lkml subject line

lkml subject line

[Guennadi Liakhovetski]

Dear all (and list maintainers in particular)

Wouldn't it be a good idea to prepend all lkml subjects with [LKML] like
many other lists do to distinguish lkml messages from the rest.

Thanks
Guennadi
___

Dr. Guennadi V. Liakhovetski
Department of Applied Mathematics
University of Sheffield, U.K.
email: G.Liakhovetski@sheffield.ac.uk


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Re: lkml subject line

[David Woodhouse]

g.liakhovetski@ragingbull.com said:
>  Wouldn't it be a good idea to prepend all lkml subjects with [LKML]
> like many other lists do to distinguish lkml messages from the rest. 

No. There are already headers you can filter on, without adding crap to the
Subject line making it even harder to skim-read l-k than it already is.	

cf. http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s3-18

--
dwmw2


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Re: lkml subject line

[Matti Aarnio]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 11:20:40AM +0000, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
> Dear all (and list maintainers in particular)
> 
> Wouldn't it be a good idea to prepend all lkml subjects with [LKML] like
> many other lists do to distinguish lkml messages from the rest.

  NO!

  Have you ever seen reply-chains resulting at such schemes ?

    Re: [FOO] Re: [FOO] Re: [FOO] Re: [FOO] subject text

  If you want to pre-filter messages traveling thru  linux-kernel  list,
  all you need to do is to check the content of   Return-Path:  header.

  Or perhaps my utter aborrence is due to the way how GNU MAILMAN handles
  that tagging (badly, that is).

> Thanks
> Guennadi
> ___
> Dr. Guennadi V. Liakhovetski
> email: G.Liakhovetski@sheffield.ac.uk

/Matti Aarnio  -- vger postmaster, not listmaster
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Re: lkml subject line

[Guest section DW]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:33:24PM +0200, Matti Aarnio wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 11:20:40AM +0000, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
> > Dear all (and list maintainers in particular)
> > 
> > Wouldn't it be a good idea to prepend all lkml subjects with [LKML] like
> > many other lists do to distinguish lkml messages from the rest.
> 
>   NO!
> 
>   Have you ever seen reply-chains resulting at such schemes ?
> 
>     Re: [FOO] Re: [FOO] Re: [FOO] Re: [FOO] subject text
> 

Matti - that is not a very good reason.

No doubt we are able to write software that prepends [FOO]
and then removes all other instances on [FOO].
Many mailing lists do precisely that.

There are advantages: distinguish personal messages from
mailing list messages, and distinguish between different
mailing lists. And disadvantages - maybe only one:
sacrificing valuable Subject: line space.

I would not be against a [LK] label.

Andries
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Re: lkml subject line

[David Woodhouse]

dwguest@win.tue.nl said:
>  There are advantages: distinguish personal messages from mailing list
> messages, and distinguish between different mailing lists. And
> disadvantages - maybe only one: sacrificing valuable Subject: line
> space. 

The advantages can all be gained without that disadvantage by just learning 
to filter mail on other headers instead of the subject line.

--
dwmw2


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Re: lkml subject line

[Mike Harrold]

> 
> 
> dwguest@win.tue.nl said:
> >  There are advantages: distinguish personal messages from mailing list
> > messages, and distinguish between different mailing lists. And
> > disadvantages - maybe only one: sacrificing valuable Subject: line
> > space. 
> 
> The advantages can all be gained without that disadvantage by just learning 
> to filter mail on other headers instead of the subject line.

Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
reader).

/Mike
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Re: lkml subject line

[David Woodhouse]

mharrold@cas.org said:
>  Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
> reader).

The MUA is the wrong place to do that. The MDA can do it. And it's far 
easier to change MDA than MUA.

--
dwmw2


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Re: lkml subject line

[Bruce Harada]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:25:47 -0500 (EST)
Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org> wrote:
> > dwguest@win.tue.nl said:
> > The advantages can all be gained without that disadvantage by just
> learning 
> > to filter mail on other headers instead of the subject line.
> 
> Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
> reader).

Use procmail, that's what it's there for (and it won't affect your mail
reader, as long as you're using something reasonably sensible). I filter
on Sender.

--
Bruce Harada
bruce@ask.ne.jp
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Re: lkml subject line

[Mike Harrold]

> 
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:25:47 -0500 (EST)
> Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org> wrote:
> > > dwguest@win.tue.nl said:
> > > The advantages can all be gained without that disadvantage by just
> > learning 
> > > to filter mail on other headers instead of the subject line.
> > 
> > Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
> > reader).
> 
> Use procmail, that's what it's there for (and it won't affect your mail
> reader, as long as you're using something reasonably sensible). I filter
> on Sender.

Maybe I don't *want* the LKML messages in a seperate folder.
Maybe I just want to identify them at a pinch in my inbox?
Maybe my employer doesn't allow me to install additional software anyway?

/Mike
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Re: lkml subject line

[Lars Marowsky-Bree]

On 2001-02-12T11:56:00,
   Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org> said:

> Maybe I don't *want* the LKML messages in a seperate folder.
> Maybe I just want to identify them at a pinch in my inbox?

You can use procmail to modify the subject line of incoming mail too.

> Maybe my employer doesn't allow me to install additional software anyway?

Those would all be your problems and I would suggest using a different account
for mail then.

This discussion happens on every mailing list occasionally, and it is just a
generally bad idea, period.

Especially for a list which is as often crossposted to as lk.

Can we now move on?

Sincerely,
    Lars Marowsky-Brée <lmb@suse.de>

-- 
Perfection is our goal, excellence will be tolerated. -- J. Yahl

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Re: lkml subject line

[Bruce Harada]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:56:00 -0500 (EST)
Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org> wrote:
> > Use procmail, that's what it's there for (and it won't affect your
> > mail
> > reader, as long as you're using something reasonably sensible). I
> > filter on Sender.
> 
> Maybe I don't *want* the LKML messages in a seperate folder.
> Maybe I just want to identify them at a pinch in my inbox?
> Maybe my employer doesn't allow me to install additional software
> anyway?

So in other words, because you like to have all your incoming mail in one
big pile, and your boss is inflexible, everybody else on l-k has to do as
you say? Hm....
Anyway, I think we've cluttered the list enough for today.

--
Bruce Harada
bruce@ask.ne.jp

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[LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Mike Harrold]

> 
> On 2001-02-12T11:56:00,
>    Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org> said:
> 
> > Maybe I don't *want* the LKML messages in a seperate folder.
> > Maybe I just want to identify them at a pinch in my inbox?
> 
> You can use procmail to modify the subject line of incoming mail too.
> 
> > Maybe my employer doesn't allow me to install additional software anyway?
> 
> Those would all be your problems and I would suggest using a different account
> for mail then.

Out of interest, how would that solve anything? So I use an ISP instead.
Then I have to download all my mail to home to read it. Talk about a
total waste of time.

It's hard enough tracking my mail as it is, let alone having to have another
account just to handle a certain mailing list.

> This discussion happens on every mailing list occasionally, and it is just a
> generally bad idea, period.

I disagree, and while I may be in the minority on this list, I am certainly
not in the minority across the board, given that virtually every mailing list
I am subscribed to DOES prepend a tag to the subject line.

> Especially for a list which is as often crossposted to as lk.

This I can buy. But it is, IMHO, the only valid argument against doing so.

> Can we now move on?

Of course. Wouldn't want to interrupt our regular traffic for too long :)

/Mike
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Re: lkml subject line

[Mohammad A. Haque]

Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
filtering?

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:

> Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
> reader).
>
> /Mike
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
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>

-- 

=====================================================================
Mohammad A. Haque                              http://www.haque.net/
                                               mhaque@haque.net

  "Alcohol and calculus don't mix.             Project Lead
   Don't drink and derive." --Unknown          http://wm.themes.org/
                                               batmanppc@themes.org
=====================================================================

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Re: lkml subject line

[Timur Tabi]

** Reply to message from "Mohammad A. Haque" <mhaque@haque.net> on Mon, 12 Feb
2001 13:45:42 -0500 (EST)


> Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
> filtering?

Yes, and most of them are for Linux.  Just go to Freshmeat and browse through
the email client section.  You'll see lots of in-development email clients, and
most of them have "filtering" on the to-do list.

In fact, I was unable to find an full-featured GUI email client for Linux, so
I'm using Polarbar, which is an all-Java client.


-- 
Timur Tabi - ttabi@interactivesi.com
Interactive Silicon - http://www.interactivesi.com

When replying to a mailing-list message, please direct the reply to the mailing list only.  Don't send another copy to me.

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Re: lkml subject line

[Matthew D. Pitts]

Pine, Mutt, there might be a few more.

Just my $0.02.
Matthew.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mohammad A. Haque <mhaque@haque.net>
To: Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org>
Cc: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>; Guest section DW
<dwguest@win.tue.nl>; Matti Aarnio <matti.aarnio@zmailer.org>; Guennadi
Liakhovetski <g.liakhovetski@ragingbull.com>; <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: lkml subject line


> Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
> filtering?
>
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:
>
> > Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
> > reader).
> >
> > /Mike
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel"
in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > Please read the FAQ at  http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/
> >
>
> --
>
> =====================================================================
> Mohammad A. Haque                              http://www.haque.net/
>                                                mhaque@haque.net
>
>   "Alcohol and calculus don't mix.             Project Lead
>    Don't drink and derive." --Unknown          http://wm.themes.org/
>                                                batmanppc@themes.org
> =====================================================================
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/

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Re: lkml subject line

[Guest section DW]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:19:08PM +0000, David Woodhouse wrote:
> 
> dwguest@win.tue.nl said:
> >  There are advantages: distinguish personal messages from mailing list
> > messages, and distinguish between different mailing lists. And
> > disadvantages - maybe only one: sacrificing valuable Subject: line
> > space. 
> 
> The advantages can all be gained without that disadvantage by just learning 
> to filter mail on other headers instead of the subject line.

Correct. But that introduces other disadvantages again.
It may be inconvenient to separate incoming mail into
a number of separate mailboxes that one has to visit
one by one. (Entirely apart from the question whether the
local setup makes it possible or convenient to do any filtering.)
Maybe you had other constructions in mind,
but I cannot think of any that would not waste some time.

Andries
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Re: lkml subject line

[Mohammad A. Haque]

I dunno about mutt, but in pine you can colorize the index based on
rules.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Matthew D. Pitts wrote:

> Pine, Mutt, there might be a few more.
>
> Just my $0.02.
> Matthew.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mohammad A. Haque <mhaque@haque.net>
> To: Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org>
> Cc: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>; Guest section DW
> <dwguest@win.tue.nl>; Matti Aarnio <matti.aarnio@zmailer.org>; Guennadi
> Liakhovetski <g.liakhovetski@ragingbull.com>; <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: lkml subject line
>
>
> > Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
> > filtering?
> >

-- 

=====================================================================
Mohammad A. Haque                              http://www.haque.net/
                                               mhaque@haque.net

  "Alcohol and calculus don't mix.             Project Lead
   Don't drink and derive." --Unknown          http://wm.themes.org/
                                               batmanppc@themes.org
=====================================================================

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Re: lkml subject line

[J . A . Magallon]

On 02.12 Timur Tabi wrote:
> 
> In fact, I was unable to find an full-featured GUI email client for Linux, so
> I'm using Polarbar, which is an all-Java client.
> 

Try balsa. It can handle several pop-imap accounts, folders and subfolders,
threading view of messages and filtering through procmail when retrieving
mail.
Uses the address book of the gnome env (so you can share it).

Much lighter than evolution, does all I need and fast.

http://www.balsa.net
 
-- 
J.A. Magallon                                                      $> cd pub
mailto:jamagallon@able.es                                          $> more beer

Linux werewolf 2.4.1-ac10 #1 SMP Sun Feb 11 23:36:46 CET 2001 i686

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Re: lkml subject line

[Kai Henningsen]

matti.aarnio@zmailer.org (Matti Aarnio)  wrote on 12.02.01 in <20010212133324.B15688@mea-ext.zmailer.org>:

> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 11:20:40AM +0000, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
> > Dear all (and list maintainers in particular)
> >
> > Wouldn't it be a good idea to prepend all lkml subjects with [LKML] like
> > many other lists do to distinguish lkml messages from the rest.
>
>   NO!

Indeed. What a bad idea that would be.

>   If you want to pre-filter messages traveling thru  linux-kernel  list,
>   all you need to do is to check the content of   Return-Path:  header.

On the other hand, that's also not a very good scheme. There *is* a good  
way to do this, and it would be really nice if vger could be taught to do  
it: add a List-Id: header (draft-chandhok-listid-04.txt RFC-to-be,  
implemented in lots of mailing list managers already).

Examples from that doc:

    List-Id: List Header Mailing List <list-header.nisto.com>
    List-Id: <commonspace-users.list-id.within.com>
    List-Id: "Lena's Personal Joke List"
             <lenas-jokes.da39efc25c530ad145d41b86f7420c3b.021999.localhost>
    List-Id: "An internal CMU List" <0Jks9449.list-id.cmu.edu>
    List-Id: <da39efc25c530ad145d41b86f7420c3b.052000.localhost>

>   Or perhaps my utter aborrence is due to the way how GNU MAILMAN handles
>   that tagging (badly, that is).

Mailman, incidentally, _has_ List-Id: support.

> /Matti Aarnio  -- vger postmaster, not listmaster

Still ...


MfG Kai
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Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Gerhard Mack]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:

> > Those would all be your problems and I would suggest using a different account
> > for mail then.
> 
> Out of interest, how would that solve anything? So I use an ISP instead.
> Then I have to download all my mail to home to read it. Talk about a
> total waste of time.
> 
> It's hard enough tracking my mail as it is, let alone having to have another
> account just to handle a certain mailing list.
> 

Put procmail on the other account .. make it modify the subject as you
wish then forward the mail to your regular account. 

	Gerhard

--
Gerhard Mack

gmack@innerfire.net

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

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Re: lkml subject line

[Gerhard Mack]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Matthew D. Pitts wrote:

> Pine, Mutt, there might be a few more.

That's a load of crap ... why should pine filter when you have procmail
just sitting there?


> 
> Just my $0.02.
> Matthew.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mohammad A. Haque <mhaque@haque.net>
> To: Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org>
> Cc: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>; Guest section DW
> <dwguest@win.tue.nl>; Matti Aarnio <matti.aarnio@zmailer.org>; Guennadi
> Liakhovetski <g.liakhovetski@ragingbull.com>; <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: lkml subject line
> 
> 
> > Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
> > filtering?
> >
> > On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:
> >
> > > Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
> > > reader).
> > >
> > > /Mike
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel"
> in
> > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > Please read the FAQ at  http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > =====================================================================
> > Mohammad A. Haque                              http://www.haque.net/
> >                                                mhaque@haque.net
> >
> >   "Alcohol and calculus don't mix.             Project Lead
> >    Don't drink and derive." --Unknown          http://wm.themes.org/
> >                                                batmanppc@themes.org
> > =====================================================================
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > Please read the FAQ at  http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
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> 

--
Gerhard Mack

gmack@innerfire.net

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

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Re: lkml subject line

[Eli Carter]

Kai Henningsen wrote:
> 
> matti.aarnio@zmailer.org (Matti Aarnio)  wrote on 12.02.01 in <20010212133324.B15688@mea-ext.zmailer.org>:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 11:20:40AM +0000, Guennadi Liakhovetski wrote:
> > > Dear all (and list maintainers in particular)
> > >
> > > Wouldn't it be a good idea to prepend all lkml subjects with [LKML] like
> > > many other lists do to distinguish lkml messages from the rest.
> >
> >   NO!
> 
> Indeed. What a bad idea that would be.
> 
> >   If you want to pre-filter messages traveling thru  linux-kernel  list,
> >   all you need to do is to check the content of   Return-Path:  header.
> 
> On the other hand, that's also not a very good scheme. There *is* a good
> way to do this, and it would be really nice if vger could be taught to do
> it: add a List-Id: header (draft-chandhok-listid-04.txt RFC-to-be,
> implemented in lots of mailing list managers already).

Have you looked at the headers in an LK email?

Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
X-Mailing-List:         linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Should provide that List-Id you want.

Eli
--------------------.              Rule of Accuracy: When working toward
Eli Carter          |               the solution of a problem, it always 
eli.carter@inet.com `--------------------- helps if you know the answer.
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Re: lkml subject line

[Mohammad A. Haque]

Or you could just check Sender which is already there.

On 12 Feb 2001, Kai Henningsen wrote:

>
> Indeed. What a bad idea that would be.
>
> >   If you want to pre-filter messages traveling thru  linux-kernel  list,
> >   all you need to do is to check the content of   Return-Path:  header.
>
> On the other hand, that's also not a very good scheme. There *is* a good
> way to do this, and it would be really nice if vger could be taught to do
> it: add a List-Id: header (draft-chandhok-listid-04.txt RFC-to-be,
> implemented in lots of mailing list managers already).
>
> Examples from that doc:
>
>     List-Id: List Header Mailing List <list-header.nisto.com>
>     List-Id: <commonspace-users.list-id.within.com>
>     List-Id: "Lena's Personal Joke List"
>              <lenas-jokes.da39efc25c530ad145d41b86f7420c3b.021999.localhost>
>     List-Id: "An internal CMU List" <0Jks9449.list-id.cmu.edu>
>     List-Id: <da39efc25c530ad145d41b86f7420c3b.052000.localhost>
>
> >   Or perhaps my utter aborrence is due to the way how GNU MAILMAN handles
> >   that tagging (badly, that is).
>
> Mailman, incidentally, _has_ List-Id: support.
>

-- 

=====================================================================
Mohammad A. Haque                              http://www.haque.net/
                                               mhaque@haque.net

  "Alcohol and calculus don't mix.             Project Lead
   Don't drink and derive." --Unknown          http://wm.themes.org/
                                               batmanppc@themes.org
=====================================================================

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Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:

>> >  There are advantages: distinguish personal messages from mailing list
>> > messages, and distinguish between different mailing lists. And
>> > disadvantages - maybe only one: sacrificing valuable Subject: line
>> > space.
>>
>> The advantages can all be gained without that disadvantage by just learning
>> to filter mail on other headers instead of the subject line.
>
>Assuming your mail reader can do that (and no, I can't change my mail
>reader).

You can use procmail to filter your mail VERY easily.  Penalizing
an entire list of 7000 people or more just because 3 people can't
use a sane modern mail reader is just senseless.

This filters linux-kernel into the folder LINUX-KERNEL

cat >> ~/.procmailrc <<EOF
:0:
* ^X-Mailing-List:.*linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
* ^Sender:.*linux-kernel-owner@vger
LINUX-KERNEL

EOF

That said, and while we're on the topic.. Does anyone have a
*PERFECT* recipe for procmail to REMOVE the stupid [Dummy] things
most GNU mailman lists and others prepend to the subject?

xpert@xfree86.org is one such list and I have given up on
complaining to list maintainers of other lists to change this,
and would rather fix it on my end once than complain to others.

I asked on procmail-list and got some feedback but it didn't give
me a useable filter..

Any help appreciated..
TTYL

----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If it weren't for C, we'd all be programming in BASI and OBOL.

Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:

>> Use procmail, that's what it's there for (and it won't affect your mail
>> reader, as long as you're using something reasonably sensible). I filter
>> on Sender.
>
>Maybe I don't *want* the LKML messages in a seperate folder.
>Maybe I just want to identify them at a pinch in my inbox?
>Maybe my employer doesn't allow me to install additional software anyway?

Maybe you're just being unreasonable for the sake of trolling.
Nobody is going to change this list to do [LKML], and this topic
comes up at least once every 6 months.  Matti and Dave run the
list and it has been stated it WILL NOT HAPPEN.

If you use procmail, you can filter lkml into a folder.  If you
want to have it in one folder, use the search feature of your
mailreader to sort by header line (Sender) or else use procmail
and formail to INSERT the [lkml] thing to the subject line
yourself.

procmail is installed on probably 99.9999999999999% of all
machines in existance.  If it isn't on yours and your employer
will not install it, I'll be REALLY surprised.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for Linux software?   http://freshmeat.net  http://www.rpmfind.net
http://filewatcher.org  http://www.coldstorage.org  http://sourceforge.net

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:

>> Those would all be your problems and I would suggest using a different account
>> for mail then.
>
>Out of interest, how would that solve anything? So I use an ISP instead.
>Then I have to download all my mail to home to read it. Talk about a
>total waste of time.
>
>It's hard enough tracking my mail as it is, let alone having to have another
>account just to handle a certain mailing list.

2 words:  Your problem.  Many have suggested solutions, but
you're playing the "I don't care, I want it my way and I don't
care what you say" game, of which nobody is going to budge on,
especially for one single person who is being unreasonable.


>> This discussion happens on every mailing list occasionally, and it is just a
>> generally bad idea, period.
>
>I disagree, and while I may be in the minority on this list, I am certainly
>not in the minority across the board, given that virtually every mailing list
>I am subscribed to DOES prepend a tag to the subject line.

Which is retarded.  The subject line is for the subject.  Other
headers exist for letting one know where they came from.


>> Especially for a list which is as often crossposted to as lk.
>
>This I can buy. But it is, IMHO, the only valid argument against doing so.

Exactly IYHO.  Nobody else - at least nobody that matters agrees
with you.

>> Can we now move on?
>
>Of course. Wouldn't want to interrupt our regular traffic for too long :)

Why not.  Might as well get it all out now, it has been at least
6 months since this topic came up.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for Linux software?   http://freshmeat.net  http://www.rpmfind.net
http://filewatcher.org  http://www.coldstorage.org  http://sourceforge.net

Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mohammad A. Haque wrote:

>Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
>filtering?

He uses Elm, which as far as I know is obsolete, unmaintained and
full of bugs and even has Y2K problems.  That is the last I heard
anyway.  Alan Cox would likely know more, and has perhaps even
fixed Elm.

PINE is virtually everywhere, and is a good elm replacement,
having been initially based on the elm code... (PINE==Pine Is Not
Elm)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0

Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Matthew D. Pitts wrote:

>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:05:34 -0500
>From: Matthew D. Pitts <mpitts@suite224.net>
>To: Mohammad A. Haque <mhaque@haque.net>, Mike Harrold <mharrold@cas.org>
>Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Subject: Re: lkml subject line
>
>Pine, Mutt, there might be a few more.

Sorry there... PINE *DOES* do filtering, and has for quite some
time.

Main menu ->Setup->Rules->Filtering

Or just hit "T" in a message or index "F-> Take to Filter"....


----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for Linux software?   http://freshmeat.net  http://www.rpmfind.net
http://filewatcher.org  http://www.coldstorage.org  http://sourceforge.net

Re: lkml subject line

[Sven Koch]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Mike A. Harris wrote:

[cc-list trimmed]

> That said, and while we're on the topic.. Does anyone have a
> *PERFECT* recipe for procmail to REMOVE the stupid [Dummy] things
> most GNU mailman lists and others prepend to the subject?

I am using the following to sort the suse-security-list (for example, I do
the same on all lists that tag something into the subject):

:0 fhw
* ^TO_suse-security@suse.com
| sed -e '/^Subject:/s/\[suse-security\] //'
:0 A:
SuSE-Security$MONTH


c'ya
sven

-- 

The Internet treats censorship as a routing problem, and routes around it.
(John Gilmore on http://www.cygnus.com/~gnu/)

Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Sven Koch wrote:

>> That said, and while we're on the topic.. Does anyone have a
>> *PERFECT* recipe for procmail to REMOVE the stupid [Dummy] things
>> most GNU mailman lists and others prepend to the subject?
>
>I am using the following to sort the suse-security-list (for example, I do
>the same on all lists that tag something into the subject):
>
>:0 fhw
>* ^TO_suse-security@suse.com
>| sed -e '/^Subject:/s/\[suse-security\] //'
>:0 A:
>SuSE-Security$MONTH

DAMN!  I was _SO_ close!  I'm no sed expert, but I have been
working the last hour or so on nailing this down and here is what
I had:

:0:
* ^Subject:.*testxpert
{
    :0 fWh
    * ^Subject:.*\[Xpert\]
    | sed -e '/^Subject:/ s/\[Xpert\]//g' >> XPERT
}

Didn't work of course, but I got the sed line right by the looks
of it.  Should ever we meet, I'm buying the beer good man!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Need general help or technical support with Red Hat Linux 7.0?  Join the user 
support mailing list by sending a message to "guinness-list-request@redhat.com"
with the word "subscribe" on the subject line.

Re: lkml subject line

[Alan Cox]

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mohammad A. Haque wrote:
> >Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
> >filtering?
> 
> He uses Elm, which as far as I know is obsolete, unmaintained and
> full of bugs and even has Y2K problems.  That is the last I heard
> anyway.  Alan Cox would likely know more, and has perhaps even
> fixed Elm.

Elm has maintainers it has the bugs fixed, it just doesnt want to evolve 
any further. Rumours of its death have been greatly exaggerated.

> PINE is virtually everywhere, and is a good elm replacement,
> having been initially based on the elm code... (PINE==Pine Is Not
> Elm)

I've played with both pine and mutt. mutt is by the better mail system IMHO,
but pine has an easier learning curve.

Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

>> >Is there a mail reader nowadays that doesn't let you do some sort of
>> >filtering?
>>
>> He uses Elm, which as far as I know is obsolete, unmaintained and
>> full of bugs and even has Y2K problems.  That is the last I heard
>> anyway.  Alan Cox would likely know more, and has perhaps even
>> fixed Elm.
>
>Elm has maintainers it has the bugs fixed, it just doesnt want to evolve
>any further. Rumours of its death have been greatly exaggerated.

Ok.  Didn't know that it was maintained.  I knew that you would
set the record straight either way though.  ;o)

>> PINE is virtually everywhere, and is a good elm replacement,
>> having been initially based on the elm code... (PINE==Pine Is Not
>> Elm)
>
>I've played with both pine and mutt. mutt is by the better mail system IMHO,
>but pine has an easier learning curve.

I can't comment there much..  I've used PINE since about 1993 and
fell in love with it after using PMDF in VMS (which sucks by
comparison).  PINE by default is simple to use for beginners, but
if you go into setup and enable all the advanced stuff it is
incredibly powerful.  I tried mutt once but couldn't handle the
non-intuitive UI.  (intuitivity being in the eye of the beholder
of course)  ;o)

I know many people who swear by mutt though, but I prefer the
nicer UI of PINE.  The only thing I hate about PINE is the
restricted source code license that makes it impossible to
contribute bugfixes effectively.  ;o(

TIA

----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're looking for Linux books, guides, and other documentation, visit 
the Linux Documentation Project homepage:  http://www.linuxdoc.org

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Mike Harrold]

> 
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mike Harrold wrote:
> 
> >> Those would all be your problems and I would suggest using a different account
> >> for mail then.
> >
> >Out of interest, how would that solve anything? So I use an ISP instead.
> >Then I have to download all my mail to home to read it. Talk about a
> >total waste of time.
> >
> >It's hard enough tracking my mail as it is, let alone having to have another
> >account just to handle a certain mailing list.
> 
> 2 words:  Your problem.  Many have suggested solutions, but
> you're playing the "I don't care, I want it my way and I don't
> care what you say" game, of which nobody is going to budge on,
> especially for one single person who is being unreasonable.

Errr, you're jumping to a few conclusions here. Thanks to some off-list
emails I have a solution in place that allows me to filter the list
quite adequately thank you.

Maybe you should read ALL the mails on a topic before responding (and
then having to respons 5 times)?

Regards,

/Mike

Re: lkml subject line

[Mohammad A. Haque]

Some people keep telling me that the way mutt handles headers is
'broken'. I've looked at it myself and don't see anything wrong and no
one explains their accusations. 

Anyone know anything about this or are they blowing hot air?

Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> I've played with both pine and mutt. mutt is by the better mail system IMHO,
> but pine has an easier learning curve.

-- 

=====================================================================
Mohammad A. Haque                              http://www.haque.net/ 
                                               mhaque@haque.net

  "Alcohol and calculus don't mix.             Project Lead
   Don't drink and derive." --Unknown          http://wm.themes.org/
                                               batmanppc@themes.org
=====================================================================

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Timur Tabi]

** Reply to message from "Mike A. Harris" <mharris@opensourceadvocate.org> on
Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:53:13 -0500 (EST)


> >I disagree, and while I may be in the minority on this list, I am certainly
> >not in the minority across the board, given that virtually every mailing list
> >I am subscribed to DOES prepend a tag to the subject line.
> 
> Which is retarded.  The subject line is for the subject.  Other
> headers exist for letting one know where they came from.

There's only one problem with this.  It assumes that for every mailing list you
are on, you will have a folder into which all such email is placed.

I subscribe to about 35 mailing lists, many of which have low traffic.  I don't
want to create a separate folder for each list.  Because most of these mailing
lists are on Yahoo Groups, I get a nice prefix to each subject line that tells
me the mailing list.  In can then filter all of these messages into one folder.
So instead of having to scan 20 folders, I only need to scan one.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are perfectly valid reasons to
include some text on the subject line to indicate the mailing list.  People who
feel this way may be in the majority, but then again, people who use Linux are
also in the majority.  Does that make them wrong or "retarded"?  No.


-- 
Timur Tabi - ttabi@interactivesi.com
Interactive Silicon - http://www.interactivesi.com

When replying to a mailing-list message, please direct the reply to the mailing list only.  Don't send another copy to me.

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Mike A. Harris]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Timur Tabi wrote:

>> Which is retarded.  The subject line is for the subject.  Other
>> headers exist for letting one know where they came from.
>
>There's only one problem with this.  It assumes that for every
>mailing list you are on, you will have a folder into which all
>such email is placed.

No it does not.  You are free to filter your mail however you
wish.  I put all the "caudium" lists into one folder for example.
These lists unfortunately put the stupid [caudium-blah] in the
subject, but I now can filter it out. If I want to look at just a
specific list, I can use PINE's search feature.

>I subscribe to about 35 mailing lists, many of which have low
>traffic.

I subscribe to 90+ lists, many of which are low traffic.

>I don't want to create a separate folder for each list.

Nor do I.

>Because most of these mailing lists are on Yahoo Groups, I get
>a nice prefix to each subject line that tells me the mailing
>list.

If that is important to you, and is the default for the list,
cool.


>In can then filter all of these messages into one folder. So
>instead of having to scan 20 folders, I only need to scan one.

You can do the same wether or not the subject contains the list
name.  It is very simple.


>The point I'm trying to make is that there are perfectly valid
>reasons to include some text on the subject line to indicate
>the mailing list.

I have yet to hear a single good reason.  Any reasons I've heard
any time in the last 7 years, have NOT been good reasons because
the reasons given always have another way of doing the EXACT same
thing, only without abusing the subject header.
Give me a good reason, and I'll give you an alternate way of
achieving the same thing - without messing up the subject.

>People who feel this way may be in the majority, but then
>again, people who use Linux are also in the majority.  Does
>that make them wrong or "retarded"?  No.

Read what I said again.  I never said anyone was retarded at all.
I said specifically:  "Which is retarded" refering to the process
of a list putting the name on the subject header.

What I am trying to say is that there are better ways of doing
the exact same things, without abusing the DEFINITIONS of a given
header.  To illustrate further, consider instead of using the
subject header if mailing lists put the list name in the DATE
header.

Date: [linux-kernel] Jan 12, 2000 ....

Pretty dumb eh?  And annoying.  And, you cant read the date in
index mode because all you see is:

    419 [linux-k Timur Tabi          (3,617) Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

Can't see the date because the dumb list puts the listname in the
date field!

No different for subject.  Here is an example:

  N  69 Jan 29 David Hedbor        (3,446) [caudium-commits] CVS: caudium/server


So when I look at the index, to scan which messages might be
interesting, by looking at the subject - which has the purpose of
summarizing the content/context of the message, I see 60%
bullshit, and 14 characters of subject.  In order to get any
useful meaning I must read every message just to see a useful
part of the subject.  Either that or use a 160 column video mode
instead of 80.  Why?  Because someone sets a list to put the damn
list name in the subject, because some user can't learn how to
use an email filter properly.

What is right:

1) not putting the thing in the subject from the list side
2) If an end user wants it in the subject, they can set up a mail
filter to PUT it in the subject.

:0 fwh
* ^Sender:.*owner-linux-kernel
| sed -e 's/^Subject: /Subject: [lkml]/'
:0 A:
lkml

The above filter should add [lkml] to your subject line.  So why
try to force it on everyone?

If the above procmail filter doesn't work (untested) let me know
and I will MAKE it work.  Windows users - tough luck - procmail
is open source - hire someone to port it...


----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike A. Harris  -  Linux advocate  -  Free Software advocate
          This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved.
  Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------



Windows 95(n) - 32-bit extensions and graphical shell for a 16-bit patch
to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor,
written by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. 

Re: lkml subject line

[Peter Samuelson]

  [Kai Henningsen]
> > There *is* a good way to do this, and it would be really nice if
> > vger could be taught to do it: add a List-Id: header
> > (draft-chandhok-listid-04.txt RFC-to-be, implemented in lots of
> > mailing list managers already).

[Eli Carter]
> Have you looked at the headers in an LK email?
> 
> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
> X-Mailing-List:         linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Should provide that List-Id you want.

You missed the point.  Certainly there are ways to identify LK mail.
Kai is saying that since 'List-Id:' is an IETF proposed standard,
Majordomo ought to use it.

Peter

Re: lkml subject line

[Matti Aarnio]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:11:25AM -0600, Peter Samuelson wrote:
> [Eli Carter]
> > Have you looked at the headers in an LK email?
> > 
> > Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org
> > X-Mailing-List:         linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Should provide that List-Id you want.
> 
> You missed the point.  Certainly there are ways to identify LK mail.
> Kai is saying that since 'List-Id:' is an IETF proposed standard,
> Majordomo ought to use it.

	There is no STANDARDS TRACK  RFC  saying anything about  List-Id:.
	There are only some individual's submission for a draft about it.
	It is also way overdue to expire (Expires September 23, 1999), and
	it has not been updated, nor advanced towards RFC.

	There are issues where me and DaveM are as obstinate as Linus,
	inserting lots of junky headers and munging others (e.g. Subject:)
	is a big no-no.    You can hash the issue all you want, but you
	can't convince me and DaveM.

	That  X-Mailing-List:  is actually a LOOP detection measure.
	http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/#s3-9

	I do have some plans which will change things at VGER, but those
	details are not ready for publishing yet.

> Peter

/Matti Aarnio

Re: Linux-kernel traffic statistics

[Matti Aarnio]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:50:11AM +0100, Rogier Wolff wrote:
> Matti Aarnio wrote:
> > 	That  X-Mailing-List:  is actually a LOOP detection measure.
> > 	http://vger.kernel.org/lkml/#s3-9
> 
> Hi Matti,
> 
> May I ask you some statistics?
> How many people are on lkml? 

	3027 subscribers

	2481 separate domains.

> How many mails does vger send out every day on average? (I know it
> gets help from exploaders around the globe, so it probably doesn't add
> up to nmessages*nsubscribers).

	It used to get help from fanout servers, none are in use anymore.
	Vger's load-average is around 0.0 - 0.1, nevertheless ;)

	Picking one address only present at linux-kernel, and counting
	some days backwards with logs (these include also retries,
	which often to the choses sample destination are 0):

/var/log/maillog.1
    232
/var/log/maillog.2
    259
/var/log/maillog.3
    139
/var/log/maillog.4
    102
/var/log/maillog.5
    148
/var/log/maillog.6
    216
/var/log/maillog.7
    240

	So, 100 to 260 messages per day during the past week of rotated
	logs.

	Total daily traffic counts of successfull sends are:
	(Each recipient address, not only domain, gets its own syslog line)

/var/log/maillog.1
 719616
/var/log/maillog.2
 812118
/var/log/maillog.3
 429046
/var/log/maillog.4
 316667
/var/log/maillog.5
 460353
/var/log/maillog.6
 669020
/var/log/maillog.7
 752678

	And the grand-totals of SMTP delivery attempts:

/var/log/maillog.1
 725514
/var/log/maillog.2
 821661
/var/log/maillog.3
 438685
/var/log/maillog.4
 322529
/var/log/maillog.5
 466632
/var/log/maillog.6
 676869
/var/log/maillog.7
 757461


	So, yesterday  linux-kernel traffic represented 97.6% of all
	traffic at VGER.  On day number 4 - also 97.5% ...

	The share of failed delivery attempts (retries, etc) hovers
	around 1-2 percent of all.
	(I did spot calculations, others may want to do some
	 spread-sheeting.)

> 			Roger. 
> -- 
> ** R.E.Wolff@BitWizard.nl ** http://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2137555 **

/Matti Aarnio

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Paul Jakma]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Mike A. Harris wrote:

> If the above procmail filter doesn't work (untested) let me know
> and I will MAKE it work.  Windows users - tough luck - procmail
> is open source - hire someone to port it...

and even windows users can filter properly. netscape allows you to add
custom headers to filter on. So absolutely no problems for netscape
users.

Those tied to outlook (as i was when i worked at compaq, until i found
an exchange server that did imap) also have no need to complain as i
managed to get it to filter l-k without problems -> use the outlook
"Ru1eZ W1z4Rd" to setup a filter to catch anything "sent from
linux-kernel@..." and then another filter to look for the l-k list
info text included at the bottom of every mail.  (this rule should be
last.)

hey presto, l-k neatly filtered away with Outlook.

if you use an MUA that can't do filtering, well then there's something
wrong with you....

--paulj

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Mike Harrold]

> 
> if you use an MUA that can't do filtering, well then there's something
> wrong with you....

I really don't believe there is any need for this kind of attitude.

/Mike

Re: [LK] Re: lkml subject line

[Chipzz]

> > If the above procmail filter doesn't work (untested) let me know
> > and I will MAKE it work.  Windows users - tough luck - procmail
> > is open source - hire someone to port it...

This procmail rule has caught all the mail, never slipped even one in the
last year:

:0
* ^Sender: linux-kernel-owner@.*\.kernel\.org
linux-kernel

Chipzz AKA
Jan Van Buggenhout
-- 

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                  UNIX isn't dead - It just smells funny
                            Chipzz@ULYSSIS.Org
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