Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 849 bytes --]

Hi!

I publicly apologize.
								Pavel

On Tue 2025-07-15 09:28:19, Shuah Khan wrote:
> Hi Pavel,
> 
> The Code of Conduct Committee has received a complaint about your
> interactions on the mailing list which are in violation of the
> Linux kernel code of conduct.
> 
> We urge you to apologize publicly to make amends within the next
> week.
> 
> Refer to these documents in the kernel repo for information on
> the Code of Conduct and actions taken when violations such as
> these happen.
> 
> https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html
> https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct-interpretation.html#code-of-conduct-interpretation
> 
> thanks,
> -- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)

-- 
I don't work for Nazis and criminals, and neither should you.
Boycott Putin, Trump, and Musk!

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Shuah Khan]

On 7/15/25 13:08, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I publicly apologize.
> 								Pavel

Hi Pavel,

The Code of Conduct Committee holds these conversation privately
with the people involved. Looks like you cc'ed the mailing list.
Respecting your choice, we can continue this conversation publicly.

Chose one or all of these threads to apologize to the developer
directly.

https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2B6UDvk2WB7RWx@duo.ucw.cz/
https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2ClcspT5ESNPGk@duo.ucw.cz/
https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2BjYoCUYUaLGsJ@duo.ucw.cz/

thanks,
-- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)

  
> 
> On Tue 2025-07-15 09:28:19, Shuah Khan wrote:
>> Hi Pavel,
>>
>> The Code of Conduct Committee has received a complaint about your
>> interactions on the mailing list which are in violation of the
>> Linux kernel code of conduct.
>>
>> We urge you to apologize publicly to make amends within the next
>> week.
>>
>> Refer to these documents in the kernel repo for information on
>> the Code of Conduct and actions taken when violations such as
>> these happen.
>>
>> https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html
>> https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct-interpretation.html#code-of-conduct-interpretation
>>
>> thanks,
>> -- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)
> 

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Shuah Khan]

On 7/17/25 10:32, Shuah Khan wrote:
  
> Hi Pavel,
> 
> The Code of Conduct Committee holds these conversation privately
> with the people involved. Looks like you cc'ed the mailing list.
> Respecting your choice, we can continue this conversation publicly.
> 
> Chose one or all of these threads to apologize to the developer
> directly.

If you haven't already done so, chose one or all of these
threads to apologize to the developer and cc code of conduct list.

> 
> https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2B6UDvk2WB7RWx@duo.ucw.cz/
> https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2ClcspT5ESNPGk@duo.ucw.cz/
> https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2BjYoCUYUaLGsJ@duo.ucw.cz/
> 

thanks,
-- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1407 bytes --]

On Thu 2025-07-24 13:18:16, Shuah Khan wrote:
> On 7/17/25 10:32, Shuah Khan wrote:
> > Hi Pavel,
> > 
> > The Code of Conduct Committee holds these conversation privately
> > with the people involved. Looks like you cc'ed the mailing list.
> > Respecting your choice, we can continue this conversation publicly.
> > 
> > Chose one or all of these threads to apologize to the developer
> > directly.
> 
> If you haven't already done so, chose one or all of these
> threads to apologize to the developer and cc code of conduct list.
> 
> > 
> > https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2B6UDvk2WB7RWx@duo.ucw.cz/
> > https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2ClcspT5ESNPGk@duo.ucw.cz/
> > https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2BjYoCUYUaLGsJ@duo.ucw.cz/
> > 

Please clearly state what committee believes I did wrong and what
should I apologize about.

There are clearly multiple actors behind Sasha Levin email address,
and one of them is clearly LLM, sending hallucinations to the list.

Unfortunately, LLM and the human identify them in the same way, as
"Sasha Levin". I am willing to apologize for the confusion, clearly
human is human and has ethics, but I'm not the one who caused the
confusion.

Please explain how to refer to the human being between "Sasha Levin"
email address.

								Pavel
-- 
I don't work for Nazis and criminals, and neither should you.
Boycott Putin, Trump, and Musk!

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Shuah Khan]

On 7/27/25 03:07, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Thu 2025-07-24 13:18:16, Shuah Khan wrote:
>> On 7/17/25 10:32, Shuah Khan wrote:
>>> Hi Pavel,
>>>
>>> The Code of Conduct Committee holds these conversation privately
>>> with the people involved. Looks like you cc'ed the mailing list.
>>> Respecting your choice, we can continue this conversation publicly.
>>>
>>> Chose one or all of these threads to apologize to the developer
>>> directly.
>>
>> If you haven't already done so, chose one or all of these
>> threads to apologize to the developer and cc code of conduct list.
>>
>>>
>>> https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2B6UDvk2WB7RWx@duo.ucw.cz/
>>> https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2ClcspT5ESNPGk@duo.ucw.cz/
>>> https://lore.kernel.org/all/aG2BjYoCUYUaLGsJ@duo.ucw.cz/
>>>
> 
> Please clearly state what committee believes I did wrong and what
> should I apologize about.
> 
> There are clearly multiple actors behind Sasha Levin email address,
> and one of them is clearly LLM, sending hallucinations to the list.
> 
> Unfortunately, LLM and the human identify them in the same way, as
> "Sasha Levin". I am willing to apologize for the confusion, clearly
> human is human and has ethics, but I'm not the one who caused the
> confusion.

The use of LLMs in the development process and rules about such use
including how to clearly state if LLMs are used in the process is a
timely and important topic. It can be confusing when a developer
doesn't clearly state the LLM use.

However, as you acknowledged here that you couldn't tell if these
patches originated from the developer or not. In which case, there
are several constructive ways to move forward to clear up the confusion.

1. Send response to the patch and hold a constructive discussion about
    the confusion.
      
2. Start a separate thread to talk to the developer privately or publicly
    in a respectful and constructive way.

3. Start a Tech board conversation with the TAB.

You didn't take any of the above constructive approaches. Instead your
responses included personal attacks which are visible to community and
others to see.

The Code of Conduct Committee has determined these are personal attacks.
These are a clear violation of the agreed upon code of conduct which can
be easily remedied with an apology.

- https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html
- https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct-interpretation.html#code-of-conduct-interpretation

> 
> Please explain how to refer to the human being between "Sasha Levin"
> email address.

Assume you are speaking to a fellow developer and ask them to give details
on the nature of LLM use in the patch. It will result in a constructive
conversation for these important topics at hand.

thanks,
-- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Theodore Ts'o]

Pavel, you might also want to consider that there is a range of ways
that autmation and/or AI can be used.

*) When coding a patch --- this might include Coccinelle, not just
   Large Language Models

*) When writing text in the body of the e-mail.  And again, it's not
   just LLM, but also scripts that might automate Pull requests, or
   replies that maintainers like Greg K-H use when people send
   malformed patches.

Accusing someone who is using Coccinelle to generate a patch is
somehow lacking ethics is hopefully self-evidently nonsense.  And I'd
argue that if someone uses some AI tool to generate patches, or to
help backport a patch to an LTS release, that is similarly a situation
where to claim that therefore the patch "lacks ethics" also just
does't make any sense.

And with both of these categories, there is a distinction regarding
*how* these tools might be used, and how much the human is in the
loop.  If a human uses a tool like Coccinelle, but spends a lot of
time verifying the result, that's quite different from a situation
where Skynet sends a T-1000 robot back in time which with instrctions
to kill without any human in the loop.

Developers have been using tools to help their work for decades,
starting with Emacs macros, perl and sed scripts, and then on to
Coccinelle, and more recently Large Language Models.  So in many ways,
this is nothing new.

It does seem that in your e-mail messages, that you seem to be
engaging in a bit of "all or nothing" thinking, where if someone is
using some kind of AI tool, that it is automatically the most extreme
end of the spectrum --- and so not only do you not know which e-mails
might have used LLM in some way, you don't know *how* LLM was used,
and how much a human being may have curated the output before sending
the e-mail or the patch.

There are discussions that perhaps people should disclose when LLM's
are used to generate patches, and that might make sense (although
people haven't made similar demands when Emacs macros were used to
help automate say, a global renaming of function or variable).

Regaerdless of how those discussions turn out, your making the
*assumption* that a fellow developer must be lacking in all ethics is
just not a great way to interact with each other.  Whether the tool
involved is a bash script sending patches or a pull request, Emacs, or
Coccinelle, or some Large Language Model, using tools is not grounds
for assuming that all messages sent by a particular person is "lacking
in ethics".

Cheers,

						- Ted

Re: Code of Conduct violation complaint

[Hillf Danton]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 21:08:10 +0200 Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I publicly apologize.
> 								Pavel
> 
Feel free to contact your lawyer before any step forward, Pavel,
according to the First and Fifth Amendment in usa, particularly
before making sure how you violated CoC, based on what law. Why
and how next week was selected, based on what?

Hillf Danton

> On Tue 2025-07-15 09:28:19, Shuah Khan wrote:
> > Hi Pavel,
> > 
> > The Code of Conduct Committee has received a complaint about your
> > interactions on the mailing list which are in violation of the
> > Linux kernel code of conduct.
> > 
> > We urge you to apologize publicly to make amends within the next
> > week.
> > 
> > Refer to these documents in the kernel repo for information on
> > the Code of Conduct and actions taken when violations such as
> > these happen.
> > 
> > https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html
> > https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct-interpretation.html#code-of-conduct-interpretation
> > 
> > thanks,
> > -- Shuah (On behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee)