hotmail can't deal with ECN

hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Jeremy Hansen]

After mentioning ECN, this is the response I received from hotmail.

-jeremy

---

From: MSN Hotmail Support <support_x@hotmail.com>
To: jeremy@xxedgexx.com
Subject: RE: CST23725481ID - Ban on Ecropolis

Jeremy,

Some of the routers and load balencers that we use will drop any packet
that contains any bits in the reserved section of TCP headers.  There are
firmware updates being planned by our vendor, but they are not available
yet.  Also, we have to wait until they are fully stable before we can use
them on our site.  We can't have our routers and load balancers falling
over constantly under stress because of bugs in the firmware.  When we
can, we will update, until then, there is nothing that we can do about
this.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

David
MSN Hotmail Customer Support







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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[David S. Miller]

Jeremy Hansen writes:
 > 
 > After mentioning ECN, this is the response I received from hotmail.

Hmmm...

 > From: MSN Hotmail Support <support_x@hotmail.com>
 > To: jeremy@xxedgexx.com
 > Subject: RE: CST23725481ID - Ban on Ecropolis

 ...

 > There are firmware updates being planned by our vendor, but they
 > are not available yet.
 ...

The problematic systems they have are CISCOs, which we know
have fixes available, therefore these statements are utterly false.

That's it, in 4 weeks time I am putting a kernel onto vger.kernel.org
that speaks ECN.  This is my official and only warning.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Albert D. Cahalan]

> That's it, in 4 weeks time I am putting a kernel onto vger.kernel.org
> that speaks ECN.  This is my official and only warning.

How about some way to test before you do this?
Example: an ecn.kernel.org host that replys to mail.

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[David S. Miller]

Albert D. Cahalan writes:
 > How about some way to test before you do this?
 > Example: an ecn.kernel.org host that replys to mail.

"test"?  I know exactly whats going to happen, and unless folks like
hotmail.com and others get their act together I'll certainly end up
removing *@*hotmail.com from the lists by the end of that day.

That is the whole point of this experiment.

Alan plans on doing similar things to ftp.linux.org.uk and other
machines he maintains.

The behavior of these sites is simply intolerable, and I think
this is a wonderful way to get our point across.  I cannot see it
being argued that these entities have not been given enough notice
of the problem.  If they cannot be bothered to get fixed an issue like
this after nearly half a year, I cannot be bothered to feel bad for
them when all users at their site lose access to the lists.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Jeremy Hansen]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, David S. Miller wrote:

> 
> Albert D. Cahalan writes:
>  > How about some way to test before you do this?
>  > Example: an ecn.kernel.org host that replys to mail.
> 
> "test"?  I know exactly whats going to happen, and unless folks like
> hotmail.com and others get their act together I'll certainly end up
> removing *@*hotmail.com from the lists by the end of that day.

Actually, this is a kick ass idea.  How many hotmail addresses on lkml?
This will definitely get the point across.  They don't seem to get it from
the email I received.  It should have read "Oh, we know about this, but in
order for us to do something, we'd actually have to do work and like
upgrade things and that's a drag.  We'd rather watch Benny Hill reruns and
throw snot balls at our enterprise solutions all day" or something to that
effect.

What's funny is I spent two days thinking my segment was banned from
hotmail for some totally unknown reason before the whole ECN thing popped
into my head.

-jeremy

> That is the whole point of this experiment.
> 
> Alan plans on doing similar things to ftp.linux.org.uk and other
> machines he maintains.
> 
> The behavior of these sites is simply intolerable, and I think
> this is a wonderful way to get our point across.  I cannot see it
> being argued that these entities have not been given enough notice
> of the problem.  If they cannot be bothered to get fixed an issue like
> this after nearly half a year, I cannot be bothered to feel bad for
> them when all users at their site lose access to the lists.
> 
> Later,
> David S. Miller
> davem@redhat.com
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> 


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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[mirabilos]

Intolerable, that's right.
Isn't ECN a good new technology? Isn't there an open implementation
on the `net? - So why don't they at least _start_ converting to it?

mirabilos - favouring security, too

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GO/S dx@ s--: a--->---- C++ UL++++ P--- L++$(-^lang) E----/joe W+(++)
N? o K? w-(+$) O+>+++ M-- V- PS+++@ PE(--) Y+ PGP t+ 5? X+ R+ !tv!----
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[alex]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:13:03AM -0800, David S. Miller wrote:
> 
> Albert D. Cahalan writes:
>  > How about some way to test before you do this?
>  > Example: an ecn.kernel.org host that replys to mail.
> 
> "test"?  I know exactly whats going to happen, and unless folks like
> hotmail.com and others get their act together I'll certainly end up
> removing *@*hotmail.com from the lists by the end of that day.
> 
> That is the whole point of this experiment.

I think the point of a test address is that this could conceivably 
affect more providers than just Hotmail, and it would be useful for people to 
be able to check to make sure their own provider isn't also ECN brain damaged 
so they can yell at them and maybe get the problem fixed  before it happens
instead of just suddenly not getting list mail one day..

Regarding Hotmail.. has anybody actually tried informing them that Cisco has a 
stable patch available?  It's possible they're just misinformed about its 
status.  I do think they should at least be given credit for:

1) Actually responding to inquiries about the issue.
2) Understanding what the issue is.
3) Apparently already being aware that a problem exists, if perhaps mistaken 
   about solutions available.

I have to say that in my experience, this is a helluva lot more on the ball 
than what you'd get from most places, and indicates to me that there may be 
hope yet for getting this fixed.

-alex
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[mirabilos]

Alex wrote:
> Regarding Hotmail.. has anybody actually tried informing them that Cisco has a 
> stable patch available?  It's possible they're just misinformed about its 
> status.  I do think they should at least be given credit for:

Hotmail actually, as whole M$, is unreachable, so no1 could tell it `em.

> I think the point of a test address is that this could conceivably 
> affect more providers than just Hotmail, and it would be useful for people to 
> be able to check to make sure their own provider isn't also ECN brain damaged 
> so they can yell at them and maybe get the problem fixed  before it happens
> instead of just suddenly not getting list mail one day..

Correct - and additionally: what's about Win 95-ME, NT, W2K; *BSD?
When I'm end user they don't block an ECN connection I thought, or do they?
Idea: some1 makes up a web server.
 - If I can connect ECN is working
 - On the site I can enter my mail addy and get a mail there. If it arrives, everything is ok.

mirabilos

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GO/S dx@ s--: a--->---- C++ UL++++ P--- L++$(-^lang) E----/joe W+(++)
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b++++* DI- D+ G(>++) e(^age) h! r(-) y--(!y+) /* lang=NASM, GW-BASIC, C */
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[James H. Cloos Jr.]

>>>>> "alex" == alex  <alex@foogod.com> writes:

alex> I think the point of a test address is that this could
alex> conceivably affect more providers than just Hotmail, and it
alex> would be useful for people to be able to check to make sure
alex> their own provider isn't also ECN brain damaged ...

I have to agree with this.

Are there any well know sites using ECN we can test against?

Doesn't have to be a mail server, of course.  Maybe a web server with
auth lookups turned on?  or an ftp server supporting only non-passive
xfers.  An open squid.  Several possibilities exist for the general
case.  (Although for some who want to test a mail autoresponder may be
the only useable option....)

-JimC
-- 
James H. Cloos, Jr.  <http://jhcloos.com/public_key>     1024D/ED7DAEA6 
<cloos@jhcloos.com>  E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B  63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[David S. Miller]

James H. Cloos Jr. writes:
 > Are there any well know sites using ECN we can test against?

Use non-passive FTP to my workstation and just do a directory listing
which will make the FTP server create a TCP connection back to your
machine for the transfer of the directory listing.

My workstation is pizda.ninka.net, please everyone be nice.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[CaT]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:37:37PM -0800, David S. Miller wrote:
> 
> James H. Cloos Jr. writes:
>  > Are there any well know sites using ECN we can test against?
> 
> Use non-passive FTP to my workstation and just do a directory listing
> which will make the FTP server create a TCP connection back to your
> machine for the transfer of the directory listing.
> 
> My workstation is pizda.ninka.net, please everyone be nice.

*screatches head*

I'm not sure as to what the problem with hotmail may be. I have ECN
turned on:

gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
1

and I can contact hotmail just fine. I also can ftp to your site
non-passively. where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?

-- 
CaT (cat@zip.com.au)		*** Jenna has joined the channel.
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				<Jenna> me, a giant, bullshit
				<Jenna> And i'm not mental
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Jan Niehusmann]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:57AM +1100, CaT wrote:
> I'm not sure as to what the problem with hotmail may be. I have ECN
> turned on:
> 
> gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
> 1
> 
> and I can contact hotmail just fine. I also can ftp to your site
> non-passively. where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?

You may be located behind a firewall that zeroes out the ECN bits. This would
mean that hotmail doesn't get ECN packets and the connection gets established
just as if you were talking to a plain non-ECN server without a firewall.

Jan

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[CaT]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:59:01AM +0100, Jan Niehusmann wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:57AM +1100, CaT wrote:
> > gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
> > 1
> > 
> > and I can contact hotmail just fine. I also can ftp to your site
> > non-passively. where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?
> 
> You may be located behind a firewall that zeroes out the ECN bits. This would
> mean that hotmail doesn't get ECN packets and the connection gets established
> just as if you were talking to a plain non-ECN server without a firewall.

gozer IS my firewall. :) beyond it is a modem and a dailup point, my ISPs
LAN and then the innanet. and I tried from it and from a box behind it.
I connected to hotmail just fine.

still, any way to test if the ECN bits are going through just fine?

-- 
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[David S. Miller]

CaT writes:
 > gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
 > 1
 > 
 > and I can contact hotmail just fine.
 ...
 > where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?

Try telnetting to port 25 on one of their
"*.hotmail.com" MX records.

For example:
? host -a hostmail.com
...
hostmail.com	651 IN	MX	10 mc6.law5.hotmail.com
...
mc6.law5.hotmail.com	383 IN	A	216.33.238.136
? telnet 216.33.238.136 25
Trying 216.33.238.136...
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused
?

Some of the MX records that show up for hotmail.com go
to different machines, such as INKY.SOLINUS.COM which seems
to let ECN connections through just fine.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[CaT]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:04:23PM -0800, David S. Miller wrote:
> 
> CaT writes:
>  > gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
>  > 1
>  > 
>  > and I can contact hotmail just fine.
>  ...
>  > where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?
> 
> Try telnetting to port 25 on one of their
> "*.hotmail.com" MX records.

Boom. Bingo:

gozer:~# telnet mc6.law5.hotmail.com 25
Trying 216.33.238.136...
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused

Big baddaboom :)

And it answers my question of wether or not it does ECN for non-ECN
boxes behind the firewall:

[11:29:31] root@theirongiant:/root>> telnet mc6.law5.hotmail.com 25
Trying 216.33.238.136...
Connected to mc6.law5.hotmail.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
220-HotMail (NO UCE) ESMTP server ready at Thu Jan 25 17:06:07 2001 
220 ESMTP spoken here
554 Transaction failed
Connection closed by foreign host.
[12:06:37] root@theirongiant:/root>> uname -a
Linux theirongiant 2.2.19pre7 #3 Tue Jan 16 18:07:56 EST 2001 i686 unknown

Thanks for that. :) I'll be leaving ECN turned on on the box regardless
I think.

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Steven N. Hirsch]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, David S. Miller wrote:

> "test"?  I know exactly whats going to happen, and unless folks like
> hotmail.com and others get their act together I'll certainly end up
> removing *@*hotmail.com from the lists by the end of that day.
> 
> That is the whole point of this experiment.
> 
> Alan plans on doing similar things to ftp.linux.org.uk and other
> machines he maintains.
> 
> The behavior of these sites is simply intolerable, and I think
> this is a wonderful way to get our point across.  I cannot see it
> being argued that these entities have not been given enough notice
> of the problem.  If they cannot be bothered to get fixed an issue like
> this after nearly half a year, I cannot be bothered to feel bad for
> them when all users at their site lose access to the lists.

Adelphia Communications just blew off my problem complaint (they have a
router between me and the POP server that DENY's ECN), telling me that
they "..won't upgrade the router on the basis of one complaint on a Linux
(read: non-supported by them) system...".




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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Michael B. Trausch]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, David S. Miller wrote:
> 
> Adelphia Communications just blew off my problem complaint (they have a
> router between me and the POP server that DENY's ECN), telling me that
> they "..won't upgrade the router on the basis of one complaint on a Linux
> (read: non-supported by them) system...".
> 

Don't they understand that Linux is actually a system that is growing to
be very popular?

And I would think they would want to support new things with TCP, with a
router and all.  If something is reserved, I would read that to be
reserved, not denied.  Interesting thing - Why would they go out of their
way to deny a few packets if they eventually make use of a few bits?

Eventually, Microsoft will start conforming, I would think, and when that
happens just *watch* everybody follow.

	- Mike

===========================================================================
Michael B. Trausch                                    fd0man@crosswinds.net
Avid Linux User since April, '96!                           AIM:  ML100Smkr

              Contactable via IRC (DALNet) or AIM as ML100Smkr
===========================================================================

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Helge Hafting]

mirabilos wrote:

> Correct - and additionally: what's about Win 95-ME, NT, W2K; *BSD?
> When I'm end user they don't block an ECN connection I thought, or do they?
> Idea: some1 makes up a web server.
>  - If I can connect ECN is working
>  - On the site I can enter my mail addy and get a mail there. If it arrives, everything is ok.
> 

Don't worry.  NT, W2K, etc. have no problems with ECN.  They may not use
the ECN information, but they have no problem with packets using ECN.
The problem is some paranoid firewalls that drop ECN packets - no
matter what the os is on the machine you are trying to reach.

Helge Hafting
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Chris Wedgwood]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:34:47AM -0800, David S. Miller wrote:

    That's it, in 4 weeks time I am putting a kernel onto
    vger.kernel.org that speaks ECN.  This is my official and only
    warning.

Why wait 4 weeks at all? You seem to be very clear how you feel about
the issue; do it now then.


  --cw
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Chris Wedgwood]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:57AM +1100, CaT wrote:

    *screatches head*
    
    I'm not sure as to what the problem with hotmail may be. I have ECN
    turned on:
    
    gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
    1
    
    and I can contact hotmail just fine. I also can ftp to your site
    non-passively. where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?

Your ISP probably transparently proxies/caches your http sessions...


  --cw

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Chris Wedgwood]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:55:00PM -0500, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:

    Adelphia Communications just blew off my problem complaint (they
    have a router between me and the POP server that DENY's ECN),
    telling me that they "..won't upgrade the router on the basis of
    one complaint on a Linux (read: non-supported by them)
    system...".

With treatment like this, I would get a new ISP.



  --cw (who works for an ISP, and has done so for a long time)
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Helge Hafting]

"David S. Miller" wrote:
> 
[...]
> That's it, in 4 weeks time I am putting a kernel onto vger.kernel.org
> that speaks ECN.  This is my official and only warning.

Fine.
Those who get their mail at hotmail can get a free yahoo account
for the list (and possibly other uses as well.)  Yahoo have no
problem with ECN.  Those who wish to complain to hotmail and others
may get more attention by pointing out competitors that work,
and threaten to switch.

Helge Hafting
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[James Sutherland]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, David S. Miller wrote:

> Some of the MX records that show up for hotmail.com go
> to different machines, such as INKY.SOLINUS.COM which seems
> to let ECN connections through just fine.

Ahh.. In which case, *@hotmail.com list subscribers should still get their
mail OK - it will just appear that most of the hotmail mail servers are
down?


James.

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[David S. Miller]

Chris Wedgwood writes:
 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:34:47AM -0800, David S. Miller wrote:
 > 
 >     That's it, in 4 weeks time I am putting a kernel onto
 >     vger.kernel.org that speaks ECN.  This is my official and only
 >     warning.
 > 
 > Why wait 4 weeks at all? You seem to be very clear how you feel about
 > the issue; do it now then.

Because I am at least sympathetic enough with users of the lists that
I am going to offer them sufficient time to go and get a usable ISP if
need be.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Steven N. Hirsch]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Chris Wedgwood wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:55:00PM -0500, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:
> 
>     Adelphia Communications just blew off my problem complaint (they
>     have a router between me and the POP server that DENY's ECN),
>     telling me that they "..won't upgrade the router on the basis of
>     one complaint on a Linux (read: non-supported by them)
>     system...".
> 
> With treatment like this, I would get a new ISP.

If there were any alternatives for high-speed 2-way access in Burlington,
VT I'd be history long ago.  I'm too far from the CO (> 22,000 ft.) for
xDSL, and from what I'm hearing Verizon is even worse than Adelphia.


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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:14:14PM +1300, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:57AM +1100, CaT wrote:
>>     *screatches head*
>>     
>>     I'm not sure as to what the problem with hotmail may be. I have ECN
>>     turned on:
>>     
>>     gozer:~# more /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn 
>>     1
>>     
>>     and I can contact hotmail just fine. I also can ftp to your site
>>     non-passively. where should I go to on hotmail to see it fail?
> 
> Your ISP probably transparently proxies/caches your http sessions...

Anyone know the person at AOL responcible for their proxy?
I bet I know a way to get ECN fixed once and for all. (It's not like AOL
would lose users over it... Their tech support is already very skilled at
telling people it's the remote site's fault. :)  ).
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:15:45PM +1300, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:55:00PM -0500, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:
> 
>     Adelphia Communications just blew off my problem complaint (they
>     have a router between me and the POP server that DENY's ECN),
>     telling me that they "..won't upgrade the router on the basis of
>     one complaint on a Linux (read: non-supported by them)
>     system...".
> 
> With treatment like this, I would get a new ISP.

Adelphia is most likely the only economical broadband provider in his area.
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Thunder from the hill]

> Don't they understand that Linux is actually a system that is growing to
> be very popular?
That's why they ignore and don't support it.

Thunder
---
Woah... I did a "cat /boot/vmlinuz >> /dev/audio" - and I think I heard
god...


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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Thunder from the hill]

"David S. Miller" wrote:
> 
> Chris Wedgwood writes:
>  > On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:34:47AM -0800, David S. Miller wrote:
>  >
>  >     That's it, in 4 weeks time I am putting a kernel onto
>  >     vger.kernel.org that speaks ECN.  This is my official and only
>  >     warning.
>  >
>  > Why wait 4 weeks at all? You seem to be very clear how you feel about
>  > the issue; do it now then.
> 
> Because I am at least sympathetic enough with users of the lists that
> I am going to offer them sufficient time to go and get a usable ISP if
> need be.
Hmmm... Does anyone know whether german ISP T-Online supports ECN? I am
currently customer of T-Online.

Thunder
---
Woah... I did a "cat /boot/vmlinuz >> /dev/audio" - and I think I heard
god...


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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Thunder from the hill]

> Don't they understand that Linux is actually a system that is growing to
> be very popular?
That's why they ignore and don't support it.

Thunder
---
Woah... I did a "cat /boot/vmlinuz >> /dev/audio" - and I think I heard
god.
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Michael B. Trausch]

On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Thunder from the hill wrote:
>
> > Don't they understand that Linux is actually a system that is growing to
> > be very popular?
>
> That's why they ignore and don't support it.
> 

Are you saying that they *don't* want it to become popular?  C'mon,
support for the OS would be *wonderful* from a commercial
standard.  Someone calls in and says "this isn't working..." and they can
say (if it happens to be a bug of some sort), "Well, yes, this was fixed a
few hours ago and here's where you can get the patch."  :-)

Or even supply precompiled and easy-to-install kernels for those that are
braindead and can't be bothered to learn to do it themselves.  They'd
still be getting *lots* of money to do a basically easier job of
supporting something, seeing as the Linux developers are mostly *NOT*
braindead (any of you devs out there let me know if I'm wrong, lol).

	- Mike

===========================================================================
Michael B. Trausch                                    fd0man@crosswinds.net
Avid Linux User since April, '96!                           AIM:  ML100Smkr

              Contactable via IRC (DALNet) or AIM as ML100Smkr
===========================================================================

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[H. Peter Anvin]

Followup to:  <Pine.LNX.4.21.0101300219100.1322-100000@fd0man.accesstoledo.com>
By author:    "Michael B. Trausch" <fd0man@crosswinds.net>
In newsgroup: linux.dev.kernel
>
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Thunder from the hill wrote:
> >
> > > Don't they understand that Linux is actually a system that is growing to
> > > be very popular?
> >
> > That's why they ignore and don't support it.
> > 
> 
> Are you saying that they *don't* want it to become popular?  C'mon,
> support for the OS would be *wonderful* from a commercial
> standard.  Someone calls in and says "this isn't working..." and they can
> say (if it happens to be a bug of some sort), "Well, yes, this was fixed a
> few hours ago and here's where you can get the patch."  :-)
> 

He's keeping in mind who owns Hotmail.  However, I think that's unfair
to the Hotmail guys; all the ones I have ever spoken with have been
very professional and genuinely concerned with standards compliance.

	-hpa
-- 
<hpa@transmeta.com> at work, <hpa@zytor.com> in private!
"Unix gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot."
http://www.zytor.com/~hpa/puzzle.txt
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[David S. Miller]

H. Peter Anvin writes:
 > He's keeping in mind who owns Hotmail.  However, I think that's unfair
 > to the Hotmail guys; all the ones I have ever spoken with have been
 > very professional and genuinely concerned with standards compliance.

Yes, I also think this has nothing to do with who owns
Hotmail.  Please, let's keep this element out of the
dialogue until we have a reason to be suspicious.

Later,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Michael B. Trausch]

On 29 Jan 2001, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> 
> He's keeping in mind who owns Hotmail.  However, I think that's unfair
> to the Hotmail guys; all the ones I have ever spoken with have been
> very professional and genuinely concerned with standards compliance.
> 

I would also keep in mind, that Microsoft doesn't even run their *own*
system on Hotmail.  Currently they're using Solaris, and from what I hear
they might be moving Linux in there fairly soon.

	- Mike

===========================================================================
Michael B. Trausch                                    fd0man@crosswinds.net
Avid Linux User since April, '96!                           AIM:  ML100Smkr

              Contactable via IRC (DALNet) or AIM as ML100Smkr
===========================================================================

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[H. Peter Anvin]

"Michael B. Trausch" wrote:
> 
> On 29 Jan 2001, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> >
> > He's keeping in mind who owns Hotmail.  However, I think that's unfair
> > to the Hotmail guys; all the ones I have ever spoken with have been
> > very professional and genuinely concerned with standards compliance.
> >
> 
> I would also keep in mind, that Microsoft doesn't even run their *own*
> system on Hotmail.  Currently they're using Solaris, and from what I hear
> they might be moving Linux in there fairly soon.
> 

I don't know if that's true.  The headers I've seen from hotmail users --
and Netcraft seem to agree -- indicate that they have migrated over to
Win2K.  I do understand this was a forced migration for non-technical
reasons, and that they had quite a bit of problems.

An interesting exception seem to be the hosts named ad.law*.hotmail.com,
which Netcraft claim to be FreeBSD.

	-hp

-- 
<hpa@transmeta.com> at work, <hpa@zytor.com> in private!
"Unix gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot."
http://www.zytor.com/~hpa/puzzle.txt
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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Michael B. Trausch]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> 
> I don't know if that's true.  The headers I've seen from hotmail users --
> and Netcraft seem to agree -- indicate that they have migrated over to
> Win2K.  I do understand this was a forced migration for non-technical
> reasons, and that they had quite a bit of problems.
> 
> An interesting exception seem to be the hosts named ad.law*.hotmail.com,
> which Netcraft claim to be FreeBSD.
> 

Whoops... my bad.  I was using outdated information.

	- Mike

===========================================================================
Michael B. Trausch                                    fd0man@crosswinds.net
Avid Linux User since April, '96!                           AIM:  ML100Smkr

              Contactable via IRC (DALNet) or AIM as ML100Smkr
===========================================================================

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Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Alan Cox]

> > mean that hotmail doesn't get ECN packets and the connection gets established
> > just as if you were talking to a plain non-ECN server without a firewall.
> 
> gozer IS my firewall. :) beyond it is a modem and a dailup point, my ISPs
> LAN and then the innanet. and I tried from it and from a box behind it.
> I connected to hotmail just fine.

Most likely you are behind a transparent proxy
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RE: hotmail can't deal with ECN

[Sam James]

All,

I updated the Cisco local directors in front of this email cluster.  ECN
should work now, let me know if you have any further troubles.

Adelphia isn't a bad ISP, we are just a little to big for our own good
sometimes, and getting in touch with the right people to solve problems like
this is probably harder than it should be, and I apologize.

Sam James
Network Security Engr.
Adelphia

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steven N. Hirsch [mailto:shirsch@adelphia.net]
>Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 7:52 AM
>To: Chris Wedgwood
>Cc: Steven N. Hirsch; David S. Miller; Albert D. Cahalan;
>linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
>Subject: Re: hotmail can't deal with ECN
>
>
>On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:55:00PM -0500, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:
>> 
>>     Adelphia Communications just blew off my problem complaint (they
>>     have a router between me and the POP server that DENY's ECN),
>>     telling me that they "..won't upgrade the router on the basis of
>>     one complaint on a Linux (read: non-supported by them)
>>     system...".
>> 
>> With treatment like this, I would get a new ISP.
>
>If there were any alternatives for high-speed 2-way access in 
>Burlington,
>VT I'd be history long ago.  I'm too far from the CO (> 22,000 ft.) for
>xDSL, and from what I'm hearing Verizon is even worse than Adelphia.
>
>
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