* RE: POSSIVEL SPAM-- Re: Binary-only firmware covered by the GPL?
2004-03-30 17:44 ` POSSIVEL SPAM-- Re: Binary-only firmware covered by the GPL? Humberto Massa
@ 2004-03-30 23:48 ` Guy
2004-03-31 5:47 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
1 sibling, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Guy @ 2004-03-30 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Humberto Massa', debian-devel
Cc: debian-legal, linux-kernel, linux-scsi
The binary data stored in the .c source file is not the preferred source!
If someone really needed to make a change under the current conditions, they
would disassemble the binary blob and create a .??? source file. Make the
change, and then create a new binary blob. At that point the .??? source
file could be considered the preferred source file. Also, if the .c file
needs to be maintained, it would be generated from the binary blob. So, the
.c file would be derived from something else, it would not be modified by an
editor.
I am not saying that someone would not be able to edit the .c file directly.
Sure some geek just to prove a point. But it would be un-reasonable to
assume the .c file would be the preferred source.
Guy
-----Original Message-----
From: linux-scsi-owner@vger.kernel.org
[mailto:linux-scsi-owner@vger.kernel.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Massa
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 12:45 PM
To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Cc: debian-legal@lists.debian.org; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org;
linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: POSSIVEL SPAM-- Re: Binary-only firmware covered by the GPL?
@ 30/03/2004 14:09 : wrote Henning Makholm :
> Scripsit Humberto Massa <humberto.massa@almg.gov.br>
>
>>to modify the fw[], at least *legally* is MHO that any
>>recipient/redistributor of the file _can_ and _must_ consider the file
>>in *that* format as the preferred form for modification (pf4m) *and*,
>>considering it the source code, follow the directions of the GPL in
>>respect to modification and redistribution.
>
>
> No, law does not work that way. The phrase "preferred form for
> modification" has a clear enough, if somewhat fuzzy, literal meaning,
> and one cannot *implicitly* make it mean something that directly
> contrast to the literal meaning. If nobody *actually* prefers the
> binary blob for modification, then the binary blob is *not* the
> preferred form for modification. That's irrespective of whether the
> copyright holder behaves inconsistently.
Things could be different between jurisdictions, here the doctrine
says about the interpretation of contracts, licenses, and law: we obey
(1) what is written (2) what is implied by what is written (3) what is
derived from what is written via case law (4) what is derived from
what is written via the doctrine in law. In that order, and respecting
legislative hierarchies.
There is another fail in your reasons here: as I said before, it just
_happens_ to happen that fw[] = {} *is* the source code. What we must
decide is what to do in the cases where *we don't know*.
After all, what happens is somebody *actually* prefers the binary blob
for modification? And, what happens if _the copyright holder_ actually
prefers the binary blob for modification? No inconsistency here.
>
>
>>* the /status quo/ obtained by observation of the previous item
>>prevails _until somebody proves_ that the fw[] = {} is *not* the
>>source code;
>
>
> And Debian's approach to software freedom doesn't work that way
> either. We treat software as non-free and non-distributable unless and
> until we see good and self-consistent evidence that it is actually
> free and distributable. The "burden of proof", to the extent that
> expression applies, is always on the side that claims that the
> software in question is OK for Debian to distribute.
>
NOW you have a good argument. This mostly ends my line of reasoning.
In debian: in dubio, non-free. This is not really nice, but it's OK.
And I can live with that.
An addendum:
the DFSG does not define source code;
the GPL defines it as: "The source code for a work means the preferred
form of the work for making modifications to it.";
the AFL goes further: "The term "Source Code" means the preferred form
of the Original Work for making modifications to it and all available
documentation describing how to modify the Original Work.";
maybe a good definition of source code is something we are needing? in
the case of the AFL, not only { 0x0... } could be ruled out as source
code, but even some-unknown-dsp-asm-without-comments, too.
--
br,M
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread* Re: POSSIVEL SPAM-- Re: Binary-only firmware covered by the GPL?
2004-03-30 17:44 ` POSSIVEL SPAM-- Re: Binary-only firmware covered by the GPL? Humberto Massa
2004-03-30 23:48 ` Guy
@ 2004-03-31 5:47 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
1 sibling, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Valdis.Kletnieks @ 2004-03-31 5:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Humberto Massa; +Cc: debian-devel, debian-legal, linux-kernel, linux-scsi
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On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:44:32 -0300, Humberto Massa said:
> There is another fail in your reasons here: as I said before, it just
> _happens_ to happen that fw[] = {} *is* the source code. What we must
> decide is what to do in the cases where *we don't know*.
>
> After all, what happens is somebody *actually* prefers the binary blob
> for modification? And, what happens if _the copyright holder_ actually
> prefers the binary blob for modification? No inconsistency here.
In fact, I was going to suggest that quite possibly, there really *is* no other
option for source, because the target hardware doesn't have a functional enough
toolchain, so hand-assembly really *is* the most reasonable thing.
That file isn't any worse than my early '80s Compiler Design class project
(done the last year before lex/yacc became available for the class) - one file
was a large 247x139x3 (or thereabouts) array of integers, encoding all the
shift/reduce productions for a compiler for a Pascal subset that actually
generated working (though painfully ugly) code for the IBM S/370 architecture.
(The assignment was "Pascal subset plus your choice of one extension" - my
teammate and I made the mistake of choosing "Fortran-style mixed-mode
arithmetic", that array was literally 1/4 the size before we started that.)
"You are lost in a maze of tiny little shift/reduce productions, all nearly
alike"
And yes, the two of us generated the whole table by hand. I admit we did
finally break down and write some tools to verify that each line of the table
did in fact have the right number of entries, and to add a column of zeros when
the number of productions went up.
*Preferred* source format? lex/yacc input files. Did the source ever actually
*exist* in that format? Nope... :)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread