From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.1 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_INVALID, DKIM_SIGNED,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC70C63777 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:07:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D772076E for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:07:22 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) header.d=armlinux.org.uk header.i=@armlinux.org.uk header.b="wR1+J7Qm" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S2388171AbgK3THV (ORCPT ); Mon, 30 Nov 2020 14:07:21 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:34616 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1729744AbgK3THU (ORCPT ); Mon, 30 Nov 2020 14:07:20 -0500 Received: from pandora.armlinux.org.uk (pandora.armlinux.org.uk [IPv6:2001:4d48:ad52:32c8:5054:ff:fe00:142]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0911AC0613CF for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 11:06:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=armlinux.org.uk; s=pandora-2019; h=Sender:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mdWSD+1qCx9Ml65+hGn0IHNvQjAC2TF2iTY3oj4yxVk=; b=wR1+J7QmI9WZnC8kywHggy+Es CCTeKBgC1N2bHWhrkOmq1nU7SJds4gsnKnfNb+bxEv1Uw2YNlIbJxspgRniYOM7Q48Tc5SZ69b1k3 1E/wulnROKRozX5Kms9EiFEkqXYTD43EiMQ6TSb8TOt3+FM7OYd7lDxaGpzyWQNSagWaItan4XMdF lc6pMkDYkBFpD5um0bLVhXCZQx/WZnj4j+9nWA4Bkthor07NY0M4p1D7VpGGnct0Wu42qibiyRT2i LBmeMABu2MbdnSKB73/ywRm9KHR3M9qpcm79G2HFZYDKZ3OXJCqv+GrXjBzFkfraAQZQ8SzD6A6Im GU6wa9+9Q==; Received: from shell.armlinux.org.uk ([fd8f:7570:feb6:1:5054:ff:fe00:4ec]:38106) by pandora.armlinux.org.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kjoVO-0007S1-Vw; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:06:35 +0000 Received: from linux by shell.armlinux.org.uk with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kjoVO-0005FN-Bf; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:06:34 +0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:06:34 +0000 From: Russell King - ARM Linux admin To: Linus Torvalds List-Id: Cc: Doug Anderson , Arnd Bergmann , SoC Team , Linux ARM , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Ulf Hansson Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] ARM: SoC fixes for v5.10, part 3 Message-ID: <20201130190634.GA1551@shell.armlinux.org.uk> References: <20201130180523.GZ1551@shell.armlinux.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Sender: Russell King - ARM Linux admin Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:15:29AM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:05 AM Russell King - ARM Linux admin > wrote: > > > > If you think that /dev/sda for example is always the machine's internal > > HDD, that is wrong. > > Yes. See the whole part about > > "Note that it really is only the internal devices that matter. Once you > start plugging in an external USB hug and random devices, ordering > clearly won't be reliable. > > So this is not a "everything must be ordered". But people who think > that that then means "everythinbg can be random" are wrong" > > in my email. > > And the key word here is: > > > I have a HP Pavilion laptop with its internal HDD with a Windows > > installation. Because I didn't want to destroy that in any way, I > > bought an external USB3 SATA enclosure and SSD, and installed Debian > > Stable on there. > > .. but it will still generally be stable with the same hardware > configuration, and not fluctuate randomly from boot to boot when the > hardware is the same. > > Is it a guarantee? No. External plugged in hardware can change things. > In fact, when you have things like Thunderbolt involved, since it just > looks like PCI, even the PCI probing order won't be the same with or > without the plugged-in device. > > But again: avoid randomness. The difference between non-random and > random is that one is predictable and one is not. > > Predictability is good. It's not necessariyl always achievable, but > it's very much something we should strive for VERY HARD. > > Predictability and reproducibility help debugging enormously. It means > that things like "git bisect" work a lot better. It makes user reports > much more understandable when two users with identical hardware see > identical issues. > > Seriously. Anybody who argues against reproducibility is so far out to > lunch that it's not even funny. > > You seem to argue on a complete technicality. Yes, I fully agree - but the problem is that how people read your "avoid randomness". Randomness as in "doesn't change if I change kernel configuration" or "doesn't change order on reboot to a similar kernel". People who have complained about mmc in the past have done so from the point of view of "I changed something, now my mmc block devices are different". It is my understanding that mmc behaves in the same way as exactly what I see on my HP laptop. The device numbering is stable provided the hardware (and indeed software) configuration is stable. If I decide to rebuild the Debian kernel for my HP laptop, and build in the drivers necessary for all its hardware, the internal HDD will switch to being /dev/sda instead of /dev/sdb as it is now... which doesn't seem to be any different from complaints like "I've changed some code in the kernel now my MMC devices have changed order." -- RMK's Patch system: https://www.armlinux.org.uk/developer/patches/ FTTP is here! 40Mbps down 10Mbps up. Decent connectivity at last!