From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1751923AbaHMJpp (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 Aug 2014 05:45:45 -0400 Received: from mondschein.lichtvoll.de ([194.150.191.11]:57863 "EHLO mail.lichtvoll.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1750772AbaHMJpn (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 Aug 2014 05:45:43 -0400 X-Greylist: delayed 483 seconds by postgrey-1.27 at vger.kernel.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2014 05:45:42 EDT From: Martin Steigerwald To: Peter Zijlstra Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E5ns_Rullg=E5rd?= , Steven Rostedt , Christopher Barry , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: OT: Open letter to the Linux World Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:37:28 +0200 Message-ID: <2838655.H5W5zNkR37@merkaba> User-Agent: KMail/4.15 pre (Linux/3.16.0-tp520-fixcompwrite+; KDE/4.13.3; x86_64; git-411eff3; 2014-08-11) In-Reply-To: <20140813082756.GB2923@twins.programming.kicks-ass.net> References: <20140812153812.2923046a@monolith.infinux.org> <20140813082756.GB2923@twins.programming.kicks-ass.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart5163038.8xgendr2xQ"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org --nextPart5163038.8xgendr2xQ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Am Mittwoch, 13. August 2014, 10:27:56 schrieb Peter Zijlstra: > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:07:05PM +0100, M=C3=A5ns Rullg=C3=A5rd wro= te: > > Steven Rostedt writes: > > > Nice rant, I sympathize with you (just complaining about this on = G+). > >=20 > > Made my day. > >=20 > > > I'm just waiting for Linus to get pissed enough to write his own = init > > > routine. Maybe he'll call it "Boot Init Through Computer Hardware= ". > >=20 > > The trouble is that most of the heavy-weight kernel developers don'= t > > seem to care at all about what goes on in userspace. >=20 > Well, I know for a fact that quite a number do; but so far most peopl= e > who care have been able to steer clear of this trainwreck so we did. >=20 > I'm about to switch all my machines to Gentoo (from Debian) because t= hat > will indeed allow you to build a distro without much of this nonsense= > in -- because as has been eloquently said; you simply don't need this= > fucking shite to run a 'normal' machine. >=20 > And the thing is; we're all very busy so we tend to take the 'easy' w= ay > out for things like this; but wholesale switching all my machines is > indeed painful, and I'm not liking. Just for record: Debian continues and will (for now and supposedly Jessie lifetime) cont= inue to=20 work without systemd as PID 1 using systemd-shim and cgmanager. And no: Debian didn=C2=B4t make the choice easily or without discussion= . I believe=20 this to be the most controversial decision inside the Debian project an= d of=20 the Tech CTTE in a decade or so, *after* tons over tons of discussion b= efore.=20 But one part of the decision is that Debian will continue to support ot= her=20 init systems at the moment. Its still being discussed in about all major Debian mailing lists up to= now=20 popping up every now and then. I am not completely opposed to quite some ideas within systemd, but wha= t=20 really upsets me most in this is the "I know it better than you, go awa= y!"=20 kind of attitude I also experienced with PulseAudio developers who just= give a=20 damn about my use case of wanting to start music playback on one X11 se= ssion=20 and then switch to another session and *continue* to listen to that mus= ic.=20 Just as one example where I ran into problems with PulseAudio I can jus= t get=20 rid of with an easy apt-get purge of it. And yes, this is where I think wisdom is missing and the ability to acc= ept=20 constructive criticism is missing. Not all use cases are the same, its = that=20 simple. Its the attitude of knowing best for others without willing to accept f= eedback=20 and discuss things that I am fed up with totally. If it doesn=C2=B4t fi= t into my own=20 agenda, I don=C2=B4t care, go away. This kind of attitude is not likely= to help in=20 the long time. And I think its exactly this attitude that contributes *= a lot*=20 to the polarity around systemd. If people would get the impression that= =20 systemd upstream acts *sane* and in a *cooperative* way instead of *for= cing*=20 things I think there would be lot less resentment about it. One can have different oppinions about the tone on this mailing list at= times,=20 but so far I never found anyone so stubborn not even to let a feedback = sink in=20 before responding on a regular basis. But I think for systemd developer= s some=20 kind of feedback ridicules their world view by an amount that they just= =20 iptable -j DROP it before even receiving it. They may still answer it, = but=20 also that sometimes to my perception without even having received the f= eedback=20 first. That said, systemd in Debian works for me mostly, except some issues wi= th=20 mounting NFS at the workstation at work. But I will keep sysvinit-core=20= installed for the time being. That all said: I believe that any feedback like this is best served on=20= systemd-devel mailing list =E2=80=93 maybe in an attempt to express it = in a somewhat=20 polite, yet also direct way. Instead of on LKML, debian-user, debian-de= vel and=20 you name it what other mailinglists. Cause that would increase the chan= ce of=20 upstream noticing it. BTW I am still using KDE / Plasma and last I looked on GNOME (in Debian= =20 Wheezy) I just thought "Oh my god" and knowing that GNOME also insists = on=20 PulseAudio, I will continue with a desktop environment that leaves me c= hoice.=20 KDE developers invented Phonon for a reason. One reason is to be indepe= ndent=20 of any insanity going on in the lower layers of multimedia handling. Sa= me=20 thing with Solid. I think meanwhile they rely on systemd-logind, cause=20= ConsoleKit is unmaintained, but at least they do not depend directly on= it. I=20 really hope this will stay this way and they continue to abstract all s= ystemd=20 use away so that in case systemd will not work out in the long term, th= ey can=20 adapt easily. For any account: Depending on a particular init system in a desktop=20 environment is a *bug*. And no way of intelligent arguing around this i= s=20 likely going to convince me of the opposite. Also I think: martin@merkaba:~> ls -l /sbin/init =2Drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 40648 Aug 3 21:01 /sbin/init martin@merkaba:~> ls -l /bin/systemd lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Aug 6 13:41 /bin/systemd -> /lib/systemd/sys= temd martin@merkaba:~> ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd =2Drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1084816 Aug 6 13:42 /lib/systemd/systemd martin@merkaba:~> apt list 2>&1 | egrep "(^systemd/|sysvinit-core)" systemd/unstable,now 208-7 amd64 [installed] sysvinit-core/unstable,now 2.88dsf-53.3 amd64 [installed,automatic] is highly worrying. A one MiB binary as PID 1? Really? I think I would also have separated cgroup managing from PID 1 also for= the=20 price of limited functionality should it not be available. I know there= are=20 arguments of systemd developers against it, but one MiB binary for PID = 1 just=20 asks for trouble and bugs. Ciao, =2D-=20 Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 --nextPart5163038.8xgendr2xQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEABECAAYFAlPrMd0ACgkQmRvqrKWZhMesVgCgqUr4vZS0mEcmbp4c/XkVcMID 0mEAnj5rAWtdXaKD7ST9UKiaSmm4g8Ly =z8Js -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart5163038.8xgendr2xQ--