTW calling them crazies is
an attack to their person and may be contrary to what you'd like to
see on this ML, no ?).

> It means I now have to book a rental car so I don't have to be on public
> transit, and book a hotel room so I don't have to be home.  Those
> crazies, especially the local Portland SW developer, can easily find my
> home address from my blog domain name whois info.

There is no reason to fear the stupid who use public places to threaten.
It's their moment of glory. After that they go to the toilets and have a
5-to-1 session and they relax.

> Being a woman in open source, and speaking out, means I put my personal
> safety in jeopardy.  I should not have to put up with this.  We should
> be able to have a private conversation at KS without the court of public
> opinion getting involved.  However, that's not the way it went, and now
> I have to deal with the verbal abuse, sexist statements, and threats
> that are the backlash from this thread.

That's the risk of launching very sensitive subjects on mailing lists. I
don't know if you remembers the era of the trolls, we had almost once a
month 7-8 years ago, it was hard to get rid of them. They just started
non-tech subjects that always derived into flame wars. Here you started
a subject of real concern that merits being discussed about, but which
relates more to emotion and culture, and derives the same way.

> > Usually sensitive developers would listen the first time they are told.
> > It's more of the thick skin developers that push the envelope. But I
> > understand, its the "image" that bothers you.
> 
> No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me.
> For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll,
> Lubin, EVER again.
(...)

> Telling me my job at Intel is in jeopardy because I'm complaining about
> sexist statements is a threat.

I was about to comment on the fact that you're 3 from intel who'd better
use your private addresses to avoid the image of "intel vs Linus" that
some may get but since all your comments have been clean and argumented,
there is no reason for anyone sane to consider them inappropriate. Intel
would be foolish to fire you when you tried to raise the professional
look of the Linux community even if many (including me) disagree.

> It's verbal abuse, and I won't take it.
> I shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of statements and personal
> attacks.

Too late, it's done, you must have no regrets and stay firmly in your shoes
(and listen to sane people's arguments).

> I disagree that we should educate people that Linux really isn't that
> harsh.  We are technically harsh, and always will be.  Linux kernel
> developers require perfect code, and perfectly formatted patches.
> Setting up mentees to think otherwise is simply not advisable.

I disagree. Precisely what the newcomers need is to find their way through
the forest of maintainers, reviewers, etc... You can send patches in whatever
format, someone will always tell you how to fix this. You'll at least get one
nice person taking the time to explain to you. We all experienced this. What
needs to be taught to newcomers is how the process works, to ignore the few
irrespectful people who will immediately comment on their indentation with
harsh words and better wait for the more teaching comments that come later,
to take care of every such comments, ask when they don't understand, and
repost.

The questions I've got from newcomers were along "Have you ever got an
e-mail from Linus ? Wow... Have you ever met him ? No ? Strange, are there
many people who don't meet ?" etc... They're completely lost because for
them this project is almost sci-fi. I try to make them understand that my
contribution is very small and non-important and that I'm as dumb as they
are so there is no reason they can't participate. Once they can accept
that, most of the job is done. The remaining part is to ensure they're
not discouraged by the formalities about merge windows, subsystems, -rc,
etc.

> However,
> we can assure them that they won't see harsh _personal_ attacks, and
> coach them through dealing with their first harsh attacks against their
> _code_.

No I prefer to tell them that with I don't know how many thousands of
subscribers, they *will* get some personal attacks that they can simply
ignore just like when they cross a drunk man on the street shouting words
at bystanders.

Best regards,
Willy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[George Spelvin]

> I think it's pretty clear that one doesn't need to be verbally abusive
> in order to stop bad code from getting into the kernel.

Actually, it *not* clear.  Without drawing fine distinctions about
the definition of "abusive", I think Linus's rants have a real purpose
at times.

One is so that *everyone* hears it, not just the immediate target of
his ire.  I really remember "don't rebase just before sending upstream"
precisely because there have been a few explosions on the subject.

It's pretty obvious that Linus tries to be entertaining when going
over the top, precisely so it's memorable.  And it works.


But the other thing is that Linux development is big business these
days, and many contributors have to justify their time to managers and
bean-counters.  It makes their lives *easier* if Linus plays "bad cop".

I remember a couple of blowups about the state of the ARM tree.  I don't
think Russell enjoyed it much, but that exchange gave him something to
wave in front of his bosses, his contributors, and his contributors'
bosses to say that the old sloppy ways had to change.

If Linus had limited himself to what was needed to make Russell
understand, it would have been all up to him to put pressure on his
contributors.  That's harder for someone without Linus' unassailable
position.

Yes, Linus put the nuclear option of not pulling the tree on the table,
but the vigor with which he expressed his opinion helped keep him from
having to *use* that option to make it clear that he was serious.  Linus
wasn't just yelling at Russell, but the entire ARM developer population,
and being loud enough that everyone heard was a goal.

It's an old military command maxim that good news should go through
channels, while bad news should come direct from the boss.  Linus'
rants serve as that kind of "bad news from the top".

As he wrote himself during the discussion:
> I've told people this before, and I'll tell it again: when I flame
> submaintainers, they should try to push the pain down. I'm not really
> asking those submaintainers to clean up all the stuff they are
> getting: I'm basically asking people to say "no", or at least push
> back a lot, and argue with the people who send you code. Tell them
> what you don't like about the code, and tell them that you can't take
> it any more.


There is definitely tension here, but I don't think it's as simple as
"you don't need to shout to stop bad code getting into the kernel."
Sometimes you *do* need to shout to make people think twice before
sending crap upstream.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Geert Uytterhoeven]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:
> I've said it several times in this thread. I think the tone of LKML has
> been getting more tame, and it's not your father's mailing list
> anymore. ;-)

Indeed.

Several (definitely more than 5) years ago, there was a presentation (IIRC
even a keynote) at OLS about the hostility of lkml to newcomers.
Bad and good examples were shown. Several attendees couldn't believe
who wrote one of the good examples, as its author was used to be known
for his very harsh emails several years before ;-)

And in the mean time, things have improved even more!

Side note: lots of this use of words is cultural. When I first visited the USA,
I was surprised to never hear anyone use four letter words, unlike in movies
exported from the USA. While these English words had become common in
Europe (at least in Belgium)...

Gr{oetje,eeting}s,

                        Geert

--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- geert@linux-m68k.org

In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
                                -- Linus Torvalds

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Sarah Sharp]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:42:44PM +0100, Al Viro wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> 
> > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
> 
> Depends on details of your definition of abuse.
> 
> > So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse.
> > The Oxford dictionary gives me:
> > 
> > "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way"
> 
> Insufficient details to tell if the statement above is correct.
> Insulting and offensive to *whom*?

It's not helpful to look at a dictionary definition of verbal abuse,
because it's much too short.

Here's a much longer description of verbally abusive behaviors:

http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html

Key ones that apply to LKML communications:  belittlement, demeaning
statements, hysteria, name-calling, raging and violent statements, and
mocking sarcasm.

Sarah Sharp

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[David Woodhouse]

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On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> No, it's actually some of the comments I've received that bother me.
> For example, I would never want to deal with the misogynist troll,
> Lubin, EVER again.

It surprises me to see you calling someone names like that, Sarah. It
seems to be contrary to the request that you are making of others.

> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/42482

Perhaps I'm missing some context, but I'm a little confused. Did you
really complain at him *merely* because he used the phrase 'old boys
club'?

That phrase is *not* about the gender of the participants, it's about
nepotism and exclusion of non-members. Men are just as excluded by the
"old boys network" of that phrase, as women are. He's talking about
*himself* being excluded, as far as I can tell. At least in places.

To complain that he was being sexist, just because he used that phrase,
was just *WRONG*.

That was *absolutely* not what he was talking about. You appeared to
bring gender (and gender discrimination) into a conversation where it
was completely out of place and inappropriate to do so.

Sarah, it may have escaped your attention that some words and phrases
which are common in the English language contain words which appear to
be gender-specific. But that *doesn't* make them sexist. It makes no
more sense to harangue this person for his use of the phrase 'old boys
club', than it would to harangue someone for saying 'mankind' instead of
'peoplekind'.

> "You may be seen as a liability by Intel preaching "feminism" on a
> public forum.  From their point of view: will you play the gender card
> on them.  Here is what you did: Instead of realizing that I was being
> _very_ sympathetic to a more diverse Linux development environment by
> using the phrase "the old boys club", you pretended to take offense, not
> realizing you're in fact becoming a liability.  That's okay. Honest
> mistake."
>
> Telling me my job at Intel is in jeopardy because I'm complaining about
> sexist statements is a threat.  It's verbal abuse, and I won't take it.
> I shouldn't have to put up with these kinds of statements and personal
> attacks.

It's not verbal abuse, and it's not an attack. He's suggesting that if
you jump at shadows and make inappropriate complaints, you may make your
employer wary because they might be concerned that you may do the same
thing to *their* detriment. Knowing your employer as I do, I think he's
probably wrong — but I certainly don't think it was a personal attack.

Unless that message came from someone inside your employer (and probably
in your management chain), it's hard to interpret it as a 'threat'. It's
just misplaced, misguided, "personal advice" being offered to make a
point.

You gave plenty of examples earlier of stuff which *was* completely
inappropriate and personal abuse. This isn't one of them, and it
detracts from your position.

Sarah, if you're going to ask us to change our behaviour to accommodate
those who are unable to cope with our normal day-to-day communication,
then I think you need to be careful to retain your credibility by
practising what you preach, and by making sure that there *is* merit in
anything you do complain about.

There *is* plenty to complain about, certainly, without also jumping at
shadows and effectively performing an ad hominem on yourself by doing
so.

When you say that you want us to avoid personal abuse and attacks,
that's fine and I think everyone can fairly much agree. But it looks
like you have a very different definition of what 'abuse' and 'attacks'
actually are, too.

I think that's largely where the understanding breaks down in this
discussion.

I support efforts to ensure civility and encourage a more diverse
participation in our community. But when I see examples like this one, I
worry about what it might lead to. I fear that it might end up being
taken *too* far, and that makes me reluctant to support it — I fear that
we'll end up on a slippery slope to a world where I'll end up being
excluded because someone will take offence at me simply using the common
phrases and idioms of the language I grew up with. And the offence which
is drawn will be *so* random and arbitrary and unpredictable, like the
alleged 'sexism' in 'old boys club' above, that I'll be fearful of
saying *anything*, ever.

I don't think I'm the only one who has that reaction.

-- 
dwmw2


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Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Guenter Roeck]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:03:35AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 13:30 +0100, Ricardo Ferreira wrote:
> > Slashdot is just a cesspool of trolls, not a good comparison.
> 
> Point taken.
> 
> I posted this privately, and I think I'll repost it here. I need to
> modify it a bit as it wasn't meant to be public.
> 
> 
> When I started sending patches to LKML it was not the cursing I was
> afraid of, it was the possibility of top notch developers pointing out
> my flaws. Linux is intimidating not because it can be harsh, but because
> its the big league. You are posting code not only to the world but also
> to some of the best programmers on the planet, and frankly, that's
> really scary. And I think that's the real reason people who are shy tend
> not to want to participate. They use the harshness of LKML as an excuse,
> but I think it's really that they may be insecure about their own work
> and how it will compare with the best of the best.
> 
> Both my wife and I have done karate for decades. My wife has even won a
> national tournament. She can do demos without a problem, but when she
> has to get up in front of other top black belts, she's a nervous wreck.
> She's her biggest critic, but she tends to know that when performing in
> front of people as good as she is, or better, they can see her flaws as
> much as she can. That is intimidating.
> 
> The point I'm making is that we need to find out what is preventing good
> developers from joining the Linux community. Is it really the harshness
> of the project, or is it because we expect you to have the best code,
> and you will not be accepted if you are not that good. And I do not want
> people joining that are not good programmers.
> 
Preventing good developers from joining - I don't know. Maybe there just
are not that many.

I have heard lots of reasons for not paricipating in open source development.
The "official" stated reason is often around "not exposing our IP", where
"IP" is sometimes declared to be each line of code. Another is "we don't want
to help our competitors".

Personally I believe that being afraid is only part of the picture. Good
developers should ultimately know that their code is good, and not be afraid
to show it (or find a mentor to encourage them). However, I have to say that
that much of the code I have seen in my life is _not_ good, or crap as is
referred to by many in the Linux community. To some degree includes my own code -
if I encounter code I have written ten years ago, I often think "did I really
write this crap ?".  I think _that_ is a key reason for people not
participating - they are afraid that their code might be exposed as crap.
A corrolary of that might be that some companies don't want their customers
to see how bad the code is they are shipping to them.

> The answer is not to bash Linus into being a nice guy (which seems to be
> what Sarah's trying to do), but we can get mentors or even "scouts" to
> look for people of talent and help them get into the community. What
> those people need is not a nicer LKML that will let mediocre developers
> in, but someone that recognizes their talent and encourages them to
> join, by reinforcing to them how good of a developer they are. I've
> helped people this way. Talented programmers that were unsure of
> themselves, and they have done extremely well in our community.
> 
Excellent summary. I absolutely agree.

Thanks,
Guenter

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ramkumar Ramachandra]

Sarah Sharp wrote:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098
>
> On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel
> development, along with more than a few misogynist comments:

So it's a publicity stunt then.  That is the only rational
explanation, because the alternative explanation is that you're trying
to tame the internet ;)

Another flash in the pan: this whole event (and you) will be erased
from everyone's memories in a few weeks.  Okay, maybe a few months if
you get fired from SendGrid.

You're better than that.  Think calmly, and focus your attention on
making a long-term impact.  Hint: it's not going to happen by arguing
endlessly about the same thing.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Paul E. McKenney]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > 
> > [ ... ]
> >>
> >> The result: 75% of their developers are women.  If you give a flying
> >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source
> > 
> > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its use is
> > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me that you
> > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much less
> > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when you use
> > it while arguing for a more civil discussion.
> > 
> > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do you want
> > to take that right away from others ?
> 
> Thank you for your comment.  (seriously)
> 
> and Dave Miller's as well.

The USA social conventions have changed quite significantly over the past
50 years, haven't they?  But that is OK, the younger people on this list
will likely have the opportunity to experience far greater changes over
the next 50 years, especially given increasing fractions of people's
life experiences being publicly recorded.  It would be interesting to
see how they react, but I probably won't be around to witness it.  ;-)

							Thanx, Paul

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Guenter Roeck]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08:31PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > 
> > > [ ... ]
> > >>
> > >> The result: 75% of their developers are women.  If you give a flying
> > >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source
> > > 
> > > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its use is
> > > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me that you
> > > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much less
> > > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when you use
> > > it while arguing for a more civil discussion.
> > > 
> > > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do you want
> > > to take that right away from others ?
> > 
> > Thank you for your comment.  (seriously)
> > 
> > and Dave Miller's as well.
> 
> The USA social conventions have changed quite significantly over the past
> 50 years, haven't they?  But that is OK, the younger people on this list
> will likely have the opportunity to experience far greater changes over
> the next 50 years, especially given increasing fractions of people's
> life experiences being publicly recorded.  It would be interesting to
> see how they react, but I probably won't be around to witness it.  ;-)
> 
My kids use the word all the time, and look at me with an odd face if I point out
that it is not a nice word to use (for me). Several people I know and respect
seem to be unable to say a sentence without using it. So, yes, I am aware that
times are changing, and that my cultural context is different than that of the
culture I am living in. But that isn't the point here.

Guenter

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Felipe Contreras]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Sarah Sharp
<sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:42:44PM +0100, Al Viro wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
>>
>> > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
>>
>> Depends on details of your definition of abuse.
>>
>> > So we are down to the definition of verbal abuse.
>> > The Oxford dictionary gives me:
>> >
>> > "speak to (someone) in an insulting and offensive way"
>>
>> Insufficient details to tell if the statement above is correct.
>> Insulting and offensive to *whom*?
>
> It's not helpful to look at a dictionary definition of verbal abuse,
> because it's much too short.
>
> Here's a much longer description of verbally abusive behaviors:
>
> http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html

That definition starts with this:

"Any kind of repeated pattern of inappropriate, derogatory or
threatening speech directed at one individual by another."

The key word being *REPEATED*. I don't see Linus *repeatedly*
insulting Mauro (or any other developer), under that definition, it's
not verbal abuse.

I don't like that definition, but even in that one your claim doesn't stand.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Paul E. McKenney]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:19:34PM -0700, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08:31PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > > On 07/17/13 15:02, Guenter Roeck wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > [ ... ]
> > > >>
> > > >> The result: 75% of their developers are women.  If you give a flying
> > > >> fuck about diversity, and want to attract women to your open source
> > > > 
> > > > The f word is considered highly offensive in some cultures. Granted its use is
> > > > now far more spread than it used to be, but it seems interesting to me that you
> > > > of all people use a word which I personally would never use at all, much less
> > > > in front of a woman. Sounds like a contradiction to me, especially when you use
> > > > it while arguing for a more civil discussion.
> > > > 
> > > > Do you think you need to use that word to make a point ? If so, why do you want
> > > > to take that right away from others ?
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your comment.  (seriously)
> > > 
> > > and Dave Miller's as well.
> > 
> > The USA social conventions have changed quite significantly over the past
> > 50 years, haven't they?  But that is OK, the younger people on this list
> > will likely have the opportunity to experience far greater changes over
> > the next 50 years, especially given increasing fractions of people's
> > life experiences being publicly recorded.  It would be interesting to
> > see how they react, but I probably won't be around to witness it.  ;-)
> > 
> My kids use the word all the time, and look at me with an odd face if I point out
> that it is not a nice word to use (for me). Several people I know and respect
> seem to be unable to say a sentence without using it. So, yes, I am aware that
> times are changing, and that my cultural context is different than that of the
> culture I am living in. But that isn't the point here.

Heh!  If I were to ask each of the N participants in this thread what
the point was, would I get fewer than N different answers?  ;-)

							Thanx, Paul

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626
> 
> And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098
> 
> On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel
> development, along with more than a few misogynist comments:
> 
> "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered
> to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It’s an opt-in community
> and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor."
> 
> "You’re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T’so
> first to criticize him for his behaviour."

There is a whole army of idiots out there, we know that. We aren't going to
fix *that*. Was any of the above actually a *relevant* person as part of
our community ? Because non of what we do, say, document, decide, etc...
here will change those idiots.

Cheers,
Ben.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[CAI Qian]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sarah Sharp" <sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com>
> To: "CAI Qian" <caiqian@redhat.com>
> Cc: "Trond Myklebust" <Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com>, "Ric Wheeler" <ricwheeler@gmail.com>, "David Lang"
> <david@lang.hm>, ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, "Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
> "Darren Hart" <dvhart@linux.intel.com>, "Ingo Molnar" <mingo@kernel.org>, "Olivier Galibert" <galibert@pobox.com>,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, "stable" <stable@vger.kernel.org>, "Linus Torvalds"
> <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, "Willy Tarreau" <w@1wt.eu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:48:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:36:36AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> > > > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > > > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > > > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where
> > > > > the
> > > > > baseline of "good" behavior is.  We need to define what behavior we
> > > > > want
> > > > > from both maintainers and patch submitters.  E.g. "No regressions"
> > > > > and
> > > > > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks".  That needs to be
> > > > > written down somewhere, and it isn't.  If it's documented somewhere,
> > > > > point me to the file in Documentation.  Hint: it's not there.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarah Sharp
> > > > 
> > > > The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less
> > > > effective
> > > > as a community.
> > > 
> > > Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this
> > > community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and
> > > have no problems with it.
> > > 
> > > Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting
> > > _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some
> > > journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy
> > > comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy
> > > newbies.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people
> > > of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of
> > > a social scientist to help us find out...
> >
> > Does that sound like there are not going to have enough direct/thick skin
> > new kernel developers around to maintain the future Linux community? Maybe
> > just need a better pipeline for people comfortable for this culture?
> 
> No, we don't need a better pipeline for people who can "put up with
> shit".  We need a better pipeline for people who can work together
> civilly, and still get shit done.
> 
> I'm working on getting a pipeline of women into kernel development,
> through the FOSS Outreach Program for Women.  They slowly get introduced
> to Linux development culture, starting with a very friendly separate
> mailing list and IRC channel, and finally moving to work with a kernel
> mentor on a bigger project on the main Linux kernel development lists.
> We have seven women participating this round, and I suspect we'll have
> even more the next round.
> 
> So deal with it.  You're going to have a lot more women in the kernel
> community, and not all of them will be willing to put up with verbal
> abuse.  If you want to attract top talent that also happen to be women
> or racial minorities, the verbal abuse needs to stop.
Maybe we need something like this?
http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct
> 
> Sarah Sharp
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> 

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Al Viro]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 03:24:18PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:

> > > Abuse is never justified, I hope that's clear for everybody.
> > 
> > Depends on details of your definition of abuse.
[snip]
> http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/VerbalAbuse.html

"   "Always" and "Never" Statements - "Always" and "Never" Statements are
   declarations containing the words "always" or "never". They are
   commonly used but rarely true.
"

See above...  And as far as I can see in this thread, there *is* a pattern
of that by Stefano; should that be interpreted as verbal abuse?

> Key ones that apply to LKML communications:  belittlement, demeaning
> statements, hysteria, name-calling, raging and violent statements, and
> mocking sarcasm.

"   Targeted Humor, Mocking and Sarcasm - Targeted Humor is any sustained
   pattern of joking, sarcasm or mockery which is designed to reduce
   another individual's reputation in their own eyes or in the eyes of
   others.
"

s/individual's reputation/appeal of a bad idea being proposed/ and you'll
get something that is not only justified, but highly valuable.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Paolo Bonzini]

Il 16/07/2013 20:27, James Bottomley ha scritto:
> I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of
> civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to
> do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument
> doesn't suit everyone, so it's not a standard of behaviour I'd like to
> see universally imposed.

Honestly, it is not just the low traffic, it's also that most of the
patches (90%?) are drivers that hardly anyone cares about.  There is
very little core work going on in linux-scsi, which would be a lot
harder to discuss and review (making heated tones more likely to
happen).  This is not what happens in other areas (net for example, just
to remain within drivers/).

> In fact, I've got to say that I wouldn't like
> to see *any* behaviour standard imposed ... they're all basically cover
> for power plays (or soon get abused as power plays); the only real way
> to display leadership on behaviour standards is by example not by fiat.

This I completely agree with, and you set a great example of civility.

Paolo

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ingo Molnar]

* Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 11:51 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> 
> > > I have to ask. How much verbal abuse have you received in LKML? And I
> > > don't mean in this thread.
> > 
> > I assume you also want me to exclude the verbal abuse and personal
> > threats I've received via email and my blog because of this thread.
> > But, just for reference, I'll post them here as well.
> 
> That's the nastiness of the Internet, a different topic than LKML
> development. And I don't consider this thread really a LKML thread, as
> it's about social behavior and nothing about the Linux kernel itself.
> 
> > 
> > Here's a gem from a senior software developer at Nvidia:
> > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901298464591248626
> > 
> > And another email from a software developer in Portland, where I live:
> > https://picasaweb.google.com/116960357493251979546/Trolls#5901288095984358098
> 
> Both are cowardly trolls that didn't post publicly.
> 
> > 
> > On my blog, here's some choice comments, mostly asking me to quit kernel
> > development, along with more than a few misogynist comments:
> > 
> > "You volunteered to help out on the Linux journey. He never volunteered
> > to care for your feelings, nor did anyone else. It???s an opt-in community
> > and you can always opt out at any time. Caveat emptor."
> > 
> > "You???re no one compared to Linus. Start being Alan Cox or Theodore T???so
> > first to criticize him for his behaviour."
> > 
> > "Drama Queen"
> > 
> > "The LKML is not a place for easily offended girls to be. Get over
> > yourself."
> > 
> > "shit, just what we need ??? a bitch running around crying about how hurt
> > her feelings are."
> > 
> > "Oy vey you poor goyi???girl. You need to teach these sexist boys that
> > being racist is wrong. Think of the wonderful things that womyn have
> > done in the IT field. Clearly Linus is a rape apologist who fosters
> > negative views of minorities."
> > 
> > "This is why women are viewed as pathetic jokes, especially in the tech
> > world ??? because you???re weak and ineffectual, insufferable pansies who
> > expect the world to cater and accommodate your thin skin and easily
> > offended hyper-sensibilities. Grow the fuck up bitch. It???s real cute how
> > you???ve tried to paint yourself as some gallant Joan of Arc, crusading
> > against ???muh bigotry??? and ???muh intolerance.??? You???re a feminist joke, one
> > in a very long line."
> 
> Again, this is the Internet social media, which is not an environment 
> for productivity, but a cesspool of filth. Off topic to what I asked.
> 
> > Speaking out about this has made the crazies come out of the woodwork.
> 
> And what did you expect? The Internet if filled with assholes.

It's worse than that: being an asshole appears to also be correlated with 
the likelihood of speaking up on forums! So assholes are overrepresented, 
especially on forums that are semi-anonymous.

Sarah, you should see some of the hateful comments I got over past 
scheduler maintenance decisions... [Or rather, you should not.]

When being involved in polarizing discussions, especially if you yourself 
frame it as polarizing, you should expect to receive a wide spectrum of 
opinion and outright trolling.

The hateful, despicable, abhorrent trolling you cited should not be 
projected over to your opponent in the discussion, unless your opponent 
voices it as well ...

Thanks,

	Ingo

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[H. Peter Anvin]

On 07/18/2013 11:03 PM, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
>>
>> Ie. It's a *very good* barrier against maintainers sliding into
>> sloppyness. Really, it works. At least with me.
>>
>> It's easy to take things a bit too much for granted, especially when you
>> maintain your own little corner of the world.
> 
> Agreed!  Though I must confess that I have shifted from being mostly
> worried about people yelling at me to being mostly worried about my own
> code yelling at me.  Either way, I do find that being worried about some
> consequence or another does help me get a better result.
> 

Yes.  Linus' little rant from last weekend has had me and the other tip
maintainers look at process changes and new tooling, which we probably
should have done a while ago... but it just got way too buried on the
list of priorities.

	-hpa

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[James Bottomley]

On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 14:56 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> 
> > But you are avoiding the question as well; do you think there's
> > something fundamentally different about the female brain that makes
> > them more susceptible to personal attacks? If yes, where is the
> > scientific evidence? If there's no evidence, then it's merely an
> > opinion that is not shared by others (e.g. me), and if no, then
> > whatever the men can take, the women can take as well, so nothing
> > needs to change.
> 
> I don't know bout susceptible to personal attacks, but I have two
> teenage daughters and I can't figure them out yet. I'll say something
> that I think might get them upset and they are fine with it. Then I'll
> say something, where I see no harm, and suddenly I'm the most evil
> person in the world and they go all emotional on me.

I'm afraid I've got bad news for you:  That's not a male/female thing,
that's a teenage thing.  I'm also afraid that it's set to continue for a
while yet.

> Women are too complex for me to figure out. Perhaps men are just too
> simple minded (my wife keeps telling me that). Or perhaps it's just
> me ;-)

If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on
teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ...

James

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:

> If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on
> teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ...

No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-)

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[NeilBrown]

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On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 16:43:53 -0400 Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:33 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> 
> > If you're basing your entire theory on male/female interaction on
> > teenagers, then I'm afraid your wife might be on to something ...
> 
> No, it's also based on interaction with my Wife and her sister too ;-)
> 

I genuinely think the gender difference is a distraction.  The simple fact is
that people are different.  Wildly amazingly beautifully different.

Certainly some metrics have starkly different averages for men than women,
and there can be biological and social drivers of that.  But those metrics
very often vary greatly among men and among women.

But it's really people that are different.

Some people are very perceptive of, and responsive to, those differences.
They are able and willing to listen and understand and adjust.  They try to
fit in with others.  I know a few people like that and I am staggered by how
effectively they bond with other people.

Other people are blind to the differences.  They expect everyone to be just
like themselves.  When the reality shows that isn't true they create coarse
stereotypes to allow them to pigeon hole others.  This naturally leads to
prejudice and sometimes to hate.  And I know a few people like that too -
maybe not quite the extreme, but certainly closer to that extreme than me.


I believe that the abstract/mathematical/literal abilities that allow someone
to be good at software development is inversely correlated with the
holistic/forgiving/flexible abilities that allow someone to be good at
understanding others.

One needs to care deeply about small details.  The other needs to work with
hints and suggestions and accept that precision is simply not available.

I know for myself that such understanding of people as I have has developed
slowly due to hard work, patience from a loving wife and others, and from me
stepping well outside my comfort zone - where as the mathematical ability
was obvious in kindergarten and never needed any encouragement.

And the people I know who are very good with other people are about as
comfortable with technology as I am with strangers (i.e. not very).

If this negative correlation is true, then it says something very important
about our community.  I don't think there is any need for me to spell it out.

I think the recent discussion demonstrates this quite clearly.  Lots of
beating on chests, very little meeting of minds.  Lots of talk about
technical solutions (or non-solutions), very little suggestion of
acknowledgement, accommodation or compromise.
[some - yes.  But not much]

Maybe that is just who we are.  Yes, we are sometimes blind to differences in
others and can lead us to hurt and repel them.  But that blindness allows us
to focus on excellence in technology and so it is worth it.
Or maybe that is only who were were.  Maybe we've got the technology pretty
much under control and we (individuals) can choose to put more effort into
listening to people who are very different to us.  Stop accepting the fact
that we "just don't understand some people" and use our not inconsiderable
intellect find some understanding.

(and no, I don't completely understand my wife either, but I'm sure I
understand her better now than I once did).

NeilBrown

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Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ben Hutchings]

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On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> wrote:
> >
> > * Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >> As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
> >
> > That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double
> > the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project.
> 
> Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many
> women programmers as there are men.

In some countries, though not all.

But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among
programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free
software communities including the Linux kernel developers.

> So there's absolutely *nothing*
> the Linux kernel can do to double the creative brain capacity of the
> Linux kernel project (at least with respect to women).
>
> At best that is a societal/academic/professional issue, not a Linux issue.
[...]

There is a broader societal issue, but that doesn't mean that there
isn't also a problem at the level of individual developer communities.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Humans are not rational beings; they are rationalising beings.

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Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Daniel Phillips]

On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your
> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful.

Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without 
being offensive or abusive.

Regards,

Daniel

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Ric Wheeler]

On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> >On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar<mingo@kernel.org>  wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >* Felipe Contreras<felipe.contreras@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> >
>>>> > >>As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
>>> > >
>>> > >That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double
>>> > >the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project.
>> >
>> >Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many
>> >women programmers as there are men.
> In some countries, though not all.
>
> But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among
> programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free
> software communities including the Linux kernel developers.
>

Just a couple of data points to add.

When I was in graduate school in Israel, we had more women doing their phd then 
men. Not a huge sample, but it was interesting.

The counter sample is the number of coding women we have at Red Hat in the 
kernel team. We are around zero per cent. Certainly a sign that we need to do 
better, regardless of the broader community challenges...

Ric

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Li Zefan]

On 2013/7/21 21:22, Ric Wheeler wrote:
> On 07/20/2013 01:04 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>> n Fri, 2013-07-19 at 13:42 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>>> >On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Ingo Molnar<mingo@kernel.org>  wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > >* Felipe Contreras<felipe.contreras@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> >
>>>>> > >>As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double
>>>> > >the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project.
>>> >
>>> >Unfortunately that's impossible; we all know there aren't as many
>>> >women programmers as there are men.
>> In some countries, though not all.
>>
>> But we also know (or should realise) that the gender ratio among
>> programmers in general is much less unbalanced than in some free
>> software communities including the Linux kernel developers.
>>
> 
> Just a couple of data points to add.
> 
> When I was in graduate school in Israel, we had more women doing their phd then men. Not a huge sample, but it was interesting.
> 
> The counter sample is the number of coding women we have at Red Hat in the kernel team. We are around zero per cent. Certainly a sign that we need to do better, regardless of the broader community challenges...
> 

IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the
time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team
is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet.

Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote:

> IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the
> time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team
> is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet.
> 
> Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries.

Just my observation, but it seems that I see more women in tech from the
Asian countries than from the US.

Watching my two teenage daughters grow up here as well as their friends,
the focus of our schools still seem more bent on being good in sports
than in academics, and even worse for science. Sports for girls happen
to be much more serious than when I was in school. Being a "nerd" for a
boy is starting to get a bit more acceptance (see Big Bang Theory), but
for girls they seem a bit more harsh. At least from what I can tell by
watching how things are with my kids and their friends. One of the
friends of my daughter, who does very well in school, hides her grades
and "pretends" to be stupid. This is really a sad state of affairs if
you ask me :-(

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Li Zefan]

On 2013/7/23 9:39, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 09:26 +0800, Li Zefan wrote:
> 
>> IT companies in China, they try to make sure there's at least one (most the
>> time the result is just one) female developer/tester in a team, and a team
>> is ~10 people. Even if it's a kernel team, but it's harder to meet.
>>
>> Don't know if the same strategy is applied in other countries.
> 
> Just my observation, but it seems that I see more women in tech from the
> Asian countries than from the US.
> 
> Watching my two teenage daughters grow up here as well as their friends,
> the focus of our schools still seem more bent on being good in sports
> than in academics, and even worse for science. Sports for girls happen
> to be much more serious than when I was in school. Being a "nerd" for a
> boy is starting to get a bit more acceptance (see Big Bang Theory), but
> for girls they seem a bit more harsh. At least from what I can tell by
> watching how things are with my kids and their friends. One of the
> friends of my daughter, who does very well in school, hides her grades
> and "pretends" to be stupid. This is really a sad state of affairs if
> you ask me :-(
> 

In china we are in the opposite. In college girls like to stay in school
library to study, and in general they get better scores than boys, and
they don't like sports. But being good in study is not the same as being
good at programming, and in fact they are not keen in coding!

And I think IT companies in China tend to lower their requirements when
the job interviewee is a female.

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Felipe Contreras]

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips
<d.phillips@partner.samsung.com> wrote:
> On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
>> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your
>> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful.
>
> Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without
> being offensive or abusive.

You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means.
I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and
that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be
the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be
a straw man fallacy.

Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a
name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that
claim.

And even supposing that such an obvious fallacy (that one can *always*
be both open and honest, and polite) was true, the fact that something
*can* be done, doesn't mean it *should* be done.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[James Bottomley]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips
> <d.phillips@partner.samsung.com> wrote:
> > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
> >> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your
> >> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful.
> >
> > Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without
> > being offensive or abusive.
> 
> You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means.
> I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and
> that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be
> the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be
> a straw man fallacy.
> 
> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
> both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a
> name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that
> claim.

It's not actually one of the original logical fallacies, but it's called
argument to moderation or false compromise: The fallacy is the
assumption that the original statements represent extremal positions of
a continuum so there must always be middle ground which represents the
correct statement.  To those accepting the fallacy making the middle
ground statement by that fact alone demonstrates the invalidity of the
previous proposition.

I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
positions and arguing them thoroughly.  It's only with the advent of
Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek
compromise without rigorous examination.  This actually makes argument
to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today
for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it.

James

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:

> I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
> positions and arguing them thoroughly.  It's only with the advent of
> Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek
> compromise without rigorous examination.  This actually makes argument
> to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today
> for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it.

What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between
evolution and creationism?

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Paul Gortmaker]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:26 PM, James Bottomley
<James.Bottomley@hansenpartnership.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 19:51 -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Daniel Phillips
>> <d.phillips@partner.samsung.com> wrote:
>> > On 07/20/2013 12:36 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> >> I think you need more than "hope" to change one of the fundamental
>> >> rules of LKML; be open and honest, even if that means expressing your
>> >> opinion in a way that others might consider offensive and colorful.
>> >
>> > Logical fallacy type: bifurcation. You can be open and honest without
>> > being offensive or abusive.
>>
>> You are mistaken, that is not what the false dichotomy fallacy means.
>> I'm not saying you have to be A (open and honest), or B (polite), and
>> that you can't be both, if that's what you arguing (which seems to be
>> the case), you are wrong, and to argue against that position would be
>> a straw man fallacy.
>>
>> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
>> both A (open and honest), and B (polite), I'm not sure if there's a
>> name for that fallacy, but you don't provide any evidence for that
>> claim.
>
> It's not actually one of the original logical fallacies, but it's called
> argument to moderation or false compromise: The fallacy is the
> assumption that the original statements represent extremal positions of
> a continuum so there must always be middle ground which represents the
> correct statement.  To those accepting the fallacy making the middle
> ground statement by that fact alone demonstrates the invalidity of the
> previous proposition.

And when so many of us had convinced ourselves that this thread could
not possibly descend any further into the off-topic weeds...  Good job.
That assumption has now been shattered by bringing in ancient Greece.

Given that, I'd like to propose a KS topic that covers Adam Smith, and
John Stuart Mill,  Leviathan by Hobbes, and The Politics by Aristotle.

C'mon folks.  This is beyond silly.  Let us look at the things that we
can really change, or at least influence change within.  Things that
really matter to linux today and tomorrow.

P.
---

>
> I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
> positions and arguing them thoroughly.  It's only with the advent of
> Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek
> compromise without rigorous examination.  This actually makes argument
> to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today
> for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it.
>
> James
>
>
> --
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> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:48 -0400, Paul Gortmaker wrote:
> C'mon folks.  This is beyond silly.  Let us look at the things that we
> can really change, or at least influence change within.  Things that
> really matter to linux today and tomorrow.

Ah, so there is middle ground between creationism and evolution!

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Daniel Phillips]

On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
> both A (open and honest), and B (polite)...

You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and 
honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I hope that 
you will come to agree with me in the not too distant future.

Regards,

Daniel

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[James Bottomley]

On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> 
> > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
> > positions and arguing them thoroughly.  It's only with the advent of
> > Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek
> > compromise without rigorous examination.  This actually makes argument
> > to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today
> > for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it.
> 
> What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between
> evolution and creationism?

Well, you jest, but actually Intelligent Design is usually presented as
a false compromise between the "extremes" of evolution and creationism.
If you listen to it's proponents, the rhetorical device they use to
argue for legitimacy is precisely an argument to moderation.

James

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 09:23 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 21:38 -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 18:26 -0700, James Bottomley wrote:
> > 
> > > I think it's not in the original fallacies because they come from Greek
> > > rhetoric and the Greeks believed dialectic: the taking opposite
> > > positions and arguing them thoroughly.  It's only with the advent of
> > > Western European political systems that we're conditioned to seek
> > > compromise without rigorous examination.  This actually makes argument
> > > to moderation one of the most effective rhetorical tools in use today
> > > for discrediting an opponent's argument without actually addressing it.
> > 
> > What? Really? You mean the truth doesn't lie in the middle between
> > evolution and creationism?
> 
> Well, you jest, but actually Intelligent Design is usually presented as
> a false compromise between the "extremes" of evolution and creationism.
> If you listen to it's proponents, the rhetorical device they use to
> argue for legitimacy is precisely an argument to moderation.

Exactly, which is why I used that as an example. And also, just to kick
the hornet's nest.

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Felipe Contreras]

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Daniel Phillips
<d.phillips@partner.samsung.com> wrote:
> On 07/24/2013 12:51 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote:
>> Your mistaken fallacy seems to be that you think one can *always* be
>> both A (open and honest), and B (polite)...
>
> You are are right, I do think that you can *always* be both open and
> honest, and polite. I do not believe that I am mistaken. And I hope that
> you will come to agree with me in the not too distant future.

What I come to agree is irrelevant. What you _hope_ is not important.
What you _believe_ doesn't really matter.

You've stated what you *think*, that barely has any value in the
discussion, but all right, you've done so already... duly noted.

Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed
without evidence.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 09:00:37AM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Moving on. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed
> without evidence.

Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?

Thank you.
Willy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Steven Rostedt]

On Thu, 2013-07-25 at 16:33 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:

> Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?

Just do what I did and kill it with a /dev/null filter.

But wait! How did I see this email? Oh shit! It's come back from the
dead!!!!

-- Steve

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Daniel Phillips]

On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?

Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I 
somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re "open 
and honest" as "endless and boring".

I agree that the attempt to divert the intent of my comment into a 
farcical debate on debating was not worth the internet bytes it was 
printed on. In fact, that nicely demonstrates one class of technique 
commonly used on lkml to silence criticism, and is worth studying from 
that viewpoint. That sort of diverting should end, particularly in 
regards to the topic at hand.

Regards,

Daniel

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:51:21PM +0000, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> On 07/25/2013 02:34 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > Guys, could we please stop this endless boring thread ?
> 
> Willy, I believe we are on the same side of the civility debate, but I 
> somehow got the feeling that you just characterized my comment re "open 
> and honest" as "endless and boring".
> 
> I agree that the attempt to divert the intent of my comment into a 
> farcical debate on debating was not worth the internet bytes it was 
> printed on. In fact, that nicely demonstrates one class of technique 
> commonly used on lkml to silence criticism, and is worth studying from 
> that viewpoint. That sort of diverting should end, particularly in 
> regards to the topic at hand.

Daniel, the thread has long diverted and has become a philosophical
debate. I'm still in CC since almost the beginning because I dared to
respond to the *original* discussion (on the subject of how to better
tag commits for stable), conscious of the risk I was taking. I've long
stopped reading this and am still getting these e-mails which remind
me some old tv shows I could occasionally discover when I was a kid,
with old daddies with long hair discussing whether writing with a hand
in the pocket is better for health than brushing your hair with a
plastic brush or not...

So I have no problem stating it here : no, this thread doesn't interest
me anymore. Only the few first exchanges did (those on the workflow of
commits).

I could humbly ask to be removed from the CC list, but since -stable
is CCed as well I'll still receive these discussions in my mailbox. And
given that I'm not the only one to find this one boring, I believe it
is not a selfish request from me to kindly ask this thing to stop. After
all, 2 or 3 persons sending off-topic e-mails to 10, 20, or even 50k
subscribers on a development list might look inadequate to some readers.

Thus, I think it would be *polite* from people who entertain this thread
while smoking I-don't-know-what, to agree that there will always be some
areas where they disagree, that they shake their respective hands and
silently quit the scene so that we can turn off the lights and all go to
bed.

Thanks for your understanding,
Willy

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Daniel Phillips]

Hi Willy,

I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done.

I am not tired of the subject, quite the contrary. Please do not speak 
for me in that regard. After many years of wandering in the toxic 
wasteland, finally some actual progress.

Regards,

Daniel

Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML

[Willy Tarreau]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:44:50PM +0000, Daniel Phillips wrote:
> Hi Willy,
> 
> I understand completely. I don't blame you. Filter the thread. Done.

So because people speak loudly at night below my window in summer, I
have to close the window and install a fan to get some air ? And all
the neighbours have to do the same ? Sorry, there are places for this
I'd rather politely ask them to go to these places. And anyway it's
much easier for me to write rules to block addresses than subjects,
so if I am bored enough to write a rule it will target the participants.

Keep your discussion on LKML if you want it to be public, it's even
on the subject and nobody will care because nobody has it in his main
mailbox anymore. But please remove the other people that were left CCed
and who don't participate to the thread, as well as the ksummit and
stable lists that are for completely different purposes.

Thanks,
Willy