Re: Why is Nvidia given GPL'd code to use in closed source drivers?

[Andrew Walrond <andrew@walrond.org>]

I am in almost complete agreement with you regarding the benefits of 
free drivers.

But my point has evolved from this argument over nvidia and I extended 
the principles to my business to see where it would lead.

I don't see rms saying "Non free software is bad, except games"

Andrew

Helge Hafting wrote:
> Andrew Walrond wrote:
> 
>>Helge Hafting wrote:
>>
>>>Andrew Walrond wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Am I a bad person charging for my work?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>Goodie!
>>
>>
>>>>Really - I want to understand so I too can join this merry band of happy
>>>>people giving everything away for free!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nobody give everything away from free.  Free software, in particular,
>>>runs
>>>on boxes that cost money.  And people sell service and support.
>>>
>>
>>But I don't sell service, or support. I sell *software*
>>Am I bad again ?
> 
> No - there's nothing wrong in selling software.  I buy it if I want
> it, or don't if I don't think it is worth the money.
> 
> Of course the same apply to nvidia - I choose not to buy their hardware
> _because_ of their secrecy.  Many aren't that lucky, you can't usually
> dictate the components of a work machine.
> 
> 
>>>The problem with nvidia isn't that they charge money.  The problem
>>>is that their product comes with strange restrictions.
>>>
>>
>>Ah - I see
>>
>>
>>>The problems are:
>>>1) The drivers are closed-source, so we can't fix the bugs.  (Yes,
>>>   there are bugs, and no, nvidia don't fix them immediately.  So
>>>   it'd be nice for us who understand C to fix this ourselves.
>>>   Releasing the code don't won't cost nvidia because they aren't
>>>   making money on it.  They might actually sell _more_ hardware
>>>   if they released the code.  So keeping it secret don't make sense
>>>   even from a extreme greediness viewpoint.  Such a driver can't
>>>   be made to work with a competing product either with a few tweaks.
>>>
>>
>>Oh. But I don't give you the source code to my game. Crikey - How are
>>going to debug it if it breaks??? Am I bad again ?
>>
> 
> You can't compare your games to nvidia drivers.  Your game might have
> a problem, but that is a problem with the game only.  Trouble
> with video drivers means you can't use the computer properly
> at all.  
> 
> Most people don't bother debugging a video game - if it is crap, they
> don't play it.  Because they don't need it.  It is just a fun
> thing _if_ it works.  You need working video hardware though - under
> all circumstances.
> 
> 
>>>2) Still, they _may_ have reasons not to release the code, perhaps
>>>   a patended algorithm or some such.  They could at least release the
>>>   specs for their card, so a free driver could be written from scratch.
>>>   But they don't do that either - strange.  Some manufacturers _do_
>>>   this, with no ill effects.  They get a slightly bigger market because
>>>   their equipment is ok with the free software world.
>>>
>>
>>Gosh, they are naughty aren't they. But I can't release the source
>>either, because little jonnie and his mates will all copy it and I'll go
>>bust and I'll lose my house and my wife will leave me. Oh what a dilema!
>>Am I a bad man ?
> 
> 
> I repeat - the two cases aren't comparable.  People need fixable drivers
> and
> docs so their screen will work under all circumstances - including
> future changes in the os.  
> 
> A game isn't like that at all. Nothing depends on it other than the game
> itself.
> Particularly, no expensive hardware depends on it.
>  
> 
>>>This is very much like selling cars were the gas tank is locked, and
>>>you don't have the key.  The gas stations have keys, but only
>>>some of them.  So you can't fill anywhere.
>>>Or a tv that don't work on thursdays. Silly in the extreme,
>>>annoying for the user and no benefit for the manufacturer.
>>>
>>>Helge Hafting
>>>
>>
>>Thanks for explaining that.
>>
>>I'm gonna hand myself in. I can hardly believe how bad I am. BAD Andrew.
>>Bad bad bad!
>>
>>[Tongue so firmly in cheek that it hurts ;) Sorry Helge - I know you
>>mean well!]
> 
> 
> Try to understand this:  the problems with nvidia does not apply to your
> gaming business.  Both of you sell some closed-source software, that
> don't
> make you equal at all though.  In your case the software game is the
> product.
> In nvidia's case the software is merely something necessary to make the
> hardware product work.
> 
> Good open-source drivers is a huge win for us and a small win for
> nvidia,
> they have nothing to loose here.  Your situation is different, open
> source
> might make the game impossible to sell, as you say.  Most people
> understand
> and accept that.
> 
> Helge Hafting
>