Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[willy tarreau]

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> Anything which isnt a strict bug fix or previously
> agreed is now 2.2.19 material.

Alan, do you consider it as a bugfix if I tell you
that
we can't get anymore oops with the new bonding code,
even in SMP ?

I've had reports of it working very well, and faster,
for a long time now and the link detection seems
completely OK now. I'd like to specially thank
Constantine Gavrilov for all the tests he has done and
the time he spent in enhancing the documentation.

Please find the patch against 2.2.18pre20 in
attachment, in case you agree.

Regards,
Willy


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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Matti Aarnio]

On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 10:28:46AM +0100, willy tarreau wrote:

  From the patch source:

+CONFIG_BONDING
+  Say 'Y' or 'M' if you wish to be able to 'bond' multiple Ethernet
+  Channels together. This is called 'Etherchannel' by Cisco,
+  'Trunking' by Sun, and 'Bonding' in Linux.

	I think "bonding" is term used in one particular type
	of ISDN multilink calls.

	Cisco Trademark is  EtherChannel -- there the capitalization
	is important.  We could call it ETHERNETCHANNEL (and even
	"Etherchannel" or "ETHERCHANNEL") get away with it clean.

...
> Regards,
> Willy

/Matti Aarnio
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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Constantine Gavrilov]

Matti Aarnio wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 10:28:46AM +0100, willy tarreau wrote:
> 
>   From the patch source:
> 
> +CONFIG_BONDING
> +  Say 'Y' or 'M' if you wish to be able to 'bond' multiple Ethernet
> +  Channels together. This is called 'Etherchannel' by Cisco,
> +  'Trunking' by Sun, and 'Bonding' in Linux.
> 
>         I think "bonding" is term used in one particular type
>         of ISDN multilink calls.
> 
>         Cisco Trademark is  EtherChannel -- there the capitalization
>         is important.  We could call it ETHERNETCHANNEL (and even
>         "Etherchannel" or "ETHERCHANNEL") get away with it clean.
> 
> ...
> > Regards,
> > Willy
> 
> /Matti Aarnio

ISDN uses "channel bonding", not bonding. As for "Etherchannel", let us change
it to "EtherChannel" is this is how it is called.

-- 
----------------------------------------
Constantine Gavrilov
Unix System Administrator and Programmer
Xpert Integrated Systems
1 Shenkar St, Herzliya 46725, Israel
Phone: (972-8)-952-2361
Fax:   (972-9)-952-2366
----------------------------------------
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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Matti Aarnio]

On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:57:45AM +0200, Constantine Gavrilov wrote:
> >         Cisco Trademark is  EtherChannel -- there the capitalization
> >         is important.  We could call it ETHERNETCHANNEL (and even
> >         "Etherchannel" or "ETHERCHANNEL") get away with it clean.
> > ...
> > > Regards,
> > > Willy
> > 
> > /Matti Aarnio
> 
> ISDN uses "channel bonding", not bonding. As for "Etherchannel", let us
> change it to "EtherChannel" is this is how it is called.

	Anything but "EtherChannel" -- trademark people are sometimes
	unpleasant when they consider something being infringed.
	(And nowhere as much as in USA..)

	We dont' have cisco approval of using their trademark in Linux
	kernel feature name, or do we ?

> -- 
> Constantine Gavrilov
> Xpert Integrated Systems
> 1 Shenkar St, Herzliya 46725, Israel

/Matti Aarnio
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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Constantine Gavrilov]

Matti Aarnio wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:57:45AM +0200, Constantine Gavrilov wrote:
> > >         Cisco Trademark is  EtherChannel -- there the capitalization
> > >         is important.  We could call it ETHERNETCHANNEL (and even
> > >         "Etherchannel" or "ETHERCHANNEL") get away with it clean.
> > > ...
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Willy
> > >
> > > /Matti Aarnio
> >
> > ISDN uses "channel bonding", not bonding. As for "Etherchannel", let us
> > change it to "EtherChannel" is this is how it is called.
> 
>         Anything but "EtherChannel" -- trademark people are sometimes
>         unpleasant when they consider something being infringed.
>         (And nowhere as much as in USA..)
> 
>         We dont' have cisco approval of using their trademark in Linux
>         kernel feature name, or do we ?
> 


Gee, we do not call it EtherChannel, we say CISCO calls it EtherChannel. Where
is the infringment here? Are people that paranoid or it is just me who is not
getting it?

-- 
----------------------------------------
Constantine Gavrilov
Unix System Administrator and Programmer
Xpert Integrated Systems
1 Shenkar St, Herzliya 46725, Israel
Phone: (972-8)-952-2361
Fax:   (972-9)-952-2366
----------------------------------------
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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Matti Aarnio]

On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:22:04PM +0200, Constantine Gavrilov wrote:
> Gee, we do not call it EtherChannel, we say CISCO calls it
> EtherChannel. Where is the infringment here? Are people that paranoid
> or it is just me who is not getting it?

	You missed my original point.

	I don't like to call it BONDING.

	"Bonding" is something where two (or more) channels carry data
	in between two participating systems.  Like Multilink-PPP, and
	ISDN Channel Bonding.  Often indeed data goes out somehow inter-
	leaved on the physical links.  (Like ISDN Channel Bonding supplies
	a transparent 128 kbps link instead of two 64 kbps links to the
	upper layers.)

	EtherChannel does select the link (out of the group) by forming
	XOR of source and destination MAC addresses (their lowest bytes),
	and then doing MODULO number-of-links on the result.

	So between systems A and B the flow goes via link 0, in between
	A and C it goes via link 1.  Add there client system D, and it
	may end up into either of the links.

	|-----------|                |------|
	|    A      |-----link-0-----| SW   |---[B]
	|           |-----link-1-----| with |---[C]
	|-----------|                |EthChn|---[D]
	                             |------|


	This gives improved throughput on congested links in between
	two switches, or major server and core switches, while preserving
	data order over the links.

	Blind bonding-type "throw packets on links 0 and 1" MAY end up
	sending ethernet frames out of sequence, which for a few LAN
	based protocols is a great source of upset.


	Beowulf systems have "bonding" in use for parallel Ethernet
	links in between two machines, however THAT is not EtherChannel
	compatible thing!

> -- 
> Constantine Gavrilov

/Matti Aarnio
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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Thomas Davis]

Matti Aarnio wrote:
>         Beowulf systems have "bonding" in use for parallel Ethernet
>         links in between two machines, however THAT is not EtherChannel
>         compatible thing!
> 

Maybe we should adopt's sun naming then, and call it 'Trunking'.

This is the same driver that Beowulf uses, and it is Etherchannel
compatible.

The only part of Etherchannel we don't support is the XOR channel
selection (yuck!) and the automatic configuration of the links (it's a 
MII thing, that's undocumented.)

Leave it as Ethernet Bonding.

-- 
------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
Thomas Davis		| PDSF Project Leader
tadavis@lbl.gov		| 
(510) 486-4524		| "Only a petabyte of data this year?"
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Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21

[Constantine Gavrilov]

willy tarreau wrote:
> 
> > Anything which isnt a strict bug fix or previously
> > agreed is now 2.2.19 material.
> 
> Alan, do you consider it as a bugfix if I tell you
> that
> we can't get anymore oops with the new bonding code,
> even in SMP ?
> 
> I've had reports of it working very well, and faster,
> for a long time now and the link detection seems
> completely OK now. I'd like to specially thank
> Constantine Gavrilov for all the tests he has done and
> the time he spent in enhancing the documentation.
> 
> Please find the patch against 2.2.18pre20 in
> attachment, in case you agree.
> 
> Regards,
> Willy

I do think the new code is much better. Anyone who is considering using trunking
for their projects should use the new code since it has link monitoring and
active backup mode. However, I am a maniac when it comes to kernel testing. If I
say it really works, it usually works. This code has been tested much and bugs
were fixed. However, it has not been tested enough that I may bet by head on
saying there are no known issues. This is because I did not have access to all
hardware that was needed to complete the tests in time.

The code is not worse than the old code. However, a clear note must be made that
this is experimental code and probably has small issues. So if it is included,
it must me marked as experimental.


----------------------------------------
Constantine Gavrilov
Unix System Administrator and Programmer
Xpert Integrated Systems
1 Shenkar St, Herzliya 46725, Israel
Phone: (972-8)-952-2361
Fax:   (972-9)-952-2366
----------------------------------------
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Intel's ANS Driver -vs- Bonding [was Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21]

[Dan Browning]

I think it is great that there is continued valuable developement on the
bonding driver.  Have you guys taken a look at the source code for Intel's
new ANS driver?  For any Intel network card, it will do 8-way Fast
EtherChannel.  Supposedly, it also supports failover (though even
"bonding" driver docs used to say that was impossible because the linux
networking subsystem didn't handle card failures gracefully enough).  

You can check it out at:

http://support.intel.com/support/network/adapter/pro100/100Linux.htm

Maybe some of the code will help in the "bonding" driver development.  I
much prefer bonding over Intel's ANS, because bonding is GPL and works
with any net card.  Etc. etc.  

-Dan

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, willy tarreau wrote:

> > Anything which isnt a strict bug fix or previously
> > agreed is now 2.2.19 material.
> 
> Alan, do you consider it as a bugfix if I tell you
> that
> we can't get anymore oops with the new bonding code,
> even in SMP ?
> 
> I've had reports of it working very well, and faster,
> for a long time now and the link detection seems
> completely OK now. I'd like to specially thank
> Constantine Gavrilov for all the tests he has done and
> the time he spent in enhancing the documentation.
> 
> Please find the patch against 2.2.18pre20 in
> attachment, in case you agree.
> 
> Regards,
> Willy
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!? -- Pour dialoguer en direct avec vos amis, 
> Yahoo! Messenger : http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com

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Re: Intel's ANS Driver -vs- Bonding [was Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21]

[Jeff Garzik]

Dan Browning wrote:
> 
> I think it is great that there is continued valuable developement on the
> bonding driver.  Have you guys taken a look at the source code for Intel's
> new ANS driver?  For any Intel network card, it will do 8-way Fast
> EtherChannel.  Supposedly, it also supports failover (though even
> "bonding" driver docs used to say that was impossible because the linux
> networking subsystem didn't handle card failures gracefully enough).
> 
> You can check it out at:
> 
> http://support.intel.com/support/network/adapter/pro100/100Linux.htm
> 
> Maybe some of the code will help in the "bonding" driver development.  I
> much prefer bonding over Intel's ANS, because bonding is GPL and works
> with any net card.  Etc. etc.

Alas, the license has the BSD documentation requirement, and thus is
incompatible with the GPL...

	Jeff


-- 
Jeff Garzik             |
Building 1024           | Would you like a Twinkie?
MandrakeSoft            |
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Re: Intel's ANS Driver -vs- Bonding [was Re: Linux 2.2.18pre21]

[willy tarreau]

> EtherChannel.  Supposedly, it also supports failover
> (though even "bonding" driver docs used to say that
> was impossible because the linux networking
subsystem
> didn't handle card failures gracefully enough).

the new bonding code supports failover. It probes the
cards itself. Although this is a recommended mode of
operation, it is not the default one because I want it
to keep fully compatible with any implementation based
on the old one.


>
http://support.intel.com/support/network/adapter/pro100/100Linux.htm

I'll take a look, but except for the XOR sending algo,
I don't think much features are missing.

Willy


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