From: Timothy Miller <miller@techsource.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>
Cc: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
Ross Vandegrift <ross@willow.seitz.com>,
Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!]
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:06:10 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <3EAEBF12.3090102@techsource.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 20030427232835.GM23068@work.bitmover.com
Larry McVoy wrote:
>On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:05:15PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
>
>
>>Your economic model is flawed because if something needs doing enough
>>someone will pay to do it. The moment the value exceeds the cost it
>>should happen.
>>
>>
>
>Explain to me how BK would have happened under your (non flawed) model.
>Before we gave it to you, you had no idea how to do it. It cost
>millions to get it to the point that you could see that it was valuable
>by using it.
>
>If I had said "Hey, Red Hat, how about you give me $8M so I can go
>build you the perfect SCM tool" you would have laughed your ass off.
>As would any other company, the amount of money it takes to do something
>new is not a working amount for a single customer.
>
>Under your model, only incremental change will occur, no customer is
>ever going to fund the large amounts required for truly new work.
>
>
Many open source projects start out as entirely new ideas, but
admittedly, they then taken on an entirely evolutionary (rather than
revolutionary) approach to improvement afterwards. The theoretical
advantage is that global revolutionary change can occur through fast
enough evolution. Is Linux 2.5.68 revolutionarily better than Linux
1.2? I'd say so, but it got there through evolutionary, incremental change.
Keep in mind that evolution itself is driven by lots of
mini-revolutions. So when Ingo developed his O(1) scheduler, he
completely replaced the existing one. Sure he borrowed ideas, but that
always happens. The point is that the old one was ripped out and a new
one was inserted. An incremental change for Linux was caused by a
revolutionary change to the process scheduler.
The idea of an O(1) scheduler may not be revolutionary in the grand
scheme of all of computer science. But that doesn't make it any less
important to us or any less useful to the world.
Sometimes, the evolution just doesn't happen fast enough. GNOME and KDE
will both get there... eventually. But they're not fast enough to make
Linux viable yet on the desktop. I can't begin to tell you how much
effort it's taken for me to get Blue Curve and other GNOME-oriented or
Red Hat-oriented (I know the difference) stuff with RH9 to behave the
way I want it to. Actually, it still doesn't.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-04-29 17:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 269+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2003-04-24 3:59 Flame Linus to a crisp! Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 4:40 ` Joel Jaeggli
2003-04-24 4:43 ` Greg KH
2003-04-24 4:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 5:02 ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 5:39 ` viro
2003-04-24 5:56 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-24 8:46 ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-24 9:46 ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 10:54 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2003-04-25 0:07 ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 4:54 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-24 5:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 13:08 ` Shawn
2003-04-24 20:12 ` Kenneth Johansson
2003-04-24 17:32 ` Andreas Boman
2003-04-24 17:41 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24 19:39 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-26 17:05 ` Riley Williams
2003-04-24 5:02 ` Mark J Roberts
2003-04-24 5:13 ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 5:15 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24 5:43 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 6:15 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24 7:44 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 8:03 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25 1:16 ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-25 1:35 ` Stan Bubrouski
2003-04-24 8:16 ` John Bradford
2003-04-24 8:31 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 8:59 ` John Bradford
2003-04-24 8:50 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 14:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 15:00 ` Jeff Garzik
2003-04-24 19:03 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 19:32 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 20:19 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 20:35 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:39 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24 21:02 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 18:58 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 21:08 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:37 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 21:30 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:38 ` John Bradford
2003-04-25 3:20 ` Shawn
2003-04-25 5:47 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-25 7:02 ` John Bradford
2003-04-25 8:05 ` Simple x86 Simulator (was: Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!) Steven Augart
2003-04-25 15:38 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-25 16:10 ` John Bradford
2003-04-25 11:44 ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-25 8:52 ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Helge Hafting
2003-04-25 14:03 ` Mike Dresser
2003-04-24 21:42 ` Russell King
2003-04-25 6:08 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25 11:46 ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-24 10:57 ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-24 22:51 ` Adrian Bunk
2003-04-24 7:55 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 8:37 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24 8:59 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 12:52 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24 15:37 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 18:35 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-24 20:46 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 20:50 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:03 ` Chris Adams
2003-04-24 22:29 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 22:41 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:54 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25 0:26 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:41 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 14:21 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 16:13 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-04-27 16:59 ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 17:04 ` Ben Collins
2003-04-27 17:34 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 18:41 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-27 17:35 ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 17:49 ` Mirar
2003-04-27 23:15 ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-04-27 17:59 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 21:28 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 1:48 ` rmoser
2003-04-28 9:05 ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-28 10:44 ` The X-Window System John Bradford
2003-04-28 14:37 ` Herman Oosthuysen
2003-04-28 16:28 ` uaca
2003-05-06 3:55 ` Miles Bader
2003-04-27 18:07 ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-27 18:35 ` Chris Adams
2003-04-27 18:50 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 19:11 ` Davide Libenzi
2003-04-27 20:13 ` Frank van Maarseveen
2003-04-27 20:34 ` walt
2003-04-27 21:26 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:07 ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-27 22:32 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 22:05 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:28 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 0:06 ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-28 11:03 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 18:06 ` Timothy Miller [this message]
2003-04-28 9:06 ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-28 14:55 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 20:04 ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-28 20:18 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 20:22 ` Chris Adams
2003-04-28 21:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 21:40 ` Roman Zippel
2003-04-28 22:13 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 22:16 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 0:09 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 4:07 ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-29 5:08 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 16:40 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 21:45 ` Helge Hafting
2003-04-30 9:58 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 15:06 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 5:59 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-04-29 16:41 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 14:35 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:34 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:51 ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 23:53 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 0:00 ` rmoser
[not found] ` <20030428001001.GP23068@work.bitmover.com>
2003-04-28 0:19 ` rmoser
2003-04-28 0:37 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 0:40 ` rmoser
2003-04-28 11:38 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-29 14:21 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:27 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-29 19:56 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 20:35 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-30 8:39 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 18:47 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-27 18:56 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 19:20 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-27 21:30 ` Jon Portnoy
2003-04-27 21:32 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:36 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 21:56 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:08 ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 22:16 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:35 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:07 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-28 0:36 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-28 9:57 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-06 15:58 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 14:44 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-07 14:28 ` Alan Cox
2003-05-07 21:40 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 22:16 ` Alan Cox
2003-05-08 0:33 ` Kurt Wall
2003-04-28 11:26 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-05-06 15:59 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-04-28 22:50 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:46 ` Jeffrey Souza
2003-04-29 15:16 ` venom
2003-04-30 9:35 ` Jamie Lokier
[not found] ` <20030427171007$6d24@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-04-27 20:08 ` Why DRM exists Florian Weimer
2003-04-24 19:23 ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 19:50 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24 8:57 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-04-24 9:19 ` Russell King
2003-04-24 11:38 ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 17:46 ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 14:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 12:39 ` Mark Mielke
2003-04-24 15:53 ` Elladan
2003-04-24 18:31 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 23:15 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25 11:28 ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-27 1:31 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 1:59 ` David Wagner
2003-04-25 14:37 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-25 15:17 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-25 17:37 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-26 21:59 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-26 13:00 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-26 18:41 ` viro
2003-04-26 18:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-28 14:20 ` John Stoffel
2003-04-26 19:23 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 10:35 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-28 12:12 ` Jörn Engel
2003-04-28 14:01 ` Zack Gilburd
2003-04-28 14:30 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:21 ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-26 23:34 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 3:59 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 20:16 ` Nils Holland
2003-04-25 4:46 ` My take on Trusted Computing and DRM Joseph Pingenot
[not found] <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304232012400.19176-100000@home.transmeta.co m>
2003-04-27 10:52 ` Houston, I think we have a problem Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 14:41 ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:25 ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:29 ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:41 ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:54 ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28 5:17 ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28 6:15 ` Jan Harkes
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-04-27 17:59 Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] James Bottomley
2003-04-29 14:01 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 16:39 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 17:38 ` James Bottomley
2003-04-30 9:43 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-29 23:40 ` Robert White
2003-04-30 1:34 ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-30 10:03 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 20:37 ` Robert White
2003-04-30 20:59 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 9:03 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-05-01 19:49 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 20:27 ` Robert White
2003-05-01 23:08 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 0:54 ` Robert White
2003-05-02 3:10 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 3:34 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 13:43 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 20:48 ` David Schwartz
2003-04-30 13:11 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 13:59 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 14:49 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 16:01 ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-30 16:53 ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-30 17:21 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 17:45 ` Jim Penny
2003-04-30 19:09 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-30 19:58 ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-01 2:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 3:39 ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-09 11:04 ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-09 23:17 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 20:00 ` Dax Kelson
2003-05-01 11:44 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-02 19:00 ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-05-02 23:10 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-03 19:25 ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-06 11:25 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-06 12:13 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-09 10:59 ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-01 12:09 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 18:01 ` Gerhard Mack
2003-04-30 14:52 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 15:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:55 ` Jeff Randall
2003-05-01 12:43 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 18:19 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:20 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:41 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:53 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:55 ` viro
2003-04-30 20:09 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 18:58 ` Edgar Toernig
2003-04-30 22:43 ` Paul Mackerras
2003-05-01 1:03 ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 12:27 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 13:11 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-05-01 17:40 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-30 15:53 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 16:21 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 18:39 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 3:16 Tom Lord
2003-05-01 19:06 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 23:40 Chuck Ebbert
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