.br blacklisted ?

.br blacklisted ?

[Rik van Riel]

Hi,

I just got this bounce message when sending my response
to johnod@voicefx.com his question. John, could you set
your spam filters to something more reasonable and make
sure you don't include whole countries ???

[or ... why are you asking questions here if you don't
want an answer?]


(my message)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 20:07:52 -0200 (BRDT)
From: Rik van Riel <riel@conectiva.com.br>
To: John O'Donnell <johnod@voicefx.com>
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: 2.4.0:  __alloc_pages: 3-order allocation failed.                  

(the bounce)
   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<johnod@voicefx.com>
    (reason: 550 5.0.0 We don't accept mail from spammers)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to linsrv.voicefx.com.:
>>> MAIL From:<riel@conectiva.com.br>
<<< 550 5.0.0 We don't accept mail from spammers
554 5.0.0 <johnod@voicefx.com>... Service unavailable


Rik
--
Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...

		http://www.surriel.com/
http://www.conectiva.com/	http://distro.conectiva.com.br/

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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[John O'Donnell]

Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br domain.
I get far less SPAM now!  I cannot express how much I loathe SPAM!
I have taken this one in particular out just for you....  :-)
I am the only one at my company really active on the internet..
apologies
Johnny O

Rik van Riel wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I just got this bounce message when sending my response
> to johnod@voicefx.com his question. John, could you set
> your spam filters to something more reasonable and make
> sure you don't include whole countries ???
> 
> [or ... why are you asking questions here if you don't
> want an answer?]
> 
> 
> (my message)
> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 20:07:52 -0200 (BRDT)
> From: Rik van Riel <riel@conectiva.com.br>
> To: John O'Donnell <johnod@voicefx.com>
> Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: 2.4.0:  __alloc_pages: 3-order allocation failed.                  
> 
> (the bounce)
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> <johnod@voicefx.com>
>     (reason: 550 5.0.0 We don't accept mail from spammers)
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> .... while talking to linsrv.voicefx.com.:
> 
>>>> MAIL From:<riel@conectiva.com.br>
>>> 
> <<< 550 5.0.0 We don't accept mail from spammers
> 554 5.0.0 <johnod@voicefx.com>... Service unavailable
> 
> 
> Rik
> --
> Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
> However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...
> 
> 		http://www.surriel.com/
> http://www.conectiva.com/	http://distro.conectiva.com.br/
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/



-- 
<SomeLamer> what's the difference between chattr and chmod?
<SomeGuru> SomeLamer: man chattr > 1; man chmod > 2; diff -u 1 2 | less
	-- Seen on #linux on irc
=== Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away.===
+==============================+====================================+
| John O'Donnell (Sr. Systems Engineer, Net Admin, Webmaster, etc.) |
| Voice FX Corporation (a subsidiary of Student Advantage)          |
| One Plymouth Meeting         |     E-Mail: johnod@voicefx.com     |
| Suite 610                    |           www.voicefx.com          |
| Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462   |         www.campusdirect.com       |
+==============================+====================================+

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[OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Pedro M. Rodrigues]

   Lucky b*st*rd! ;-) My spam is mostly from USA. Just deleted 78 
of those, and only 7 seemed to be from abroad. I wish i could block 
.com ... ;-)


Pedro


On 7 Jan 2001, at 17:53, John O'Donnell wrote:

> Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
> emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
> typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br
> domain. I get far less SPAM now!  I cannot express how much I loathe
> SPAM! I have taken this one in particular out just for you....  :-) I
> am the only one at my company really active on the internet..
> apologies Johnny O
> 

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Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Michael H. Warfield]

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 12:03:19AM +0100, Pedro M. Rodrigues wrote:

>    Lucky b*st*rd! ;-) My spam is mostly from USA. Just deleted 78 
> of those, and only 7 seemed to be from abroad. I wish i could block 
> .com ... ;-)

	99% of mine is from China (either *.cn or 163.com or some other
numbering .com or .net.  The .org is frowned upon in China - the TLD of
protestors and disidents).  Half of what's left comes from either .kr
or .br.  I'm fully in favor of an Internet Death Penalty against those
TLD's and associated domains till they clean up their acts.

> Pedro


> On 7 Jan 2001, at 17:53, John O'Donnell wrote:

> > Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
> > emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
> > typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br
> > domain. I get far less SPAM now!  I cannot express how much I loathe
> > SPAM! I have taken this one in particular out just for you....  :-) I
> > am the only one at my company really active on the internet..
> > apologies Johnny O

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

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Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> 	99% of mine is from China (either *.cn or 163.com or some other
> numbering .com or .net.  The .org is frowned upon in China - the TLD of
> protestors and disidents).  Half of what's left comes from either .kr
> or .br.  I'm fully in favor of an Internet Death Penalty against those
> TLD's and associated domains till they clean up their acts.

Don't forget .tw and .hk, a favorite of spammers. They seem to have
abandoned .jp and moved on.

There's also the sudden hurricane of spam in the past few months from .ar
for inexplicable reasons. So that gets blocked too. Anyone know why the
sudden burst of .ar spam? Some country-wide government endorsed spamming
program?

-Dan

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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 05:53:16PM -0500, John O'Donnell wrote:
> Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
> emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
> typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br domain.
> I get far less SPAM now!  I cannot express how much I loathe SPAM!
> I have taken this one in particular out just for you....  :-)
> I am the only one at my company really active on the internet..
> apologies
> Johnny O

You are very luckey, I almost never get spam from outside of the US. :(
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Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:16:15PM -0500, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> 	99% of mine is from China (either *.cn or 163.com or some other
> numbering .com or .net.  The .org is frowned upon in China - the TLD of
> protestors and disidents).  Half of what's left comes from either .kr
> or .br.  I'm fully in favor of an Internet Death Penalty against those
> TLD's and associated domains till they clean up their acts.

Yea! 
Next we'll take care of those subversive linux bastards that clog up our big
pipes with their communist kernel downloads!

Unsolicited commercial email is a problem. However, many of the 'solutions'
are worse. Search for teergrube for a less subvertible aid. 

You can pile on technological 'fixes' as much as you want, but no
technological measure that does not totally oppress free use of the Internet
will be affective. Education is the only solution, spam will continue as
long as it is profitable.
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Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Michael H. Warfield]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:27:45PM -0500, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:16:15PM -0500, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > 	99% of mine is from China (either *.cn or 163.com or some other
> > numbering .com or .net.  The .org is frowned upon in China - the TLD of
> > protestors and disidents).  Half of what's left comes from either .kr
> > or .br.  I'm fully in favor of an Internet Death Penalty against those
> > TLD's and associated domains till they clean up their acts.

> Yea! 
> Next we'll take care of those subversive linux bastards that clog up our big
> pipes with their communist kernel downloads!

> Unsolicited commercial email is a problem. However, many of the 'solutions'
> are worse. Search for teergrube for a less subvertible aid. 

	I already run several sugarplum sites with teergrubes.  I also use
various blackhole lists and take other action against spammers, including
blocking entire rogue domains.  If that rogue domain happens to be a two
letter TLD, so be it.  If it gets bad enough, maybe they'll fix it.

> You can pile on technological 'fixes' as much as you want, but no
> technological measure that does not totally oppress free use of the Internet
> will be affective. Education is the only solution, spam will continue as
> long as it is profitable.

	Actually, the most fun with the Chinese is to take advantage
of their "four horsemen of the Infocalypse".  Ours (in the US and many
other western countries) is "Drug Dealing", "Money Laundering",
"Pedophiles", and "Terrorists".  In China it's "Taiwan", "Tibet",
"Dissidents", and "Pornography".

	In discussing the Spam problem with some Chinese officials in
Beijing back in June of last year, they were really ho hum about the
whole thing till I mentioned that a lot of the spam being relayed out
of the Phillipeans through Chinese sites was promoting pornography.
That got some people sitting up real tight.  They didn't care that
their pipeline in and out of China was oversubscribed by an order
of magnitude and spammers were clogging it with trash, but they
damn well did care if that trash had anything to do with pornography.

	I've heard some people suggest that they mail message back to
spam sites in China thanking them for their mail and including some
propaganda on Taiwan or Tibet.  Maybe some Falun Gong literature would
be nice...

	Attack a social problem by turning another social problem loose... :-)

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

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Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Matt Beland]

On Sunday 07 January 2001 18:22, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 07:27:45PM -0500, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:16:15PM -0500, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > > 	99% of mine is from China (either *.cn or 163.com or some other
> > > numbering .com or .net.  The .org is frowned upon in China - the TLD of
> > > protestors and disidents).  Half of what's left comes from either .kr
> > > or .br.  I'm fully in favor of an Internet Death Penalty against those
> > > TLD's and associated domains till they clean up their acts.
> >
> > Yea!
> > Next we'll take care of those subversive linux bastards that clog up our
> > big pipes with their communist kernel downloads!
> >
> > Unsolicited commercial email is a problem. However, many of the
> > 'solutions' are worse. Search for teergrube for a less subvertible aid.
>
> 	I already run several sugarplum sites with teergrubes.  I also use
> various blackhole lists and take other action against spammers, including
> blocking entire rogue domains.  If that rogue domain happens to be a two
> letter TLD, so be it.  If it gets bad enough, maybe they'll fix it.

Hang 'em all and let God and the Devil sort them out? How enlightened...

>
> > You can pile on technological 'fixes' as much as you want, but no
> > technological measure that does not totally oppress free use of the
> > Internet will be affective. Education is the only solution, spam will
> > continue as long as it is profitable.
>
> 	Actually, the most fun with the Chinese is to take advantage
> of their "four horsemen of the Infocalypse".  Ours (in the US and many
> other western countries) is "Drug Dealing", "Money Laundering",
> "Pedophiles", and "Terrorists".  In China it's "Taiwan", "Tibet",
> "Dissidents", and "Pornography".
>
> 	In discussing the Spam problem with some Chinese officials in
> Beijing back in June of last year, they were really ho hum about the
> whole thing till I mentioned that a lot of the spam being relayed out
> of the Phillipeans through Chinese sites was promoting pornography.
> That got some people sitting up real tight.  They didn't care that
> their pipeline in and out of China was oversubscribed by an order
> of magnitude and spammers were clogging it with trash, but they
> damn well did care if that trash had anything to do with pornography.
>
> 	I've heard some people suggest that they mail message back to
> spam sites in China thanking them for their mail and including some
> propaganda on Taiwan or Tibet.  Maybe some Falun Gong literature would
> be nice...

Thereby killing how many hundreds of innocent people? China doesn't much 
believe in fining minor offenders, remember. 

You don't like Spam? Join the club. Blacklisting any domain - ANY domain - 
for spamming, unless you can absolutely prove that no legitimate email has 
ever been sent from that server, is completely unacceptable. You complain 
about the wasted time and bandwidth caused by Spam messages - how much time 
do you waste every year blocking legitimate messages?

Matt
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Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Michael H. Warfield]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 06:31:11PM -0700, Matt Beland wrote:

> Thereby killing how many hundreds of innocent people? China doesn't much 
> believe in fining minor offenders, remember. 

> You don't like Spam? Join the club. Blacklisting any domain - ANY domain - 
> for spamming, unless you can absolutely prove that no legitimate email has 
> ever been sent from that server, is completely unacceptable. You complain 
> about the wasted time and bandwidth caused by Spam messages - how much time 
> do you waste every year blocking legitimate messages?

	Not nearly as much time wasted as the time and bandwidth that
gets wasted for doing nothing.  The problem is bad enough.  Letting
them run wild will make the cesspool stink even worse.

	The sites that get blocked are misconfigured and need to be
fixed.  They're just getting a little more incentive.  Most of the spam
I reject gets rejected before the data transfered (blackhole tagged).
That preserves my resources.  Spot checking indicates that I'm loosing
very little legitimate mail.  Example...  By using DULS RBL, I block the
majority of directed mail from dialup sites.  Spot checking reveals that
my kill ratio is better than 100:1 on that (100 spam to less than 1 legit).
Only site I have ever needed to code an exception for was Bruce Peren's
Map site when he had to move it to a personal connection.  (BTW...  I
spot check by running some sites configured to drop rejected mail in spam
cans and occasionally do this on my main server.  I also check logs for
legit traffic being rejected.)

	Anyone who hits one of my teergrubes has absolutely no legitimate
business what so ever!  There is not a single legitimate address on those
tarpits.  Oh!  The poor sucky spammer got stuck talking to a few thousand
addresses on a machine that takes three minutes to tell him "OK".  Sorry,
no tears...  They get exactly what they deserve.  They got the addresses
by violating the robots.txt rules and harvesting poisoned pages.  That's
the only way they will find those addresses.  Tough.

	BTW...  I'm seeing several spam address harvestors chewing on my
sugarplums every week.  It's getting close to seeing more spam address
harvestors than seeing legitimate search engines through my web sites.

	Mind you...  What I do is actually pretty minor.  The potential
for real damage really exists.  Several anti-spam sites jokingly suggest
that rejection codes should be "4xx" codes instead of "5xx" codes.  Think
about that for a second...  They haven't transferred any data to you but
you tell them to hold that data and try back later (4xx codes signify
temporary errors that may be retried).  So that data sits on their
system until their final retries time out several days (5 days typical)
later.  Now...  Take that and take advantage of the old "percent hack"
that thousands of servers around the net still support (and are vulnerable
open relays in and of their own right).  Send a message to each of those
servers pecent hacking a huge message at the chump you want to target
with a final address of a system that blocks him with a 4xx code.  With
little effort you can totally shut down his mail spool and backup mail
onto the percent hackable servers.  Even if he manually cleans his spool,
he's got another shit load or two waiting for him.

	Sites which permit open relaying are vulnerable to the 4xx code
attacks.  They have an open death trap DoS security vulnerability on them.
The fact that we don't take advantage of it, means we're the nice guys.
We only give them 5xx codes and tell them to go away...

	I have the right to decide, based on what ever criterion I chose,
to accept or reject E-Mail.  For the sites that I administer for a large
E-Mail base, that needs to be in accordance with the established policies.
In most cases, I have a hard time coming up with rules strict enough
to adhere to those policies while still keeping the mail flowing.  The
owners of those sites have a right to dictate those policies.  Not
the senders.

> Matt

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

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[OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 08:22:28PM -0500, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> 	I already run several sugarplum sites with teergrubes.  I also use
> various blackhole lists and take other action against spammers, including
> blocking entire rogue domains.  If that rogue domain happens to be a two
> letter TLD, so be it.  If it gets bad enough, maybe they'll fix it.

You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
majority. This is not acceptable.

When you subscript your mailbox to list of 'spammers' to avoid associating
with them, with the knowledge that you may lose some valuable mail, that is
fine.

The situation is similar to not visiting a gay bar if you don't like
homosexual people. However, that is not what you are doing blocking whole
countries. That is like building concrete barriers around cites to punish
them for not oppressing their own minority citizen ("I'm going to block your
whole country until you outlaw this class of speech I find offensive").

Spam is not good, but destroying freedom is worse. I suggest that every
person who is eager to use oppressive technological measures to stop spammers
please consider the potential wider consequences.

Today the majority thinks spam is wrong, today you are a part of the
majority. The Internet should always avoid the tyranny of the masses, even
when it's operators are a part of the 'mass' today. Tomorrow the issue will
not be spam, and you might not be in the majority.
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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Michael H. Warfield]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 10:30:14PM -0500, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 08:22:28PM -0500, Michael H. Warfield wrote:
> > 	I already run several sugarplum sites with teergrubes.  I also use
> > various blackhole lists and take other action against spammers, including
> > blocking entire rogue domains.  If that rogue domain happens to be a two
> > letter TLD, so be it.  If it gets bad enough, maybe they'll fix it.

> You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
> barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
> majority. This is not acceptable.

	No...  I'm say that their right to free speech does not trump
my right to not have to listen to it or download it and I determine
the criterion, they don't.  I have, in my right to free speech, the
right to say screw off, I don't want to hear it.

> When you subscript your mailbox to list of 'spammers' to avoid associating
> with them, with the knowledge that you may lose some valuable mail, that is
> fine.

	Excuse me???  Clue alert!  I'm not subscribing anything to any
spam mailbox.  I'm not doing jack shit to subscribe myself to anything
to do with them.  I am leaving bait around for them to screw themselves,
but I certainly have the free speech right to do that, now don't I?
I don't go to them and say "subscribe all these addresses".  I don't
say to them, send E-Mail here.  They are trespassing on my systems,
clearly stepping over well delineated boundries.

	I'm really lost by your reasoning on this one.  "Subscribing my
mailbox to a list of 'spammers' to avoid associating with them, with the
knowledge that you loose some valuable mail" makes absolutely no sense
what so ever.  The legitimate mail I may or may not loose has no bearing
on the sugarplum or teergrube systems (which is what I'm assuming that
you are elluding to).

> The situation is similar to not visiting a gay bar if you don't like
> homosexual people. However, that is not what you are doing blocking whole
> countries. That is like building concrete barriers around cites to punish
> them for not oppressing their own minority citizen ("I'm going to block your
> whole country until you outlaw this class of speech I find offensive").

	Tough...  I find the speech offensive, I don't have to listen
to it.  If I find that the level of offensive speech from a particular
source exceeds all value, then I have the right to block it.  They don't
like it, they have a right to change.  Like I said...  I don't take
active action against them.  They have to come to me.  They come to
my web site and step over my limits and contact my systems.  I'm not
going to them.

> Spam is not good, but destroying freedom is worse. I suggest that every
> person who is eager to use oppressive technological measures to stop spammers
> please consider the potential wider consequences.

	Destroying my freedom is just as bad.  I have the freedom to
choose and I have the freedom not to be plagued by the vermin who have
harvested my addresses and are using them in a way that violates my
acceptable use on my addresses.

> Today the majority thinks spam is wrong, today you are a part of the
> majority. The Internet should always avoid the tyranny of the masses, even
> when it's operators are a part of the 'mass' today. Tomorrow the issue will
> not be spam, and you might not be in the majority.

	Not a problem.  Won't be the first time and won't be the last time.
I deal and so shall they.

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  mhw@WittsEnd.com
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
> barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
> majority. This is not acceptable.

See Rowan v. United States Post Office.

*Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.

Under no circumstances does your right to free speech trump the rights of
the unwilling recipient. Full Stop. End of story.

-Dan

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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Dmitri Pogosyan]

Even not specifically disagreeing, but

Dan Hollis wrote:

>
> See Rowan v. United States Post Office.

Why necessarily should I care about United States Post Office
or United States in general ?

>
>
> *Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.
>
> Under no circumstances does your right to free speech trump the rights of
> the unwilling recipient. Full Stop. End of story.
>

Maybe in US, but still is it that clear ? What about TV commercials ? Can
I request
cable company not to transmit them onto my property ?  If not, can your ISP

require you to recieve spam/advertisement as condition of service ?--
CITA, University of Toronto         pogosyan@cita.utoronto.ca
60. St. George Street               tel:  1-416-978-7616 (o)
Toronto, Ontario, M5S 3H8           tel:  1-416-466-4028 (h)
Canada                              fax:  1-416-978-3921



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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 08:24:16PM -0800, Dan Hollis wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
> > barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
> > majority. This is not acceptable.
> 
> See Rowan v. United States Post Office.
> 
> *Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.
> 
> Under no circumstances does your right to free speech trump the rights of
> the unwilling recipient. Full Stop. End of story.

Your right to 'not listen' ends when it becomes attempt to manipulate
companies and government to immorally limit speech of mine which does not
affect you in any way.
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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Matt Beland]

On Sunday 07 January 2001 21:24, Dan Hollis wrote:
> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
>
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
> > barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
> > majority. This is not acceptable.
>
> See Rowan v. United States Post Office.
>
> *Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.

Does it now? How interesting. You can prohibit people from saying things you 
don't like. Hmmm. I suppose that could be useful. I don't like (just as an 
example) any speech from or about people named Dan. Please cease and desist 
immediately or I will blackhole you, your server, your domain, and everyone 
and everything associated with it until the people rise up and kill everyone 
named Dan, or as an acceptable compromise, remove their ability to speak and 
or type, or force them to change their names. That's my right, it's my 
property. Morally wrong? Bah. Your right to prattle on about morality stops 
at my property. 

Point 1: Laws mean jack squat in this case. The lawmakers know little about 
the internet, and until they learn, the laws they pass will continue to be 
irrelevant, confusing, or contradictory. Even when they aren't, no society 
has ever managed a foolproof "unjust law filter". The existence of a law does 
not make that law good, correct, or even legal; reference prohibition, slave 
ownership, women's sufferage or the lack thereof, and roughly 40% of the US 
Tax Code referencing income tax. 

Point 2: Either "information wants to be free", has no physical existence or 
worth, and cannot be controlled, or it has existense, worth, and can be 
controlled as property. You can't have it both ways; either Spam is an 
undesirable side effect of the free flow of information, or information is 
not free and can be controlled. 

Isn't it amazing how some of the people who are so quick to yell when 
Microsoft or Oracle or the government of <insert nation name here> infringes 
on their rights/privacy/information are the first to block the flow of 
information in the name of the same?

>
> Under no circumstances does your right to free speech trump the rights of
> the unwilling recipient. Full Stop. End of story.
>
> -Dan
>
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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 07, 2001 at 08:24:16PM -0800, Dan Hollis wrote:
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > > You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
> > > barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
> > > majority. This is not acceptable.
> > See Rowan v. United States Post Office.
> > *Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.
> > Under no circumstances does your right to free speech trump the rights of
> > the unwilling recipient. Full Stop. End of story.
> Your right to 'not listen' ends when it becomes attempt to manipulate
> companies and government to immorally limit speech of mine which does not
> affect you in any way.

I have a "no solicitation" and "no trespassing" sign on my property.

Tough noogies if you think it's immoral. Doesn't give you the right to
trespass on my property to stuff my mailbox with your stupid drivel.

-Dan

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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Matt Beland wrote:
> On Sunday 07 January 2001 21:24, Dan Hollis wrote:
> > *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> > > You are suggesting that it is acceptable to implement technological
> > > barriers to a minority expressing speech that is unacceptable to the
> > > majority. This is not acceptable.
> > See Rowan v. United States Post Office.
> > *Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.
> Does it now? How interesting. You can prohibit people from saying things you
> don't like.

No, I can prohibit people from forcing their drivel down my throat on my
own property.

Your right to spam doesn't give you the right to trespass.

I'm sorry if that's too hard for you to comprehend.

-Dan

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Re: [OT] Re: [OT] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Dan Hollis]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, Dmitri Pogosyan wrote:
> Dan Hollis wrote:
> > See Rowan v. United States Post Office.
> Why necessarily should I care about United States Post Office
> or United States in general ?

I suspect canadian law has similar precedents.

> > *Your* right to free speech stops at *my* property.
> > Under no circumstances does your right to free speech trump the rights of
> > the unwilling recipient. Full Stop. End of story.
> Maybe in US, but still is it that clear ?

Yep. If religious fuckwits show up on my doorstep pandering their
salvation du jour and I point to the "no solicitation" sign, they can
either leave voluntarily on their own, or involuntarily in police
handcuffs.

> What about TV commercials ? Can I request cable company not to transmit
> them onto my property ?

You can change the channel or turn off the TV.

> If not, can your ISP require you to recieve spam/advertisement as
> condition of service ?

Perhaps, but I can always find another ISP. Of course, you could accept
spam/advertisements as a condition of service (eg free ISPs like netzero).

The key issue though is that you can always stop using the service and you
won't receive any more spam from them.

Spammers on the other hand continue sending
pr0n/make-money-fast/fraud-schemes even when told to stop. And most
relay-rape in order to send their spams. That's trespass.

And you're condoning this?

-Dan

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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Rik van Riel]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John O'Donnell wrote:

> Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
> emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
> typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br domain.
> I get far less SPAM now!

Remind me to never help you with kernel problems again.

Rik
--
Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...

		http://www.surriel.com/
http://www.conectiva.com/	http://distro.conectiva.com.br/

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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[David Ford]

Rik van Riel wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John O'Donnell wrote:
>
> > Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
> > emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
> > typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br domain.
> > I get far less SPAM now!
>
> Remind me to never help you with kernel problems again.

Others on this list blacklist or let others blacklist for them with varying
precision.  Sooner or later everyone is going to be blacklisting everyone
else until it's a daily thing here and no developer or user can talk to any
other devloper or user.

-d


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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Rik van Riel]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, David Ford wrote:
> Rik van Riel wrote:
> > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John O'Donnell wrote:
> >
> > > Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
> > > emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
> > > typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br domain.
> > > I get far less SPAM now!
> >
> > Remind me to never help you with kernel problems again.
>
> Others on this list blacklist or let others blacklist for them
> with varying precision.

So do I. I chose to blacklist John O'Donnell and he will
never get any kernel help from me again (since I can't see
his email).

Rik
--
Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...

		http://www.surriel.com/
http://www.conectiva.com/	http://distro.conectiva.com.br/

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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[John O'Donnell]

Rik van Riel wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, David Ford wrote:
> 
>> Rik van Riel wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John O'Donnell wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Only on my company's e-mail server.  My company typically gets "zero"
>>>> emails from outside the US.  If I get a piece of spam (sorry they are
>>>> typically from outside the US), I just block the entire .com.br domain.
>>>> I get far less SPAM now!
>>> 
>>> Remind me to never help you with kernel problems again.
>> 
>> Others on this list blacklist or let others blacklist for them
>> with varying precision.
> 
> 
> So do I. I chose to blacklist John O'Donnell and he will
> never get any kernel help from me again (since I can't see
> his email).
> 
> Rik
> --
> Virtual memory is like a game you can't win;
> However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose...
> 
> 		http://www.surriel.com/
> http://www.conectiva.com/	http://distro.conectiva.com.br/

Please tell me I just didn't just see this message??!?!?!?!
Please??!?!?!?  What are you doing?
I mean no one person here any disrespect - please do the same.
Why did you say this?  Please tell me?
Please?????   I thought this thread was OVER!


-- 
<SomeLamer> what's the difference between chattr and chmod?
<SomeGuru> SomeLamer: man chattr > 1; man chmod > 2; diff -u 1 2 | less
	-- Seen on #linux on irc
=== Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away.===
+==============================+====================================+
| John O'Donnell (Sr. Systems Engineer, Net Admin, Webmaster, etc.) |
| Voice FX Corporation (a subsidiary of Student Advantage)          |
| One Plymouth Meeting         |     E-Mail: johnod@voicefx.com     |
| Suite 610                    |           www.voicefx.com          |
| Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462   |         www.campusdirect.com       |
+==============================+====================================+

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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Peter Samuelson]

  [Rik van Riel]
> > So do I. I chose to blacklist John O'Donnell and he will never get
> > any kernel help from me again (since I can't see his email).

[John O'Donnell]
> Please tell me I just didn't just see this message??!?!?!?!
> Please??!?!?!?  What are you doing?

Hold on.  First you go and blacklist the entire country of Brazil, then
you actually wonder *why* someone working for a Brazilian company might
blacklist you in return?  The mind boggles.

Dude, I'm all for freedom-of-blacklisting (it is, after all, *your*
mailbox), but you gotta take the consequences!

Peter
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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Roeland Th. Jansen]

On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 03:11:52AM -0500, John O'Donnell wrote:
> Please tell me I just didn't just see this message??!?!?!?!
> Please??!?!?!?  What are you doing?
> I mean no one person here any disrespect - please do the same.

you just got paid for what you did I guess. if you block a whole TLD,
you should oversee the consequences as well. 
-- 
Grobbebol's Home                   |  Don't give in to spammers.   -o)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~bengel       | Use your real e-mail address   /\
Linux 2.2.16 SMP 2x466MHz / 256 MB |        on Usenet.             _\_v  
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Re: .br blacklisted ?

[John O'Donnell]

Roeland Th. Jansen wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 03:11:52AM -0500, John O'Donnell wrote:
> 
>> Please tell me I just didn't just see this message??!?!?!?!
>> Please??!?!?!?  What are you doing?
>> I mean no one person here any disrespect - please do the same.
> 
> 
> you just got paid for what you did I guess. if you block a whole TLD,
> you should oversee the consequences as well. 


 > John O'Donnell (johnod@voicefx.com)
 > Sun, 07 Jan 2001 17:53:16 -0500
 > I have taken this one in particular out just for you.... :-)

I dislike SPAM more than these games.
Eh - "You take the consequences" - Oh well...
Apologies Rik - I admire your toughness.  :-)
Johnny O

-- 
<SomeLamer> what's the difference between chattr and chmod?
<SomeGuru> SomeLamer: man chattr > 1; man chmod > 2; diff -u 1 2 | less
	-- Seen on #linux on irc
=== Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away.===
+==============================+====================================+
| John O'Donnell (Sr. Systems Engineer, Net Admin, Webmaster, etc.) |
| Voice FX Corporation (a subsidiary of Student Advantage)          |
| One Plymouth Meeting         |     E-Mail: johnod@voicefx.com     |
| Suite 610                    |           www.voicefx.com          |
| Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462   |         www.campusdirect.com       |
+==============================+====================================+

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[off topic] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Antony Suter]

John O'Donnell wrote:
> Roeland Th. Jansen wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 03:11:52AM -0500, John O'Donnell wrote:
> >
> >> Please tell me I just didn't just see this message??!?!?!?!
> >> Please??!?!?!?  What are you doing?
> >> I mean no one person here any disrespect - please do the same.
> >
> > you just got paid for what you did I guess. if you block a whole TLD,
> > you should oversee the consequences as well.
> 
> I dislike SPAM more than these games.
> Eh - "You take the consequences" - Oh well...
> Apologies Rik - I admire your toughness.  :-)
> Johnny O

I dont believe this. JohnO, you're a sysadmin and you blacklist the .com
domain of an entire country just because you dont like some spam? You
didn't checkout out any better ways of doing it?

--
- Antony Suter  (antony@mira.net)  "ExWired"  openpgp:71ADFC87
- "...to condense fact from the vapor of nuance."
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Re: [off topic] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[John O'Donnell]

Antony Suter wrote:

> John O'Donnell wrote:
> 
>> Roeland Th. Jansen wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 03:11:52AM -0500, John O'Donnell wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Please tell me I just didn't just see this message??!?!?!?!
>>>> Please??!?!?!?  What are you doing?
>>>> I mean no one person here any disrespect - please do the same.
>>> 
>>> you just got paid for what you did I guess. if you block a whole TLD,
>>> you should oversee the consequences as well.
>> 
>> I dislike SPAM more than these games.
>> Eh - "You take the consequences" - Oh well...
>> Apologies Rik - I admire your toughness.  :-)
>> Johnny O
> 
> 
> I dont believe this. JohnO, you're a sysadmin and you blacklist the .com
> domain of an entire country just because you dont like some spam? You
> didn't checkout out any better ways of doing it?

Maybe you don't understand.  We only have 18 employees!
I am the ONLY person active on the net thru this connection.
I stated this in a prior message.
Yes that is how I do it.  As a matter of fact I just got another
piece of spam that was probably relayed thru a .br domain today
because I took it out of my blacklist.

That didnt take much time, eh?

Return-Path: <lwfvo@msn.com>
Received: from one. (one.ufsc.br [150.162.1.1]) by linsrv.voicefx.com 
(8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f0I8D8R16642 for <johnod@voicefx.com>; Thu, 18 Jan 
2001 03:13:08 -0500
Received: from gnadz.msn.com by one. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA10455; Thu, 18 Jan 2001
                 06:08:20 -0200
            Date:
                 Thu, 18 Jan 2001 06:08:20 -0200
           From:
                 lwfvo@msn.com
    Message-ID:
                 <200101180808.GAA10455@one.>
              To:
                 np1n@hotmail.com
       Reply-To:
                 m0012@consultant.com
         Subject:
                 Merchant Accounts [p7o2a]
  Content-Type:
                 text/plain; charset=us-ascii





  Is your business online?

  Do you have a great service or product?

  Is your business as successful as you want it to be?

  Reply with your
  Name:
  & Phone Number:
                   And we can help

   I work in the merchant sales dept. for one of the
  largest Merchant Account providers on the Internet.

   We provide your business with several different
  options, all built to suit your needs.

   We offer the best Web Malls, with user friendly
  web page builders, Online Shopping Carts, and
  you can accept All Major Credit Cards.

   What ever your needs, we have what you are looking for

    You are 99% guaranteed to get a Merchant Account

   Simply reply to this email with:

   Your Name:
   Phone NUmber:

   And I or one of my partners will help you find the
   account thats right for you.

   While there are other companies that offer you special
   rates, or low prices. We offer the same super low rates
   all the time, with no set up fee's, and low transaction fee's
   you won't find a better price.

   Unlike our competition who only offer service for the US.

   Our Services are available in the United States and Canada.

   Again, just reply to this email with

   Your Name:
   Phone Number:

   And you will start to make the sales faster, get your product
  to your customers when they want it, no more waiting for checks
  to clear, or money transfer hassles.

   Sell your products to your customers and get the money on the
  same day.

   Thank you, and have a nice day.

   George Dratin

  To be removed from this email, please reply with the word remove
  in the subject line, you will be removed. Please note it may take
  up to 48 hours to be removed.  Thanks



-- 
<SomeLamer> what's the difference between chattr and chmod?
<SomeGuru> SomeLamer: man chattr > 1; man chmod > 2; diff -u 1 2 | less
	-- Seen on #linux on irc
=== Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away.===
+==============================+====================================+
| John O'Donnell (Sr. Systems Engineer, Net Admin, Webmaster, etc.) |
| Voice FX Corporation (a subsidiary of Student Advantage)          |
| One Plymouth Meeting         |     E-Mail: johnod@voicefx.com     |
| Suite 610                    |           www.voicefx.com          |
| Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462   |         www.campusdirect.com       |
+==============================+====================================+

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Re: [off topic] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Brad Felmey]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:19:31 -0500, you, "John O'Donnell"
<johnod@voicefx.com>, wrote:

>Maybe you don't understand.

No, John, it's quite obvious that it's _you_ who does not understand.
You've saved yourself some spam and pissed off a good deal of the
kernel list, including the ones who are in the best position to help
you. Was it a good trade?

When so many clueful folks disagree with you, perhaps you should
re-examine your actions and ask yourself if they are all wrong, and
you know better than all of them, or the inverse.
--
Brad Felmey
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Re: [off topic] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[David Ford]

Brad Felmey wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:19:31 -0500, you, "John O'Donnell"
> <johnod@voicefx.com>, wrote:
>
> >Maybe you don't understand.
>
> No, John, it's quite obvious that it's _you_ who does not understand.
> You've saved yourself some spam and pissed off a good deal of the
> kernel list, including the ones who are in the best position to help
> you. Was it a good trade?
>
> When so many clueful folks disagree with you, perhaps you should
> re-examine your actions and ask yourself if they are all wrong, and
> you know better than all of them, or the inverse.

Many disagree, but many here also support ORBS which does some pretty hefty
galaxy wide blacklisting.  Some of those that support it are some of the
powers that be in here.  I.e. clueful folk.

So you can't fault John for personally effecting a policy similar to what
ORBS does en masse.

It's a vicious circle but nobody wants to take the effort to figure out a way
we can all talk in spite of the filtering.  For example, none of the networks
I have permit open relaying and all of them are tested and listed "OK" w/
ORBS, but the only way I can email Alan is to post it here or go use somebody
else's network.  We, the internet, route around brokenness.  For some things
I arranged relays through their network so I could reach my recipients.  What
can you do?  Spend connection fee after connection fee for a new provider
because the provider you were with [which has a strong anti-spam TOS] get's
targetted by ORBS?  I don't think so.

Yes, it's an aggravation and it isn't going to get any better until enough
people get blacklisted.  It doesn't matter how good you, your network, or
your upstream is, as long as there are projects out there that don't care if
they smite 15% good guys as long as they are getting 85% bad guys and there's
nothing reasonable you can do.  I don't consider switching providers every
few months reasonable, especially when given providers are very anti spam in
the first place.

-d

--
..NOTICE fwd: fwd: fwd: type emails will be deleted automatically.
      "There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are
      virtue and talents", Thomas Jefferson [1742-1826], 3rd US President



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Re: [off topic] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[Brad Felmey]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:53:32 +0000, you, David Ford <david@linux.com>,
wrote:

>So you can't fault John for personally effecting a policy similar to what
>ORBS does en masse.

Of course I can. A bad implementation is a bad implementation.
MAPS/ORBS is and has been a royal screwup from the word 'go', and it's
only getting worse with time. Great idea, miserable execution. It is
_not_ the answer, and IMO it's worse than nothing at all. I set up my
own mailserver because my ISP decided to institute stupid stuff like
this (and worse).

My statement still stands. John has obviously annoyed several folks
with this approach to filtering, and has been borderline belligerent
about it. That is not the approach to use when you're approaching
people for help.
--
Brad Felmey
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Re: [off topic] Re: .br blacklisted ?

[David Ford]

Brad Felmey wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:53:32 +0000, you, David Ford <david@linux.com>,
> wrote:
>
> >So you can't fault John for personally effecting a policy similar to what
> >ORBS does en masse.
>
> Of course I can. A bad implementation is a bad implementation.
> MAPS/ORBS is and has been a royal screwup from the word 'go', and it's
> only getting worse with time. Great idea, miserable execution. It is
> _not_ the answer, and IMO it's worse than nothing at all. I set up my
> own mailserver because my ISP decided to institute stupid stuff like
> this (and worse).
>
> My statement still stands. John has obviously annoyed several folks
> with this approach to filtering, and has been borderline belligerent
> about it. That is not the approach to use when you're approaching
> people for help.

I don't think such global filtering is right from either direction, from
those asking or giving help.  But most of us look to the powers that be as
examples.  "If they do it it's ok for me to do it."  So you can say he's
wrong for doing it, but the fault comes from example.

As to your first paragraph, it doesn't much matter to ORBS if you have your
own mail server, they blacklist netblocks and the prevailing HOWTOs don't
explain the OK list or show people what rule to use to accept OK mail
servers.

-d

--
..NOTICE fwd: fwd: fwd: type emails will be deleted automatically.
      "There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are
      virtue and talents", Thomas Jefferson [1742-1826], 3rd US President



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