Server down?

Server down?

[yiding_wang]

For some reason, I don't receive mail send to linux kernel anymore.  Is that a server problem or I need to do the subscribe again.  It happened fron yesterday.

Eddie

Re: Server down?

[John Bradford]

> For some reason, I don't receive mail send to linux kernel anymore.
> Is that a server problem or I need to do the subscribe again.  It
> happened fron yesterday.

The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.

John.

Re: Server down?

[David S. Miller]

On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 11:02, John Bradford wrote:
> The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.

This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.

You should INSTEAD, send a mail to postmaster@vger.kernel.org
asking why you were removed.

People who continually keep resubscribing eventually get black
listed.  This means DO NOT DO IT.  Ask why you are being removed
so that the problems at your site can be fixed.

When an address bounces, it puts a major burdon on both vger and
the postmasters here.

Re: Server down?

[John Bradford]

> > The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.
> 
> This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.

No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
troubled as a first resort.

Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.

The relevant section of the FAQ is:

Section 3, subsection 14

"I am not getting any mail anymore from the list!  Is it down or
what?"

Note that there is NO problem with any of the original poster's
mailservers, they are all accessible, so it is not a case of mail
getting bounced from some of them.

The FAQ actually says, "Just resubscribe.  Majordomo will get you a
nice note saying you're still subscribed if suddenly everybody went
dumb".

It also says, "Asking for help from postmaster@vger.kernel.org could
expedite the issue.", but common sense suggests that it's best to try
re-subscribing at least once before contacting the already overworked
postmasters.

> You should INSTEAD, send a mail to postmaster@vger.kernel.org
> asking why you were removed.

Only if you have persistant problems.

> People who continually keep resubscribing eventually get black
> listed.  This means DO NOT DO IT.  Ask why you are being removed
> so that the problems at your site can be fixed.
> 
> When an address bounces, it puts a major burdon on both vger and
> the postmasters here.

Ask for the FAQ to be updated if it is wrong.

John.

Re: Server down?

[Nuno Monteiro]

On 24.01.03 10:42 John Bradford wrote:
>> > The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.
>> 
>> This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.
> 
> No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
> do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
> troubled as a first resort.
> 
> Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
> mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
> stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.
> 

[snip snip snip]


That is all fine and dandy, but you do realize that Dave is one of the 
postmasters (along with Matti Aarnio), dont you? I believe he is a little 
more qualified than you to tell users what to do. Who's looking stupid 
and shouting now?


Regards,

	Nuno

Re: Server down?

[John Bradford]

> >> > The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.
> >> 
> >> This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.
> > 
> > No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
> > do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
> > troubled as a first resort.
> > 
> > Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
> > mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
> > stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.
> > 
> 
> [snip snip snip]
> 
> 
> That is all fine and dandy, but you do realize that Dave is one of the 
> postmasters (along with Matti Aarnio), dont you?

Yes.

> I believe he is a little more qualified than you to tell users what
> to do.

About 50% of the traffic on this mailing list is *way* off-topic, and
nothing is done about it.

I post a perfectly on-topic, sensible suggestion, and I am rudely
flamed for it.

> Who's looking stupid and shouting now?

Err, not me.

John.

[OT] Re: Server down?

[Nuno Monteiro]

On 24.01.03 15:18 John Bradford wrote:

[more snippage]
>> 
>> 
>> That is all fine and dandy, but you do realize that Dave is one of the
>> postmasters (along with Matti Aarnio), dont you?
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> I believe he is a little more qualified than you to tell users what
>> to do.
> 
> About 50% of the traffic on this mailing list is *way* off-topic, and
> nothing is done about it.
> 


Yes, and...? What has that got to do with anything? Guess what, you just 
contributed to that yourself -- the original point was about someone 
being unsubscribed. Why was the amount of offtopic emails brought into 
the equation?

But, while we're on that, what do you propose to do then? Go up to the 
house of everyone who posted offtopic here and restrain them so they wont 
post anymore? Well, let me introduce you to two simple concepts. One, 
freedom of speech. Two, freedom to ignore the freedom of speech. If you 
dont like what you read, /dev/null it. C'mon, lighten up. Life's much too 
important to be taken seriously ;) But dont expect to realistically 
enforce 'ontopicness' (if that is a word, anyway) on a list this large. 
It just doesnt work, period. There are too many RMS' around who have the 
listening ability of a brick wall for that to ever work. You should, 
however, be very thankful to Dave and Matti for managing the list so you 
can sit confortably and scream bloody murder from rooftops. You just have 
no idea of how much work goes behind the scenes, and what lengths they go 
so your daily fix of LKML reaches your mailbox, do you?

Anyhow, I dont think the signal to noise ratio has shifted significantly, 
for the most part. There are the occasional spikes now and again, and 
specifically as of late with all the raving and ranting about GNU/ and 
akin sillyness, but overall, I dont really think its any better or any 
worse than it has ever been. Maybe I'm just wrong, though.

For my part, anyway, thanks David, thanks Matti. You do a superb job and 
I (and certainlly thousands others) appreciate it very  much.


> I post a perfectly on-topic, sensible suggestion, and I am rudely
> flamed for it.
> 

You werent flamed, or your definitions of "being flamed" and "rudely" are 
very different than mine. David just stepped up to his role of postmaster 
and pointed out that what you suggested was actually wrong, and 
procceeded to explain what a user should do, should he ever get bounced 
off the list. Dont see where the flames come into the equation, frankly. 
Then again, you only thought it was sensible. As Dave pointed out, it 
wasnt so sensible afterall. So I see why you thought you were being 
flamed. No one likes to be proven wrong before an audience of tens of 
thousands.


>> Who's looking stupid and shouting now?
> 
> Err, not me.

Thats where we disagree. From this end, and all vectors considered, it 
certainly looks like you.

Please dont think I'm pouring petrol into the (already fiercely) burning 
fire. I have no intention or desire whatsoever to start yet another 
pointless-flame-fest-du-jour. Lets just agree that we disagree and leave 
it be, pretty please? :)

Regards,


	Nuno

Re: Server down?

[Richard B. Tilley (Brad)]

Have you guys ever read "The Sound and the Fury"?

On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 10:03, Nuno Monteiro wrote:
> On 24.01.03 10:42 John Bradford wrote:
> >> > The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.
> >> 
> >> This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.
> > 
> > No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
> > do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
> > troubled as a first resort.
> > 
> > Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
> > mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
> > stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.
> > 
> 
> [snip snip snip]
> 
> 
> That is all fine and dandy, but you do realize that Dave is one of the 
> postmasters (along with Matti Aarnio), dont you? I believe he is a little 
> more qualified than you to tell users what to do. Who's looking stupid 
> and shouting now?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 	Nuno
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Server down?

[David S. Miller]

   From: John Bradford <john@grabjohn.com>
   Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:42:58 +0000 (GMT)

   > This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.
   
   No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
   do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
   troubled as a first resort.
   
   Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
   mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
   stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.

I am one of the postmasters at vger.  Maybe you don't realize
that.

Re: Server down?

[Eli Carter]

David S. Miller wrote:
>    From: John Bradford <john@grabjohn.com>
>    Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:42:58 +0000 (GMT)
> 
>    > This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.
>    
>    No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
>    do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
>    troubled as a first resort.
>    
>    Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
>    mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
>    stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.
> 
> I am one of the postmasters at vger.  Maybe you don't realize
> that.

David,

Could you update the FAQ please?  I would have checked 
http://vger.kernel.org/mxverify.html and then resubscribed, based on the 
FAQ. ( http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s3-14 )

*dives for cover*

Eli
--------------------. "If it ain't broke now,
Eli Carter           \                  it will be soon." -- crypto-gram
eli.carter(a)inet.com `-------------------------------------------------

Re: Server down?

[John Bradford]

> >    > This is absolutely NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.
> >    
> >    No, infact what you are suggesting is absolutely not what you should
> >    do - the postmasters are already overworked, and don't need to be
> >    troubled as a first resort.
> >    
> >    Please, read the FAQ.  If you wish to embarrase yourself on this
> >    mailing list, that is up to you, but please do not make me look
> >    stupid, AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT YOUR INCORRECT ADVICE.
> > 
> > I am one of the postmasters at vger.  Maybe you don't realize
> > that.
> 
> David,
> 
> Could you update the FAQ please?  I would have checked 
> http://vger.kernel.org/mxverify.html and then resubscribed, based on the 
> FAQ. ( http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s3-14 )

To be fair, there are quite a few areas where the FAQ recommendations
have got a bit out of sync with reality - if nobody else wants to do
it, I'm willing to go through and produce a set of diffs to send on to
Richard, (the FAQ maintainer), for final approval.

> *dives for cover*

Oh no!  Just when you thought the flamewar had stopped...  It starts
again! :-)

John.

Re: Server down?

[David S. Miller]

   From: Eli Carter <eli.carter@inet.com>
   Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:17:24 -0600
   
   Could you update the FAQ please?

It definitely needs updating, I'd like to thank everyone
for pointing this out.

Re: Server down?

[Pete Zaitcev]

> David,
> 
> Could you update the FAQ please?  I would have checked 
> http://vger.kernel.org/mxverify.html and then resubscribed, based on the 
> FAQ. ( http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s3-14 )

Last time I checked, Richard Gooch was the FAQ maintainer.
Try as he might, Dave cannot update it :)

-- Pete

Re: Server down?

[Matti Aarnio]

On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 07:02:35PM +0000, John Bradford wrote:
> > For some reason, I don't receive mail send to linux kernel anymore.
> > Is that a server problem or I need to do the subscribe again.  It
> > happened fron yesterday.
> 
> The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.

Lets see what logs tell:

    @grabjohn.com linux-kernel relaying denied
  yiding_wang@agilent.com linux-kernel user unknown

Agilent had front-end system loosing its database/mind temporarily
(but 1 hour "temporary" is 10-60 bounces depending on the hour...)

Cases of "relaying denied" (wording varies) are fairly easy to understand.
Cases where systems have temporary insanities are most difficult to analyze...

> John.

/Matti Aarnio

Re: Server down?

[John Bradford]

> > > For some reason, I don't receive mail send to linux kernel anymore.
> > > Is that a server problem or I need to do the subscribe again.  It
> > > happened fron yesterday.
> > 
> > The list server probably de-subscribed you.  Try re-subscribing.
> 
> Lets see what logs tell:
> 
>     @grabjohn.com linux-kernel relaying denied
>   yiding_wang@agilent.com linux-kernel user unknown
> 
> Agilent had front-end system loosing its database/mind temporarily
> (but 1 hour "temporary" is 10-60 bounces depending on the hour...)
> 
> Cases of "relaying denied" (wording varies) are fairly easy to understand.
> Cases where systems have temporary insanities are most difficult to analyze...

I *know* that one of my backup mailers is incorrectly configured, but
that machine is not under my direct control, and I have asked for it
to be re-configured.  What else can I do?

John.

Re: Server down?

[Matti Aarnio]

On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 10:29:35AM +0000, John Bradford wrote:
> > Lets see what logs tell:
> > 
> >     @grabjohn.com linux-kernel relaying denied
> > 
> > Cases of "relaying denied" (wording varies) are fairly easy to understand.
> 
> I *know* that one of my backup mailers is incorrectly configured, but
> that machine is not under my direct control, and I have asked for it
> to be re-configured.  What else can I do?

Change your MX dataset to omit the incorrectly configured system ?

If you can't control your DNS MX sets either, well, at least you can
read the lists via various archives, and can always post to the list
independent of subscription status.

> John.

/Matti Aarnio

Re: Server down?

[John Bradford]

> > > Lets see what logs tell:
> > > 
> > >     @grabjohn.com linux-kernel relaying denied
> > > 
> > > Cases of "relaying denied" (wording varies) are fairly easy to understand.
> > 
> > I *know* that one of my backup mailers is incorrectly configured, but
> > that machine is not under my direct control, and I have asked for it
> > to be re-configured.  What else can I do?
> 
> Change your MX dataset to omit the incorrectly configured system ?
> 
> If you can't control your DNS MX sets either, well, at least you can
> read the lists via various archives, and can always post to the list
> independent of subscription status.

Oh, I'm subscribed to the list as john@bradfords.org.uk, which I have
full control over - there shouldn't be bounces to that address.

You're right, though, to be honest the usa-relay is rather unncessary
anyway - the two other servers provide enough redundancy.  I'll remove
it.

John.