public inbox for linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
@ 2003-01-04 10:57 Hell.Surfers
  2003-01-04 16:35 ` Mark Rutherford
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Hell.Surfers @ 2003-01-04 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: andrew, andre, ryan, linux-kernel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 446 bytes --]

you cant hear this, but if I was a troll, I woulda been happy, im not im off to write a decent license, that allows binaries and true free use, its not about the hardware, I wanna use a os thats just _legal_ so im gonna piss off and do that, oh and Im a elec engineer and physicist, bye.

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:42:37 +1300 	Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2178 bytes --]

From: Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz>
To: Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net, andre@linux-ide.org, ryan@michonline.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:42:37 +1300
Message-ID: <143640000.1041676957@localhost.localdomain>

Welcome to the kill file, Mr Troll.

For your edification, it *is* done.  Frequently.  Probably even in the 
settop box you're posting with.

--On Saturday, January 04, 2003 10:12:49 +0000 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> Sounds like a jumped up PIC chip, cant think why isnt done yet.
>
> Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].
>
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 02:07:27 -0800 (PST) Andre Hedrick
> <andre@linux-ide.org> wrote:


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
@ 2003-01-05  6:28 Hell.Surfers
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Hell.Surfers @ 2003-01-05  6:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: andrew, matan, linux-kernel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 274 bytes --]

I do not count GPL programs on top of a proprietary bios because the bios is firmware AND NOT TECHNICALLY SOFTWARE.

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Sun, 05 Jan 2003 08:43:02 +1300 	Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2878 bytes --]

From: Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz>
To: Matan Ziv-Av <matan@svgalib.org>
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Gauntlet Set NOW!
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 08:43:02 +1300
Message-ID: <570510000.1041709382@localhost.localdomain>

Which is all nice and good, but trying to do this in order to suspend a 
laptop is going to result in vastly more code, and you just can't get the 
documentation.

After all, the vendor gave you the code with the hardware in this case, so 
it's not as if you can possibly not have a license for it :-)

Andrew

--On Saturday, January 04, 2003 21:31:38 +0200 Matan Ziv-Av 
<matan@svgalib.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Andrew McGregor wrote:
>
>> Or else find that the NV3x has some stonking quick CPU embedded, and apps
>> talk GLX to it...
>>
>> Strange how noone objects to APM BIOS calls or ACPI.
>
> Actually, I object to this.
> On my via 686a, the advice on this list for getting the power saving was
> to use ACPI (after setting some bits in PCI config space). But lvcool
> program showed how to do this without proprietary programs, and I
> adapted it to bit of kernel code:
>

<snip>

>
> And I don't need to run any proprietary code during normal system run. I
> still need to use BIOS to boot and to poweroff the system, but
> that will be solved as well.
>
>
> --
> Matan Ziv-Av.                         matan@svgalib.org
>
>
>


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
@ 2003-01-04 10:38 Hell.Surfers
  2003-01-05 23:40 ` Florian Schmitt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Hell.Surfers @ 2003-01-04 10:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: andrew, andre, ryan, linux-kernel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 381 bytes --]

what war am I fighting? I decided that the battle is lost a long time ago, im showing the community its fate, eventual collapse from a unrealistic GPL that needs a decent funeral, sue NVidia and I collapse it, when I lose.

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:28:10 +1300 	Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3875 bytes --]

From: Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz>
To: Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org>, Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net
Cc: ryan@michonline.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:28:10 +1300
Message-ID: <142020000.1041676090@localhost.localdomain>

How about:

http://www.celoxica.com/
http://www.intel.com/design/network/products/npfamily/index.htm
http://www.hifn.com/products/Security.html

for some alternative ways to the end.

Dean, mate, give up.  This is a battle you will not win, and it would 
preserve the freedom you wish to have more if you did not fight. 
Unfortunately, the tension between IP, profit, and technological progress 
is complex.  Fortunately, there is room in the ecosystem for many views, 
and some of us are capable of holding different views for different 
projects.

I really respect Andre for what he's trying to do, and for what he has 
done.  I don't see any history which gives me any reason to respect you, 
and you're wearing out your default credit real fast.  My own history is 
more at the IETF than in Linux, but check out something called HIP and the 
manet working group for an example.  And www.indranet.co.nz too.  I only 
mention these because they're kind of obscure in the Linux context.

Andrew

--On Saturday, January 04, 2003 02:07:27 -0800 Andre Hedrick 
<andre@linux-ide.org> wrote:

>
> http://www.xilinx.com/ipcenter/catalog/logicore/docs/cam.pdf
> http://aggregate.org/ECard/
> http://www.utmc.com/cam/
> http://www.openskytech.com/ContentAddressableMemory.htm
> http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rhodson/cam/CamPage.html
> http://ipdps.eece.unm.edu/2000/raw/18000884.pdf
> http://www.infoworld.com/research/articles/01/05/15/01051524605.xml
> http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee371/handouts/DramCam92.pdf
> http://www.altera.com/support/software/eda_quartus2/glossary/def_cam.htm
> http://www.altera.com/literature/po/apex_cam_ss.pdf
> http://www.esscirc.org/papers-96/26.pdf
>
> The list is long, the histroy is there.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:
>
>> moving the whole thing into firmware? Interesting, got _any_ meat on the
>> bone?
>>
>> Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].
>>
>> On 	Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0800 (PST) 	Andre Hedrick
>> <andre@linux-ide.org> wrote:
>>
>
> Andre Hedrick
> LAD Storage Consulting Group
>
>


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
@ 2003-01-04 10:12 Hell.Surfers
  2003-01-04 10:42 ` Andrew McGregor
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Hell.Surfers @ 2003-01-04 10:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: andre, andrew, ryan, linux-kernel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 221 bytes --]

Sounds like a jumped up PIC chip, cant think why isnt done yet.

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 02:07:27 -0800 (PST) Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1678 bytes --]

From: Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org>
To: Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net
Cc: andrew@indranet.co.nz, ryan@michonline.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 02:07:27 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10301040201590.421-100000@master.linux-ide.org>


http://www.xilinx.com/ipcenter/catalog/logicore/docs/cam.pdf
http://aggregate.org/ECard/
http://www.utmc.com/cam/
http://www.openskytech.com/ContentAddressableMemory.htm
http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~rhodson/cam/CamPage.html
http://ipdps.eece.unm.edu/2000/raw/18000884.pdf
http://www.infoworld.com/research/articles/01/05/15/01051524605.xml
http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee371/handouts/DramCam92.pdf
http://www.altera.com/support/software/eda_quartus2/glossary/def_cam.htm
http://www.altera.com/literature/po/apex_cam_ss.pdf
http://www.esscirc.org/papers-96/26.pdf

The list is long, the histroy is there.



On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 Hell.Surfers@cwctv.net wrote:

> moving the whole thing into firmware? Interesting, got _any_ meat on the bone?
> 
> Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].
> 
> On 	Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0800 (PST) 	Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org> wrote:
> 

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* RE: Gauntlet Set NOW!
@ 2003-01-04  9:55 Hell.Surfers
  2003-01-04 10:07 ` Andre Hedrick
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Hell.Surfers @ 2003-01-04  9:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: andre, andrew, ryan, linux-kernel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 238 bytes --]

moving the whole thing into firmware? Interesting, got _any_ meat on the bone?

Dean McEwan, If the drugs don't work, [sarcasm] take more...[/sarcasm].

On 	Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0800 (PST) 	Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org> wrote:

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 6170 bytes --]

From: Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org>
To: Andrew McGregor <andrew@indranet.co.nz>
Cc: Ryan Anderson <ryan@michonline.com>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Gauntlet Set NOW!
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10301040135420.421-100000@master.linux-ide.org>


There is a solution out there and as soon as I can verify it works,
gameover for anyone thinking they will get access to soft IP again by
banging a dead drum.

CAM, Content Addressable Memory on a card.

Usage will be to stuff any binary soft code now reclassified as "firmware"
into a piece of hardware.  Set the addressable memory hooks for what is
now called the open source wrapper for binary objects, and game is over.

There is hardware with a software core which is totally embedded for all
practical purposes.  Use your existing GPL wrapper and call it you new
driver!  Funny how people come up with ways to thwart the sticky fingers
to rip off IP and hard work.  Lets see how GPL goes to get soft IP locked
into hardware.

Force rules and license into places they do not belong, and evolution
happens to push back and impose the boundaries of IP.

Surprised ?  Not me.

Cheers,

Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group


On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Andrew McGregor wrote:

> I am aware that there was little confirmation from other developers (so far 
> as I remember, there was some, plus a few dissenting views).
> 
> I was *only* talking about Linus' position, which I admit was being 
> selective in that context.
> 
> My real point was this:  It appears to me that NVIDIA have gone as far as 
> they can in releasing the code to their driver.  It has certainly been my 
> own policy to do so with various code, and the result was not GPL because 
> of legal constraints.
> 
> Punishing a company who have, with goodwill, opened up their code as far as 
> they were allowed by preexisting agreements for license issues is not a 
> smart move, and will only hurt the free software community in the long run.
> 
> And to those who say 'well, just release the specs':  Quite likely NVIDIA 
> did not design all the subsystems of their chips, but instead bought 'IP 
> block' licenses from someone else.  The license NVIDIA have access to those 
> under probably will not allow that release, whether NVIDIA would like to 
> release that information or not.
> 
> Effectively, the binary part of the driver can be viewed as part of the 
> hardware, just as much as it can be viewed as part of the kernel.  It is 
> constrained in hardware-like ways, not much like software at all.
> 
> My view, for what it's worth, is that if binary modules are not allowed by 
> the kernel being GPL, then it is worth going to some trouble to allow 
> binary hardware drivers by some other mechanism than a module, since it is 
> effectively impossible to change the license on the kernel now, as you 
> correctly point out.  Even if they want to, many hardware vendors will not 
> be able to release full specifications or GPL code for quite some time, and 
> it is better to allow those that are motivated to to open up as much as 
> they can, than to require only that hardware for which full information or 
> GPL-able code is available to be used with Linux.  And saying that the 
> vendor then has to assume all the maintenance trouble keeps the pressure on 
> them to evolve toward openness.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> --On Saturday, January 04, 2003 02:12:09 -0500 Ryan Anderson 
> <ryan@michonline.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jan 04, 2003 at 12:56:53PM +1300, Andrew McGregor wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> Linus has made it quite clear in the past that his position on binary
> >> modules is that they are explicitly allowed, but that the maintainers of
> >> such a thing 'get everything they deserve' in terms of maintenance
> >> hassle.
> >
> > I *really* think you need to do some searches on this list to verify
> > this statement.
> >
> > Let me summarize what I remember from past discussions of this nature.
> >
> > Linus put his code under the GPL.  Contributions came in, under the same
> > license.  At some point, the first binary only module showed up.  When
> > asked about the legality, Linus said something to the effect of, "I
> > think they're ok."
> >
> > Note the lack of clarification from the other (miriad) copyright
> > holders?
> >
> > In summary - If you want to write binary only modules, you need to talk
> > to a lawyer that understands the issues involved.  "Linus said they were
> > ok" doesn't even begin to encompass the number of copyright holders
> > involved.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Ryan Anderson
> >   sometimes Pug Majere
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> 

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?
@ 2003-01-03 20:31 Richard Stallman
  2003-01-03 23:01 ` Gauntlet Set NOW! Andre Hedrick
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2003-01-03 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: andre; +Cc: mark, billh, paul, riel, Hell.Surfers, linux-kernel

    What I see is a lot of people wait for new technology to be supported,
    yet do nothing to enable the ones who have access and are willing to take
    the risks of dealing with the vendors who are paranoid.

Yes, that is a shame.  How can we change that?  We have to spread the
word through our community that encouraging and rewarding Nvidia is
self-destructive until they cooperate with our freedom.

    What if they decide to thumb the nose at you?

I believe that is what they are doing now.  (Please correct me
if I'm wrong--I would be glad to hear it.)

    What if they decide to withdraw their drivers?

We would not lose any free software that way, and it might increase
the impetus for people to work improving on the free drivers.  In the
long run, this would be for the best.

    If people want to use "non-free drivers", they choose to execute the
    freedom to do so.  Now, what is clearly stated in your text is, FREEDOM
    means the vendor of the "non-free drivers" has NONE!

Making a program non-free is denying other people the freedom to
study, change and/or redistribute it.  It is an act of domination.  To
speak of the "freedom" to dominate others is to stretch the concept of
freedom into a Russell paradox.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-01-09 22:57 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 32+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2003-01-04 10:57 Gauntlet Set NOW! Hell.Surfers
2003-01-04 16:35 ` Mark Rutherford
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-01-05  6:28 Hell.Surfers
2003-01-04 10:38 Hell.Surfers
2003-01-05 23:40 ` Florian Schmitt
2003-01-04 10:12 Hell.Surfers
2003-01-04 10:42 ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04  9:55 Hell.Surfers
2003-01-04 10:07 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-04 10:28   ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-03 20:31 Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers? Richard Stallman
2003-01-03 23:01 ` Gauntlet Set NOW! Andre Hedrick
2003-01-03 23:56   ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04  7:12     ` Ryan Anderson
2003-01-04  9:14       ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04  9:45         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-04 10:01           ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-04 19:31             ` Matan Ziv-Av
2003-01-04 19:43               ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-06 10:56             ` Helge Hafting
2003-01-04 23:44     ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-05  1:22       ` Rik van Riel
2003-01-05  5:33         ` Milosz Tanski
2003-01-05  5:12       ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-05  5:31         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-05 10:47           ` Andrew McGregor
2003-01-05 15:29             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-09  7:28   ` Richard Stallman
2003-01-09  7:41     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-01-09  7:50     ` Jeff Garzik
2003-01-09  8:08     ` Andrew Morton
2003-01-09  8:57       ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2003-01-09 23:06       ` Oliver Xymoron

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox