Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Michael D. Crawford]

I said:

> Looking back in the ACPI kernel config help, it says you can use ACPI 
> if you also have APM enabled, which I didn't do at first. 

egger@suse.de (Daniel) replied:

> That's wrong then, you can't use ACPI and APM at the same time. 

I think the documentation in the kernel config help is unclear.  The way it's
phrased seems to imply that you want to use them together.  Thinking about it, I
believe what is really meant is that if ACPI and APM are both enabled, ACPI will
take precedence - but that is not what happens.

 APM gives its message first in the boot process, then later ACPI does.  But
ACPI says something like "APM already present, exiting", so the doc is wrong
both ways you read it, or else ACPI doesn't succeed in the intended behavior to
override APM.

in linux/Documentation/Configure.help, the following text appears in ACPI's
entry:

If both ACPI and Advanced Power Management (APM) support
are configured, ACPI is used.

Perhaps better wording would be (um, perhaps someone could show this clueless
old Mac programmer how to use diff to make a patch?):

If both ACPI and Advanced Power Management (APM) support
are configured, ACPI takes precedence and APM is not used.

but that's not what actually happens, in practice APM gets used.

Anyway, I turned off ACPI in my config and rebuilt my kernel, and I still can't
power off.

Just to make sure, I tried to force the power off with this:

sync
sync
sync
halt -f -p

I got the message "Power Down" but my system stayed on and I was still in my
shell.

I verfied that apmd got started at boot time and that the file /proc/apm exists
and has some stuff in it:

1.14 1.2 0x03 0x01 0xff 0x80 -1% -1 ?

I'm using the binary of halt that came with Slackware 7.1.  Do I need to update
any of my executable programs to work with the new kernel?  The only thing I've
done is installed the latest modutils.  I did download the latest util-linux
from kernel.org but this didn't appear to have the same program Slackware uses -
there's a shutdown program, but on slackware I think shutdown is a script and
there's a halt binary with reboot symlinked to it.

Mike
-- 
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting
http://www.goingware.com/
crawford@goingware.com

   Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[James H. Cloos Jr.]

Michael> APM gives its message first in the boot process, then later
Michael> ACPI does.  But ACPI says something like "APM already
Michael> present, exiting", so the doc is wrong both ways you read it,
Michael> or else ACPI doesn't succeed in the intended behavior to
Michael> override APM.

I get th eopposite behavior.  If both are compiled in only ACPI works.
(Only tested w/ 2.4.0-test kernels, though.)

Either way you need the userspace daemon running to actually do
anything.  Even my notebook's key for toggling full-screen vs
un-expanded display on the lcd does nothing unless apmd or acpid
as applicable are running....

-JimC
-- 
James H. Cloos, Jr.  <http://jhcloos.com/public_key>     1024D/ED7DAEA6 
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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[J . A . Magallon]

On 2001.01.05 James H. Cloos Jr. wrote:
> Michael> APM gives its message first in the boot process, then later
> Michael> ACPI does.  But ACPI says something like "APM already
> Michael> present, exiting", so the doc is wrong both ways you read it,
> Michael> or else ACPI doesn't succeed in the intended behavior to
> Michael> override APM.
> 
> I get th eopposite behavior.  If both are compiled in only ACPI works.
> (Only tested w/ 2.4.0-test kernels, though.)
> 
> Either way you need the userspace daemon running to actually do
> anything.  Even my notebook's key for toggling full-screen vs
> un-expanded display on the lcd does nothing unless apmd or acpid
> as applicable are running....
> 

How is each of your setups, ie, what is compiled in kernel and what is
a module ? My guess is:
- ACPI+APM in kernel: ACPI wins
- APM in kernel, ACPI module; APM starts, blocks ACPI
- and so on....

-- 
J.A. Magallon                                         $> cd pub
mailto:jamagallon@able.es                             $> more beer

Linux werewolf 2.2.19-pre6 #1 SMP Wed Jan 3 21:28:10 CET 2001 i686

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[J . A . Magallon]

On 2001.01.05 J . A . Magallon wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Either way you need the userspace daemon running to actually do
> > anything.  Even my notebook's key for toggling full-screen vs
> > un-expanded display on the lcd does nothing unless apmd or acpid
> > as applicable are running....
> > 

I forgot it. If you just want to power-off:
- activate APM in the BIOS
- activate APM in kernel

I have an SMP box, so APM does not work fully, but just power-off works.
So if for any reason you box says is not capable of doing APM, add this
to lilo.conf:
append="apm=power-off"
so at least this will work.

-- 
J.A. Magallon                                         $> cd pub
mailto:jamagallon@able.es                             $> more beer

Linux werewolf 2.2.19-pre6 #1 SMP Wed Jan 3 21:28:10 CET 2001 i686

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[James H. Cloos Jr.]

>>>>> "JA" == J A Magallon <jamagallon@able.es> writes:

JA> How is each of your setups, ie, what is compiled in kernel and
JA> what is a module ? 

Good point.  I never tried w/ APM in kernel and ACPI as module.  Just
both in and ACPI in / APM module.  (And that last was only due to
operator error when configing the kernel.)

Kernel version may also be a factor when both are in.

-JimC
-- 
James H. Cloos, Jr.  <http://jhcloos.com/public_key>     1024D/ED7DAEA6 
<cloos@jhcloos.com>  E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B  63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[egger]

On  4 Jan, Michael D. Crawford wrote:

> I got the message "Power Down" but my system stayed on and I was still
> in my shell.
 
> I'm using the binary of halt that came with Slackware 7.1.  Do I need
> to update any of my executable programs to work with the new kernel? 
> The only thing I've done is installed the latest modutils.  I did
> download the latest util-linux from kernel.org but this didn't appear
> to have the same program Slackware uses - there's a shutdown program,
> but on slackware I think shutdown is a script and there's a halt
> binary with reboot symlinked to it.

 Try the different APM options in the kernel. One will for sure work
 with your system.

-- 

Servus,
       Daniel

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Michael D. Crawford]

> Silly question, but have you realized that you don't have to enable 
> SMP in kernel to do multithreading ? 

Lest anyone think me completely clueless, yes, I'm well aware of that.  It's
just that I wanted to have that warm fuzzy feeling the comes from pretending I
had the cash to buy a dual processor machine when I bought this PC.

I had planned too, but my laptop died and I needed a new box in a hurry so I had
to get what I could get.  It's a decent motherboard though, for being single
processor.

On the other hand, I did identify that you can't power off with smp enabled
unless (as someone helpfully posted) you give this parameter in lilo or grub:

apm=power-off

While the SMP config option says APM doesn't work if you have SMP enabled (so I
should have known), it would be helpful to mention that you can still power off
this way.

Mike
-- 
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting
http://www.goingware.com/
crawford@goingware.com

   Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[idalton]

On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:18:02PM +0000, Michael D. Crawford wrote:
> > Silly question, but have you realized that you don't have to enable 
> > SMP in kernel to do multithreading ? 
> 
> Lest anyone think me completely clueless, yes, I'm well aware of that.  It's
> just that I wanted to have that warm fuzzy feeling the comes from pretending I
> had the cash to buy a dual processor machine when I bought this PC.
> 
> I had planned too, but my laptop died and I needed a new box in a hurry so I had
> to get what I could get.  It's a decent motherboard though, for being single
> processor.
> 
> On the other hand, I did identify that you can't power off with smp enabled
> unless (as someone helpfully posted) you give this parameter in lilo or grub:
> 
> apm=power-off
> 
> While the SMP config option says APM doesn't work if you have SMP enabled (so I
> should have known), it would be helpful to mention that you can still power off
> this way.

It would be even more helpful to make this into a kernel configuration
option dependant on the SMP setting (disable APM configuration, and ask
'Power off machine on shutdown?' instead).
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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Per Jessen]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:33:06 +0100, J . A . Magallon wrote:

>
>On 2001.01.05 Dominik Kubla wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 10:18:46AM +0100, J . A . Magallon wrote:
>> > 
>> > Silly question, but have you realized that you don't have to enable
>> > SMP in kernel to do multithreading ?
>> > 
>> 
>> That depends on your definition: If you really want to run multiple
>> threads simultaneously (as opposed to concurrent i guess) i imagine
>> you will either need more than one CPU or one of those new beasties
>> which support multiple threads in parallel on their various execution
>> units...
>> 
>
>Nope. You can run multiple threads "simultaneously" on an uniprocessor,
>so simultaneous as the rest of the processes the cpu is running.
>Of course the efficiency of multi-threading drops on an uni-processor
>if your threads only do hard math work and no IO, but a thread can
>be crunchin numbers at the same time one other is waiting for IO even
>on a one cpu box. Think on an app that does read-process-write in loop.
>Two parallel threads on an uniprocessor can overlap IO and process
>and be more efficient than a non-threaded version.

Uh, I guess it is partially a matter of interpretation, but IMHO you
cannot have concurrent processing on a uni-processor (one instruction
stream). One thread at a time will be executing (ie. active on the processor), 
and only one. 
You can however easily do multi-processing/multi-threading on a uni-
processor.


regards,
Per Jessen, Principal Engineer, ENIDAN Technologies
http://www.enidan.com - home of the J1 serial console.





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RE: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Grover, Andrew]

> From: Michael D. Crawford [mailto:crawford@goingware.com]
> > How is each of your setups, ie, what is compiled in kernel 
> and what is 
> > a module ? My guess is: 
> > - ACPI+APM in kernel: ACPI wins 
> > - APM in kernel, ACPI module; APM starts, blocks ACPI 
> > - and so on.... 
> 
> Nope.  If they're both in the kernel, APM wins.
 
> Many folks have given me tips on getting power off to work, 
> I'll screw around to
> see if I can get it to go.  But I guess the fact that ACPI 
> exits if APM is
> enabled is a real bug.

Hey, that's not a bug, that's a feature! ;) ACPI and APM cannot both be
active, so we check on init. However, the fact that the help says ACPI
always wins is incorrect, and will be fixed.

Regards -- Andy

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Michael D. Crawford]

As suggested, I added:

apm=power-off

to the kernel line of my grub menu.lst file and now I can power off. I almost
jumped when the machine snapped off - my bloody monitor doesn't go dark when it
loses signal it lights up with an RGB test pattern (TTX - don't buy one).

I think the real reason it wasn't working was that, although I'm using a
one-processor machine with a motherboard that only allows for one processor, I
had enabled SMP in the kernel, and this disables APM.

In my own work I mostly do multithreaded software development and I just sort of
felt like it would be good karma to enable it even if my machine didn't support
it.  Go figure.  So this was mostly a user error, although I guess I've been
helpful in discovering the current interaction of ACPI and APM.

I'll read up a bit more on ACPI and see what I can do with that later on.

Thanks for the help.  If you're in the neighborhood, stop by:

http://linuxquality.sunsite.dk

Mike
-- 
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting
http://www.goingware.com/
crawford@goingware.com

   Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[J . A . Magallon]

On 2001.01.05 Michael D. Crawford wrote:
> 
> In my own work I mostly do multithreaded software development and I just sort
> of
> felt like it would be good karma to enable it even if my machine didn't
> support
> it.  Go figure.  So this was mostly a user error, although I guess I've been
> helpful in discovering the current interaction of ACPI and APM.
> 

Silly question, but have you realized that you don't have to enable
SMP in kernel to do multithreading ?

-- 
J.A. Magallon                                         $> cd pub
mailto:jamagallon@able.es                             $> more beer

Linux werewolf 2.2.19-pre6 #1 SMP Wed Jan 3 21:28:10 CET 2001 i686

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Dominik Kubla]

On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 10:18:46AM +0100, J . A . Magallon wrote:
> 
> Silly question, but have you realized that you don't have to enable
> SMP in kernel to do multithreading ?
> 

That depends on your definition: If you really want to run multiple
threads simultaneously (as opposed to concurrent i guess) i imagine
you will either need more than one CPU or one of those new beasties
which support multiple threads in parallel on their various execution
units...

Dominik
-- 
http://petition.eurolinux.org/index_html - No Software Patents In Europe!
http://petition.lugs.ch/ (in Switzerland)
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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[J . A . Magallon]

On 2001.01.05 Dominik Kubla wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 10:18:46AM +0100, J . A . Magallon wrote:
> > 
> > Silly question, but have you realized that you don't have to enable
> > SMP in kernel to do multithreading ?
> > 
> 
> That depends on your definition: If you really want to run multiple
> threads simultaneously (as opposed to concurrent i guess) i imagine
> you will either need more than one CPU or one of those new beasties
> which support multiple threads in parallel on their various execution
> units...
> 

Nope. You can run multiple threads "simultaneously" on an uniprocessor,
so simultaneous as the rest of the processes the cpu is running.
Of course the efficiency of multi-threading drops on an uni-processor
if your threads only do hard math work and no IO, but a thread can
be crunchin numbers at the same time one other is waiting for IO even
on a one cpu box. Think on an app that does read-process-write in loop.
Two parallel threads on an uniprocessor can overlap IO and process
and be more efficient than a non-threaded version.

-- 
J.A. Magallon                                         $> cd pub
mailto:jamagallon@able.es                             $> more beer

Linux werewolf 2.2.19-pre6 #1 SMP Wed Jan 3 21:28:10 CET 2001 i686

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Re: How to Power off with ACPI/APM?

[Michael D. Crawford]

> How is each of your setups, ie, what is compiled in kernel and what is 
> a module ? My guess is: 
> - ACPI+APM in kernel: ACPI wins 
> - APM in kernel, ACPI module; APM starts, blocks ACPI 
> - and so on.... 

Nope.  If they're both in the kernel, APM wins.

When I built with both ACPI and APM, and then APM ran first.  ACPI started up in
the kernel, commented that APM was already there, and exited.

Many folks have given me tips on getting power off to work, I'll screw around to
see if I can get it to go.  But I guess the fact that ACPI exits if APM is
enabled is a real bug.

I know it's hip, cool and efficient to use modules but I often start by
hardwiring things into the kernel because I may not have stuff set up right yet
to load the modules after getting the new kernel.  Just saying Y instead of M
often makes things work without further trouble.

CONFIG_PM=y
CONFIG_ACPI=y
CONFIG_APM=y
# CONFIG_APM_IGNORE_USER_SUSPEND is not set
# CONFIG_APM_DO_ENABLE is not set
# CONFIG_APM_CPU_IDLE is not set
# CONFIG_APM_DISPLAY_BLANK is not set
# CONFIG_APM_RTC_IS_GMT is not set
# CONFIG_APM_ALLOW_INTS is not set
# CONFIG_APM_REAL_MODE_POWER_OFF is not set


-- 
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting
http://www.goingware.com/
crawford@goingware.com

   Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
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How to power off with ACPI/APM?

[Michael D. Crawford]

I have an ASUS P3V4X motherboard with an ACPI BIOS.  This is a desktop machine,
and while APM is normally of concern for laptops, it seems to me from what I
read in the kernel config help that I should be able to make the machine power
itself off.

If I have ACPI enabled but not APM, when I do "shutdown -h now", I see these
messages at the end:

Power Down
ACPI: S5 failed

and the machine stays powered on.

Looking back in the ACPI kernel config help, it says you can use ACPI if you
also have APM enabled, which I didn't do at first.   I enabled it, and the "S5
failed" message goes away at the end, but my machine still doesn't power down. 
I notice in the kernel messages at boot time that ACPI says something like "APM
already enabled, exiting".

This isn't that big a deal to me personally (I can always hit the power switch)
but if it's a kernel bug I want to help track it down.  Alternatively, if it's
something I'm doing wrong I can help clarify and document the procedure for
making this work.

I'm using 2.4-prerelease-ac5, which generally seems to be working pretty good
for me.  Other exciting details of this machine are that it has an adaptec 28160
Ultra160 SCSI host bus adapter that works fine with the disk.  I'll try burning
a CD with it shortly.  It's got a Pentium III 667 with 128MB of ram running at
133 MHz, a 3C905B 10/100 ethernet card and a ATI Rage Millenium with 32 MB of
video ram.  I've got XFree86 4.0.1 on it with DRI working (and DRM and AGP
enabled in the kernel) with a VIA chipset on the motherboard - I generally had
little luck ever getting accellerated drivers to work under XFree86 3.x, but
things went much better with 4.  I get on the internet with the ppp_async module
via a 56k external modem.

Mike 
-- 
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting
http://www.goingware.com/
crawford@goingware.com

   Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.
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Re: How to power off with ACPI/APM?

[egger]

On  3 Jan, Michael D. Crawford wrote:

> Looking back in the ACPI kernel config help, it says you can use ACPI
> if you also have APM enabled, which I didn't do at first.

 That's wrong then, you can't use ACPI and APM at the same time.

> I enabled
> it, and the "S5 failed" message goes away at the end, but my machine
> still doesn't power down. I notice in the kernel messages at boot
> time that ACPI says something like "APM already enabled, exiting".

 ACPI doesn't work very well. If you just want your machine powered
 off automatically you might want to try just APM.

-- 

Servus,
       Daniel

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