New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

Dear vger postmaster,

I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
alternative outlet.

I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
mailing list for it.

This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
going on.

Let me know and thanks in advance!

 Luis

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Kalle Valo]

"Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org> writes:

> Dear vger postmaster,
>
> I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
> on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
> alternative outlet.
>
> I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
> issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
> and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
> I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
> should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
> to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
> get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
> perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
> should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
> mailing list for it.
>
> This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
> engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
> going on.

There's already linux-firmware@kernel.org (an alias I think, not sure)
for submitting patches to linux-firmware.git. I think it will be
confusing if we will have two separate linux-firmware destinations under
kernel.org domain:

linux-firmware@kernel.org
linux-firmware@vger.kernel.org

Maybe rename the new list to linux-fw-dev@vger.kernel.org or something
like that to make it more obvious which one is which?

-- 
Kalle Valo

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 02:53:22PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
> "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org> writes:
> 
> > Dear vger postmaster,
> >
> > I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
> > on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
> > alternative outlet.
> >
> > I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
> > issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
> > and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
> > I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
> > should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
> > to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
> > get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
> > perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
> > should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
> > mailing list for it.
> >
> > This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
> > engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
> > going on.
> 
> There's already linux-firmware@kernel.org (an alias I think, not sure)

Ah, yes thanks.

> for submitting patches to linux-firmware.git. I think it will be
> confusing if we will have two separate linux-firmware destinations under
> kernel.org domain:
> 
> linux-firmware@kernel.org
> linux-firmware@vger.kernel.org
> 
> Maybe rename the new list to linux-fw-dev@vger.kernel.org or something
> like that to make it more obvious which one is which?

Yeah good call. That's fine by me, but I'll leave it to postmaster to
also decide.

  Luis

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[David Miller]

From: "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 18:19:42 +0200

> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 02:53:22PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
>> "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Dear vger postmaster,
>> >
>> > I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
>> > on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
>> > alternative outlet.
>> >
>> > I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
>> > issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
>> > and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
>> > I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
>> > should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
>> > to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
>> > get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
>> > perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
>> > should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
>> > mailing list for it.
>> >
>> > This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
>> > engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
>> > going on.
>> 
>> There's already linux-firmware@kernel.org (an alias I think, not sure)
> 
> Ah, yes thanks.
> 
>> for submitting patches to linux-firmware.git. I think it will be
>> confusing if we will have two separate linux-firmware destinations under
>> kernel.org domain:
>> 
>> linux-firmware@kernel.org
>> linux-firmware@vger.kernel.org
>> 
>> Maybe rename the new list to linux-fw-dev@vger.kernel.org or something
>> like that to make it more obvious which one is which?
> 
> Yeah good call. That's fine by me, but I'll leave it to postmaster to
> also decide.

One list is enough, I think.

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:09 AM, David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:
> From: "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org>
> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 18:19:42 +0200
>
>> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 02:53:22PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
>>> "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org> writes:
>>>
>>> > Dear vger postmaster,
>>> >
>>> > I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
>>> > on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
>>> > alternative outlet.
>>> >
>>> > I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
>>> > issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
>>> > and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
>>> > I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
>>> > should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
>>> > to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
>>> > get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
>>> > perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
>>> > should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
>>> > mailing list for it.
>>> >
>>> > This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
>>> > engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
>>> > going on.
>>>
>>> There's already linux-firmware@kernel.org (an alias I think, not sure)
>>
>> Ah, yes thanks.
>>
>>> for submitting patches to linux-firmware.git. I think it will be
>>> confusing if we will have two separate linux-firmware destinations under
>>> kernel.org domain:
>>>
>>> linux-firmware@kernel.org
>>> linux-firmware@vger.kernel.org
>>>
>>> Maybe rename the new list to linux-fw-dev@vger.kernel.org or something
>>> like that to make it more obvious which one is which?
>>
>> Yeah good call. That's fine by me, but I'll leave it to postmaster to
>> also decide.
>
> One list is enough, I think.

Oh, thing is linux-firmware@kernel.org is for patches to the
linux-firmare.git tree, meanwhile my request was for
drivers/base/firmware_class.c, its respective headers and
documentation. I really don't think folks who want to see changes to
the firmware_class changes want to see any of the binary blobs that go
into linux-firmware.git.

  Luis

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Greg Kroah-Hartman]

On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 12:06:55PM -0700, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:09 AM, David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:
> > From: "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org>
> > Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 18:19:42 +0200
> >
> >> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 02:53:22PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
> >>> "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org> writes:
> >>>
> >>> > Dear vger postmaster,
> >>> >
> >>> > I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
> >>> > on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
> >>> > alternative outlet.
> >>> >
> >>> > I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
> >>> > issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
> >>> > and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
> >>> > I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
> >>> > should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
> >>> > to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
> >>> > get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
> >>> > perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
> >>> > should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
> >>> > mailing list for it.
> >>> >
> >>> > This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
> >>> > engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
> >>> > going on.
> >>>
> >>> There's already linux-firmware@kernel.org (an alias I think, not sure)
> >>
> >> Ah, yes thanks.
> >>
> >>> for submitting patches to linux-firmware.git. I think it will be
> >>> confusing if we will have two separate linux-firmware destinations under
> >>> kernel.org domain:
> >>>
> >>> linux-firmware@kernel.org
> >>> linux-firmware@vger.kernel.org
> >>>
> >>> Maybe rename the new list to linux-fw-dev@vger.kernel.org or something
> >>> like that to make it more obvious which one is which?
> >>
> >> Yeah good call. That's fine by me, but I'll leave it to postmaster to
> >> also decide.
> >
> > One list is enough, I think.
> 
> Oh, thing is linux-firmware@kernel.org is for patches to the
> linux-firmare.git tree, meanwhile my request was for
> drivers/base/firmware_class.c, its respective headers and
> documentation. I really don't think folks who want to see changes to
> the firmware_class changes want to see any of the binary blobs that go
> into linux-firmware.git.

Does a single file, or just a few files, really need a whole new mailing
list?  I don't think so, let's just stick with lkml for now.

thanks

greg k-h

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Greg Kroah-Hartman
<gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 12:06:55PM -0700, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 11:09 AM, David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:
>> > From: "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org>
>> > Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 18:19:42 +0200
>> >
>> >> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 02:53:22PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
>> >>> "Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@kernel.org> writes:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Dear vger postmaster,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I think its time for a linux-firmware mailing list. If one is possible
>> >>> > on vger that'd be great, otherwise let me know and I can look for an
>> >>> > alternative outlet.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I've been giving linux-firmware some good love as of late. One of the
>> >>> > issues I have seen with old commits had been lack of eyeball reviews,
>> >>> > and and also ensuring the "right people" do review and get CC'd. While
>> >>> > I do tend to CC everyone and their mom, its easy for me to know who
>> >>> > should be as I'm maintaining the code now -- but I see some folks fail
>> >>> > to capture everyone I know should be reviewing things or might like to
>> >>> > get Cc'd on such topics. Tools like checkpatch help but its not
>> >>> > perfect and now everyone use it. Instead of CC'ing everyone I know
>> >>> > should be Cc'd on linux-firmware stuff I think its time for a proper
>> >>> > mailing list for it.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > This should also help with reviewing old patches and letting new folks
>> >>> > engage more easily by looking at specific dedicate archive of what's
>> >>> > going on.
>> >>>
>> >>> There's already linux-firmware@kernel.org (an alias I think, not sure)
>> >>
>> >> Ah, yes thanks.
>> >>
>> >>> for submitting patches to linux-firmware.git. I think it will be
>> >>> confusing if we will have two separate linux-firmware destinations under
>> >>> kernel.org domain:
>> >>>
>> >>> linux-firmware@kernel.org
>> >>> linux-firmware@vger.kernel.org
>> >>>
>> >>> Maybe rename the new list to linux-fw-dev@vger.kernel.org or something
>> >>> like that to make it more obvious which one is which?
>> >>
>> >> Yeah good call. That's fine by me, but I'll leave it to postmaster to
>> >> also decide.
>> >
>> > One list is enough, I think.
>>
>> Oh, thing is linux-firmware@kernel.org is for patches to the
>> linux-firmare.git tree, meanwhile my request was for
>> drivers/base/firmware_class.c, its respective headers and
>> documentation. I really don't think folks who want to see changes to
>> the firmware_class changes want to see any of the binary blobs that go
>> into linux-firmware.git.
>
> Does a single file, or just a few files, really need a whole new mailing
> list?  I don't think so, let's just stick with lkml for now.

Do users deserve the amount of silly regressions and issues we've seen
over the years on firmware_class ? Would yet-another mailing list help
? I think so.

  Luis

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Luis R. Rodriguez <mcgrof@kernel.org> wrote:
>
> Do users deserve the amount of silly regressions and issues we've seen
> over the years on firmware_class ? Would yet-another mailing list help
> ? I think so.

No.

Boutique mailing lists are generally a _bad_ thing. All it means that
there's an increasingly small "in group" that thinks that they
generate consensus beause nobody disagrees with their small boutique
list, because nobody else even _sees_ that small list.

We should only have mailing lists if they really merit the volume, and
are big enough that there are lots of users.

               Linus

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Linus Torvalds
<torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Luis R. Rodriguez <mcgrof@kernel.org> wrote:
>>
>> Do users deserve the amount of silly regressions and issues we've seen
>> over the years on firmware_class ? Would yet-another mailing list help
>> ? I think so.
>
> No.
>
> Boutique mailing lists are generally a _bad_ thing. All it means that
> there's an increasingly small "in group" that thinks that they
> generate consensus beause nobody disagrees with their small boutique
> list, because nobody else even _sees_ that small list.
>
> We should only have mailing lists if they really merit the volume, and
> are big enough that there are lots of users.

Even many device drivers tend to have mailing lists. While I see the
"in group" thing being a bad thing, I would say a few folks would be a
bit disturbed if they were requested to subscribe and read lkml to get
their driver updates they need to review. Its not clear to me where
the distinction should be made though. I tend to agree perhaps a
*vger* mailing list is not in merit for firmware_class, its not
obvious to me say an infradead.org list might not be in order.

  Luis

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Greg Kroah-Hartman]

On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 01:25:17PM -0700, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Linus Torvalds
> <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Luis R. Rodriguez <mcgrof@kernel.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Do users deserve the amount of silly regressions and issues we've seen
> >> over the years on firmware_class ? Would yet-another mailing list help
> >> ? I think so.
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Boutique mailing lists are generally a _bad_ thing. All it means that
> > there's an increasingly small "in group" that thinks that they
> > generate consensus beause nobody disagrees with their small boutique
> > list, because nobody else even _sees_ that small list.
> >
> > We should only have mailing lists if they really merit the volume, and
> > are big enough that there are lots of users.
> 
> Even many device drivers tend to have mailing lists. While I see the
> "in group" thing being a bad thing, I would say a few folks would be a
> bit disturbed if they were requested to subscribe and read lkml to get
> their driver updates they need to review. Its not clear to me where
> the distinction should be made though. I tend to agree perhaps a
> *vger* mailing list is not in merit for firmware_class, its not
> obvious to me say an infradead.org list might not be in order.

This is infrastructure that drivers use, not something huge and big that
warrents a whole separate mailing list.  Come on now, it's not that big
of a chunk of code, no matter how complex the beast might be :)

greg k-h

> 
>   Luis

Re: New vger mailing list request - linux-firmware

[Luis R. Rodriguez]

On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 10:31:53PM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 01:25:17PM -0700, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Linus Torvalds
> > <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Luis R. Rodriguez <mcgrof@kernel.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Do users deserve the amount of silly regressions and issues we've seen
> > >> over the years on firmware_class ? Would yet-another mailing list help
> > >> ? I think so.
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > > Boutique mailing lists are generally a _bad_ thing. All it means that
> > > there's an increasingly small "in group" that thinks that they
> > > generate consensus beause nobody disagrees with their small boutique
> > > list, because nobody else even _sees_ that small list.
> > >
> > > We should only have mailing lists if they really merit the volume, and
> > > are big enough that there are lots of users.
> > 
> > Even many device drivers tend to have mailing lists. While I see the
> > "in group" thing being a bad thing, I would say a few folks would be a
> > bit disturbed if they were requested to subscribe and read lkml to get
> > their driver updates they need to review. Its not clear to me where
> > the distinction should be made though. I tend to agree perhaps a
> > *vger* mailing list is not in merit for firmware_class, its not
> > obvious to me say an infradead.org list might not be in order.
> 
> This is infrastructure that drivers use, not something huge and big that
> warrents a whole separate mailing list.  Come on now, it's not that big
> of a chunk of code, no matter how complex the beast might be :)

Alright, I'll keep CC'ing tons of you then !

I'd also appreciate if those contributing will also try CC those in this email
except David Miller of course, our benevolent postmaster.

  Luis