Re: Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

Re: Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Robert Lowery]

Hi Marcel,

At this point, I have not tried pulling the firmware apart, all I have done is telnetted into 
it and poked around a bit.

If I manage to get the kernel source, my next step will be to try and work out how to 
pull apart their firmware and repackage it with a custom kernel.

-Robert

> Marcel Holtmann <marcel@holtmann.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Robert,
> 
> > I recently purchase a Belkin Bluetooth Access Point with USB Print
> > Server
> > 
> http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_
> 
> > Id=200583&pcount=&Product_Id=134669
> > 
> > By telnetting into it, I was able to find that it runs linux,
> > specifically uClinux version 2.0.38.1pre7arm.
> > 
> > Investigating further, I found the device is made by
> > www.rovingnetworks.com
> > 
> > The latest version of firmware may be obtained from
> > http://www.belkin.com/firmware/bluetooth/f8t030/flash.bin or a beta
> > version that includes PAN support at
> > www.rovingnetworks.com/belkinpan4.bin
> > 
> > I contacted them at support@rovingnetworks.com  Mike Conrad replied 
> to
> > my request.
> > 
> > Initially, he said they wanted $5000 for a source code license.  When 
> I
> > Informed him of their GPL violation, he said
> > "you could possibly have the linux os changes we made, but our 
> bluetooth
> > stack, for example, is not covered under the GPL. And we have special
> > tools that enable web download, and  create the image that is loaded,
> > etc."
> > 
> > Looking at the running system, it is not running any kernel modules, 
> so
> > I would expect the bluetooth stack to be compiled into the kernel
> > proper, which in my understanding would mean they have to release the
> > source.
> 
> may you tell me how you extracted the kernel and the filesystem from 
> the
> firmware files. I wanna take a look at it and find out what Bluetooth
> stack they are using.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Marcel

Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Petr Titera]

Robert Lowery wrote:

>Hi Marcel,
>
>At this point, I have not tried pulling the firmware apart, all I have done is telnetted into 
>it and poked around a bit.
>
>If I manage to get the kernel source, my next step will be to try and work out how to 
>pull apart their firmware and repackage it with a custom kernel.
>
>-Robert
>
>  
>
Hello,

    I've try to look at firware image and it really seems that they do 
not use modules in kernel and that bluetooth drivers are compiled in. So it
really seems that they should either distribute source for their stack 
or do not distribute it at all.

Petr Titera


>>Marcel Holtmann <marcel@holtmann.org> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Robert,
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I recently purchase a Belkin Bluetooth Access Point with USB Print
>>>Server
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Id=200583&pcount=&Product_Id=134669
>>>
>>>By telnetting into it, I was able to find that it runs linux,
>>>specifically uClinux version 2.0.38.1pre7arm.
>>>
>>>Investigating further, I found the device is made by
>>>www.rovingnetworks.com
>>>
>>>The latest version of firmware may be obtained from
>>>http://www.belkin.com/firmware/bluetooth/f8t030/flash.bin or a beta
>>>version that includes PAN support at
>>>www.rovingnetworks.com/belkinpan4.bin
>>>
>>>I contacted them at support@rovingnetworks.com  Mike Conrad replied 
>>>      
>>>
>>to
>>    
>>
>>>my request.
>>>
>>>Initially, he said they wanted $5000 for a source code license.  When 
>>>      
>>>
>>I
>>    
>>
>>>Informed him of their GPL violation, he said
>>>"you could possibly have the linux os changes we made, but our 
>>>      
>>>
>>bluetooth
>>    
>>
>>>stack, for example, is not covered under the GPL. And we have special
>>>tools that enable web download, and  create the image that is loaded,
>>>etc."
>>>
>>>Looking at the running system, it is not running any kernel modules, 
>>>      
>>>
>>so
>>    
>>
>>>I would expect the bluetooth stack to be compiled into the kernel
>>>proper, which in my understanding would mean they have to release the
>>>source.
>>>      
>>>
>>may you tell me how you extracted the kernel and the filesystem from 
>>the
>>firmware files. I wanna take a look at it and find out what Bluetooth
>>stack they are using.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Marcel
>>    
>>
>-
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>

Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Timothy Miller]

Petr Titera wrote:

> Hello,
> 
>    I've try to look at firware image and it really seems that they do 
> not use modules in kernel and that bluetooth drivers are compiled in. So it
> really seems that they should either distribute source for their stack 
> or do not distribute it at all.
> 


Even if they did use modules, the module interface is not necessarily a 
GPL barrier.  The fact that the unit becomes useless if you remove the 
kernel or the bluetooth drivers means that it's a complete work and not 
merely an aggregate.

I don't understand why companies think they can get away with this kind 
of intellectual property theft.

I also don't understand why they don't use BSD instead.  They wouldn't 
have ANY of these problems.

Re: Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Robert Lowery]

Hi Denis

> > Looking at the running system, it is not running any kernel modules, 
> so
> > I would expect the bluetooth stack to be compiled into the kernel
> > proper, which in my understanding would mean they have to release the
> > source.
> 
> This means that their bluetooth stack is a derivative work of the 
> kernel
> and they _must_ give you source free of charge.
> Did you say that to Mike? What was the reply?
I did, but he either did not understand me or chose to ignore this.  I will try again, 
making this clear.

> > Would any one on the list be interested in taking this further?
> 
> Only owners of said hardware have right to request full source code
> of the modified Linux kernel and other GPLed software (uClibc?).
> If they do not give away source after many requests, owners may
> actually sue 'em.
I assume the copyyright holders also have this right (even if they don't own the 
hardware)

-Robert

Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Jeff Woods]

At 7/11/2004 04:08 PM +1000, Robert Lowery wrote:
>Hi Denis

I don't find the original of this message, but I presume that it's the 
words of "Denis" mentioned in the salutation:

>>This means that their bluetooth stack is a derivative work of the kernel 
>>and they _must_ give you source free of charge

Actually, the GPL says (in section 3.b):

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt says (in part):

"Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give 
any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically 
performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the 
corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 
and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange;"

If they offer to provide it on, for example, CD-R discs, they may charge 
for their actual cost of creating and shipping them, but no more; e.g. 
US$20 might be considered reasonable in such a case, but probably not 
US$100, and certainly not US$5000.

>>Only owners of said hardware have right to request full source code of 
>>the modified Linux kernel and other GPLed software (uClibc?). If they do 
>>not give away source after many requests, owners may actually sue 'em.
>
>I assume the copyyright holders also have this right (even if they don't 
>own the hardware).

The GPL is a copyright license which can only be enforced by the owner(s) 
of the copyright involved.  Note that 
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html says (in part):

"Note that the GPL, and other copyleft licenses, are copyright licenses. 
This means that only the copyright holders are empowered to act against 
violations. The FSF acts on all GPL violations reported on FSF copyrighted 
code, and we offer assistance to any other copyright holder who wishes to 
do the same."

I would think a company like Belkin has assets they would be wise to 
protect.  Perhaps they're offering to involuntarily fund open-source 
development.

--
Jeff Woods <kazrak+kernel@cesmail.net> 

[OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Robert Lowery]

I recently purchase a Belkin Bluetooth Access Point with USB Print
Server
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_
Id=200583&pcount=&Product_Id=134669

By telnetting into it, I was able to find that it runs linux,
specifically uClinux version 2.0.38.1pre7arm.

Investigating further, I found the device is made by
www.rovingnetworks.com

The latest version of firmware may be obtained from
http://www.belkin.com/firmware/bluetooth/f8t030/flash.bin or a beta
version that includes PAN support at
www.rovingnetworks.com/belkinpan4.bin

I contacted them at support@rovingnetworks.com  Mike Conrad replied to
my request.

Initially, he said they wanted $5000 for a source code license.  When I
Informed him of their GPL violation, he said
"you could possibly have the linux os changes we made, but our bluetooth
stack, for example, is not covered under the GPL. And we have special
tools that enable web download, and  create the image that is loaded,
etc."

Looking at the running system, it is not running any kernel modules, so
I would expect the bluetooth stack to be compiled into the kernel
proper, which in my understanding would mean they have to release the
source.

This was a few weeks ago.  I contacted him today to see what they had
decided and got
"The developer who works on it here was on vacation, now he is back but
swamped with work.  It is not a very high priority for us.  We may put
something out, but I would not hold your breath for it."

Would any one on the list be interested in taking this further?

My main interest in this would be be to add additional USB support eg
USB mass storage

-Robert

Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Robert,

> I recently purchase a Belkin Bluetooth Access Point with USB Print
> Server
> http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_
> Id=200583&pcount=&Product_Id=134669
> 
> By telnetting into it, I was able to find that it runs linux,
> specifically uClinux version 2.0.38.1pre7arm.
> 
> Investigating further, I found the device is made by
> www.rovingnetworks.com
> 
> The latest version of firmware may be obtained from
> http://www.belkin.com/firmware/bluetooth/f8t030/flash.bin or a beta
> version that includes PAN support at
> www.rovingnetworks.com/belkinpan4.bin
> 
> I contacted them at support@rovingnetworks.com  Mike Conrad replied to
> my request.
> 
> Initially, he said they wanted $5000 for a source code license.  When I
> Informed him of their GPL violation, he said
> "you could possibly have the linux os changes we made, but our bluetooth
> stack, for example, is not covered under the GPL. And we have special
> tools that enable web download, and  create the image that is loaded,
> etc."
> 
> Looking at the running system, it is not running any kernel modules, so
> I would expect the bluetooth stack to be compiled into the kernel
> proper, which in my understanding would mean they have to release the
> source.

may you tell me how you extracted the kernel and the filesystem from the
firmware files. I wanna take a look at it and find out what Bluetooth
stack they are using.

Regards

Marcel

Re: [OT] Belkin Bluetooth Access Point GPL violation

[Kyle Moffett]

On Jul 09, 2004, at 20:34, Robert Lowery wrote:
> Would any one on the list be interested in taking this further?

I managed to obtain some sources, I can't tell immediately how complete
they are, but they do seem to incorporate some BlueTooth stuff.  A 
tarball
is available at http://www.rovingnetworks.com/accesspoint.tgz  Thanks to
Mike Conrad at RovingNetworks for providing the sources without much
hassle!

I believe that all of these are under GPL, but please confirm before you
assume so by looking through the sources yourself.

NOTE: Mike said that it is _very_ easy to completely bork your wireless
access point if you try to upgrade its kernel.  It _doesn't_ have a 
flash
ROM that can be removed for reprogramming, so BE CAREFUL.  I am
personally most interested in their BlueTooth stack and other non-2.0
stuff.  It might be useless to us, but there's probably somebody that
would find it handy.

Cheers,
Kyle Moffett

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