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From: James Bruce <bruce@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Tom Felker <tfelker2@uiuc.edu>
Cc: lm@bitmover.com, Matthew Jacob <lydianconcepts@gmail.com>,
	Jeff Sipek <jeffpc@optonline.net>,
	Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz <bzolnier@gmail.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [BK] upgrade will be needed
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:04:21 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4211BB15.9020100@andrew.cmu.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200502141530.47019.tfelker2@uiuc.edu>

I agree with this 100%, and this is exactly the same conclusion we came 
to in our research lab.

Tom Felker wrote:
> I really think the fewer restrictions you put on BK's use, the less likely it 
> will be copied.  When the open source community copies something, it's not out 
> of a desire to screw somebody over.  It's because they had an itch, a 
> software need that couldn't easily be fulfilled otherwise, a demand.
> 
> Apparently there is a demand for good SCM, and BK can satisfy this, and you've 
> done the very admirable thing of letting the open source community use BK at 
> no cost.  But by putting such a heavy restriction on its use, you create a 
> large portion of the community who won't or can't use it, and who therefore 
> need a "copy" of it, which is exactly what you are trying to prevent.
> ...
> Better for you would be to just not create this segment in the first place, by 
> making the license as unrestrictive as you can while still making money.  If 
> you take the non-compete clause out and leave it at "open repository and 
> logs," then BT would be good enough for most everybody, and you wouldn't have 
> to worry about a copy until after we're all using the Hurd.

One person (out of 20 or so), refused to use BK   because he 
occasionally worked on a binary tree-diff in his spare time.  He was, of 
course, properly following the BK-free license, but it meant the 
projects he worked on never got switched from CVS, while everything else 
went BK.  It also kept us looking for replacements to make everyone 
happy.  We consider every possible alternative, even though by most 
measures they are inferior (There isn't an SCM that I've heard of that 
someone in our lab hasn't tried using).  The peer pressure, if you will, 
also made the holdout *more* involved in SCM development, which is 
almost surely *not* a help for BitMover.  New projects are not being put 
in BK anymore, either.

Maybe this is an overly long and excessively detailed account, but my 
interpretation of it is the following:  Without the no-compete (1) We'd 
all be using BK happily, (2) The holdout would not be working on an SCM 
anymore, and (3) Other SCM projects would not get the user testing they 
now enjoy from us.  I cannot speak for anyone else, but this is the 
effect on our lab, and for us, the clause has hurt BitMover's stated 
intention, not helped it.

  - Jim Bruce

P.S. According to what is now legend, one of the things that drove RMS 
to the FSF philosophy was a person at CMU who wouldn't share printer 
driver source code with him.
(http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/rms-bio.html)

  reply	other threads:[~2005-02-15  9:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 157+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2005-02-14  2:08 [BK] upgrade will be needed Larry McVoy
2005-02-14  6:02 ` Matthew Jacob
2005-02-14  6:17   ` Adam Sulmicki
2005-02-14  9:49 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-02-14 12:08 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2005-02-14 15:08   ` Jeff Sipek
2005-02-14 15:40     ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 16:21       ` linux-os
2005-02-14 17:12         ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-16 23:55           ` Pavel Machek
2005-02-17 20:33           ` David Weinehall
2005-02-17 21:31             ` Chris Wright
2005-02-14 17:14       ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-02-14 17:23         ` Russell Miller
2005-02-14 17:49           ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 18:33             ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-02-14 18:47             ` Steven Rostedt
     [not found]               ` <20050214190137.GB16029@bitmover.com>
     [not found]                 ` <1108415541.8413.48.camel@localhost.localdomain>
     [not found]                   ` <20050214231148.GP13174@bitmover.com>
     [not found]                     ` <1108425420.8413.78.camel@localhost.localdomain>
     [not found]                       ` <20050215000028.GS13174@bitmover.com>
     [not found]                         ` <1108426451.8413.84.camel@localhost.localdomain>
     [not found]                           ` <20050215003535.GB32158@bitmover.com>
2005-02-15  1:00                             ` Steven Rostedt
2005-02-15  3:01                               ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-15  3:39                                 ` Steven Rostedt
2005-02-15 14:05                                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2005-02-14 19:29             ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 21:13               ` Erik Andersen
2005-02-14 18:17       ` Matthew Jacob
2005-02-14 18:36         ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-02-14 18:45           ` Matthew Jacob
2005-02-14 20:02           ` Matthias Andree
2005-02-15  5:13           ` Scott Lockwood
2005-02-14 18:56         ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 20:36           ` Adrian Bunk
2005-02-14 21:25             ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-02-14 23:02               ` Henrik Persson
2005-02-14 21:30           ` Tom Felker
2005-02-15  9:04             ` James Bruce [this message]
2005-02-16 17:31             ` Jeff Sipek
2005-02-14 23:24           ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-02-15  3:35             ` Horst von Brand
2005-02-15  5:23               ` Hua Zhong
2005-02-15 12:19           ` kernel
2005-02-15 12:45             ` linux-os
2005-02-15 13:39               ` Helge Hafting
2005-02-16  9:45             ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-16 10:21               ` Catalin Marinas
2005-02-16 13:40                 ` Schwaighofer Clemens
2005-02-16 15:39               ` d.c
2005-02-17  0:14                 ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-16 15:43               ` Olivier Galibert
2005-02-16 17:01                 ` Sean
2005-02-17  0:11                 ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-17  4:57                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-02-17  5:57                     ` Sean
2005-02-17  6:22                       ` d.c
2005-02-17  6:49                         ` Sean
2005-02-17 16:34                           ` Lee Revell
2005-02-17 16:40                             ` Sean
2005-02-17 16:55                               ` Chris Friesen
2005-02-17 16:58                                 ` Sean
2005-02-17 20:52                                   ` Horst von Brand
2005-02-17 21:24                                     ` Sean
2005-02-18  1:42                                       ` Horst von Brand
2005-02-18  7:52                                         ` Sean
2005-02-18 16:27                                           ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-02-18 18:34                                             ` Sean
2005-02-18 19:26                                               ` Dmitry Torokhov
2005-02-18 19:31                                                 ` Sean
2005-02-18 19:46                                                   ` John Stoffel
2005-02-18 19:49                                                   ` Dmitry Torokhov
2005-02-18 19:57                                                     ` Sean
2005-02-19  0:59                                                       ` Horst von Brand
2005-02-18 20:45                                               ` d.c
2005-02-18 21:13                                                 ` David S. Miller
2005-02-18 21:34                                                   ` Anton Altaparmakov
2005-02-18 22:18                                                     ` Vojtech Pavlik
2005-02-18 22:35                                                       ` Dmitry Torokhov
2005-02-19  7:53                                                         ` Anton Altaparmakov
2005-02-23 19:15                                                 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-02-21  5:43                                             ` Miles Bader
2005-02-21  6:56                                               ` Dmitry Torokhov
2005-02-21  7:00                                                 ` N/A Christof Dorner
2005-02-21 15:40                                                 ` [BK] upgrade will be needed Kevin P. Fleming
2005-02-17 23:25                                   ` Ed Tomlinson
2005-02-17 23:32                                     ` Sean
2005-02-17 23:54                                       ` Lee Revell
2005-02-17 23:56                                         ` Sean
2005-02-18  4:00                                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-02-18  4:03                                         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-18  7:26                                         ` Sean
2005-02-18 12:31                                           ` Ed Tomlinson
2005-02-18  0:29                     ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-18  2:31                       ` Horst von Brand
2005-02-17  7:55                   ` Roland Kuhn
2005-02-17  8:09                     ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-17  9:27                       ` Roland Kuhn
2005-02-17 10:27                         ` Sean
2005-02-18  0:32                           ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2005-02-14 18:54       ` Juergen Stuber
2005-02-14 20:13         ` Matthew Dharm
2005-02-14 20:17         ` Matthias Andree
2005-02-15 17:26           ` Juergen Stuber
2005-02-15  2:46         ` Tristan Wibberley
2005-02-15 13:24           ` Tristan Wibberley
2005-02-14 19:44       ` Matthias Andree
2005-02-14 20:05         ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 22:24           ` Gerold Jury
2005-02-14 22:57             ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 23:23               ` David Lang
2005-02-15  0:03                 ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-15  1:23                   ` David Lang
2005-02-15 16:34                   ` Olivier Galibert
2005-02-14 23:29               ` Gerold Jury
2005-02-15 13:55                 ` Alexandre Oliva
2005-02-15 16:57                   ` Alan Cox
2005-02-17  0:00                   ` Pavel Machek
2005-02-17  1:41                     ` Alexandre Oliva
2005-02-17  9:46                     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2005-02-17 12:36                       ` Pavel Machek
2005-02-17 14:07                         ` Citizen Number 24655
2005-02-17 15:05                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-02-17 16:27                       ` Florian Weimer
2005-02-18  8:32           ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-15  2:13       ` Ed Tomlinson
2005-02-15  2:40         ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-15  3:04           ` Paul Jackson
2005-02-15 12:41           ` Ed Tomlinson
2005-02-15 13:56           ` Alexandre Oliva
2005-02-15 14:55             ` Anton Ertl
2005-02-14 13:13 ` Mws
2005-02-14 15:03   ` Steven Rostedt
2005-02-14 16:00     ` Larry McVoy
2005-02-14 17:21       ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-02-15 12:13       ` kernel
2005-02-16 23:46       ` Pavel Machek
2005-02-18  8:56     ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-18  2:05 ` Patrick McFarland
2005-02-18  2:24   ` [darcs-users] " Tupshin Harper
2005-02-18  2:33     ` Sean
2005-02-18  9:09     ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-18 10:58       ` Tomasz Zielonka
2005-02-18 11:53       ` Erik Bågfors
2005-02-18 12:50         ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-19  9:10           ` Patrick McFarland
2005-02-19 10:17             ` Sean
2005-02-19 16:42             ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-19 17:15               ` David Roundy
2005-02-19 17:53                 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-21 12:41                   ` David Roundy
2005-02-21 18:33                     ` David Brown
2005-02-21 13:48                   ` Patrick McFarland
2005-02-20 10:36                 ` Ralph Corderoy
2005-02-18 17:50       ` Dustin Sallings
2005-02-21  5:39         ` Miles Bader
2005-02-21 15:53           ` Andrea Arcangeli
2005-02-21 19:45             ` zander
2005-02-21 20:27               ` Horst von Brand
2005-02-23 17:14               ` Andreas Gruenbacher
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2005-02-14 21:08 Martin Fouts
2005-02-14 21:20 Martin Fouts

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